Hunt moose to save caribou?

[GunMunKey]

Check out this article in the NY Times and let me know what you think.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.n...ribou.amp.html

I'm not buying it but I'd like to hear from two groups of people on this. Firstly, anyone here in BC have a moose population 16:1 better than white tail? And the second could any southern native let me know if your ancestors didn't know what a moose was. I wrote an email to the PhD from the University of Alberta that is quoted in the article and expressed my doubts about the accuracy of his information. Here is his reply:

Southern BC First Nations bands had no historic word for moose. The northeast BC and Alberta Bands all do of course (ie boreal forest bands).*
If you've ever been north of Revelstoke you'd know that moose far outnumber WT deer. Every hunter knows that.
Robert Serrouya.

He responds quickly to emails so feel free to direct questions regarding this matter to him. I also wrote to NY Times but have not received a response. Am I the ******* here? Feel free to answer that honestly.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by GunMunKey

Check out this article in the NY Times and let me know what you think.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/mobile.n...ribou.amp.html

I'm not buying it but I'd like to hear from two groups of people on this. Firstly, anyone here in BC have a moose population 16:1 better than white tail? And the second could any southern native let me know if your ancestors didn't know what a moose was. I wrote an email to the PhD from the University of Alberta that is quoted in the article and expressed my doubts about the accuracy of his information. Here is his reply:

Southern BC First Nations bands had no historic word for moose. The northeast BC and Alberta Bands all do of course (ie boreal forest bands).*
If you've ever been north of Revelstoke you'd know that moose far outnumber WT deer. Every hunter knows that.
Robert Serrouya.

He responds quickly to emails so feel free to direct questions regarding this matter to him. I also wrote to NY Times but have not received a response. Am I the ******* here? Feel free to answer that honestly.

I've actually read the summary of Dr. Serrouya's Thesis on this subject (which he did while completing his PhD at the U of A).

One question I had, more of a curiosity, is maybe ....."are you applying to much complexity to a simple event?"

To me, it's as simple as follows ...

1) Wolves eat Moose and Caribou.

2) Maybe Moose are better (easier targets when looking at energy, % success rates, the amount of protein per "hour" of effort expended, etc...) versus the Caribou which are smaller, with less meat, maybe harder to catch because the herd warns them, etc...

3) Easier targets (Moose) are preferred. Predators prefer cohabitation near the best food sources, and behaviours, both instinctual and learned, are tuned to that food source and it takes years to change that/modify behaviours.

4) Hunters kill Moose removing the primary food source for wolves.

5) Wolf numbers, when there is less food, will decline (usually in the form of smaller litters)

6) Less Wolves and less Moose equals more Caribou because there are less wolves to pressure the Caribou.

That would be my initial hypothesis - but of course, I didn't spend years on the study, he did. So if he says otherwise, he's more likely to be right than I am.

[Imagehunter]

Sorry if it's a stupid question as I'm not hunting, but if there are moose, wolves and caribou in one area and hunters kill all the moose, wouldn't the wolves just eat something different then? Like elk, deer or the caribou? Aren't those smaller than moose and easier to kill for them?

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Imagehunter

Sorry if it's a stupid question as I'm not hunting, but if there are moose, wolves and caribou in one area and hunters kill all the moose, wouldn't the wolves just eat something different then? Like elk, deer or the caribou? Aren't those smaller than moose and easier to kill for them?

Predators will definitely adapt to available food sources, however, think of it this way.

On your dinner plate there is meat, potatoes and veg.

Take the meat away ..... and yes, you still have your potatoes and veg, just not as much, it total to eat, and maybe not the best source of calories.

I don't know. My thoughts are just that ..... thoughts.

I'm also thinking that herd animals are generally harder to catch (as maybe for one in every five attempts works). I'm guessing Moose would be easier to catch and kill - but even if Moose is the same, one in five attempts ....the difference is - 500 lbs of meat per moose versus 200 lbs of meat for a caribou.

If that was the case, wolves would definitely be targeting and adapting to the moose.

If moose numbers were to fall, the wolf numbers would likely follow.

But, I do agree, after a period of adaptation, the wolves would be on the Caribou - although maybe there would be less wolves.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Imagehunter

Sorry if it's a stupid question as I'm not hunting, but if there are moose, wolves and caribou in one area and hunters kill all the moose, wouldn't the wolves just eat something different then? Like elk, deer or the caribou? Aren't those smaller than moose and easier to kill for them?

Maybe the wolves prefer moose to caribou? I do!

My most serious guess would be that moose are easier for a pack to kill. Moose are usually found in smaller groups and often loners. If moose are plentiful and they are easier targets and the meat pay off is more, they will be the preferred food. When the pack is ready to eat moose will be the first thing on their minds. There are probably wolves out there that for the most part only hunt moose. When the moose are fewer and the packs become smaller the wolves will go to another food source but the hunt may be more difficult and the picking slimmer. Maybe the wolves just move on to where there is more moose?

I think wolves and moose go through cycles and wolves and moose are connected. Moose also have a preferred food source and once that is gone or depleted their numbers will drop. Moose seem to like willow for food so wolves depend on willow to indirectly provide their meal.

or maybe the wolves just prefer moose to caribou?

Maybe this is a stupid answer?

Maybe if there were wolves and moose and caribou and an infestation of mice and rabbits the wolves would leave the moose alone.

[Imagehunter]

Interesting, thought moose would be harder to kill since they're bigger.
Grew up in Europe where wolves only returned in 2000 or so and they're protected year round. To prevent them killing farm animals they're using dogs and fences, but it seems the wolves just smarten up and look for easy alternatives in the area. If sheep are protected, they go after cows or vice versa. Thought they would do the same in the wild, just go for what's there and easy to kill.

[Au revoir, Gopher]

I think it is a stupid question!

"You like caribou. You like wolves. How do you preserve one without killing the other?"

Answer: kill something else instead! WTF...

Oh dear... bambi and thumper are about to be eaten by the wolf! What to do?!? I know, shot the aardvark, who likes fu###g aardvarks anyway?

It is pretty simple, predators eat prey. Wolves might prefer moose (for what ever reason) but if a moose isn't there and a caribou is I don't think the pack will collectively say "crap! I don't like stink'n caribou... lets go to Wendy's and get a moose burger"

ARG

[Talking moose]

Wolves are opportunistic. Whatever is deemed an easy kill with minimal chance for being injured is fair game. If the cons outweigh the pros, they will move on in search.

[GunMunKey]

And what about the 16:1 moose to whitetail. Fact or fiction? And southern BC natives didn't know what a moose was?

[Drewski Canuck]

Wolves eat Moose.

Wolves are opportunistic.

Moose get hit on the Highway, and are dead anyway.

1080 kills canines, and the poison can take out a whole pack, meaning no Alphas rising up to become TWO PACKS.

Put on the poison, monitor in the winter, and kill Pack after Pack after Pack as they continue to feed on the same carcass as new packs move into the old Pack's territory.

Cariboo AND MOOSE flourish as there are no more wolves in the area because you took out many packs over a long winter.

Now, can I have my Grant Money PLEASE!!!!

Drewski

[Bighorn River]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Big healthy moose population in place that didn't have many wolves before will support bigger wolf population that will also prey on caribou opportunistically.

Lower moose pops, wolves move on or at lower densities. Looks like he has the data to prove it.

The question is - if Alberta is serious about helping to keep its caribou around, why doesn't it have unlimited seasons for deer and increased for moose in WMUs adjacent to caribou ranges?

[Big Grey Wolf]

This theory is confirmed by many olden day trappers in BC. They had no moose but lots of caribou. Then as moose moved onto their traplines the wolf population increased significantly and caribou started to disappear. This was in the early 1900's , one trapper even gauged moose migration south at about 20 miles per year. Lots of fat moose meat, strong healthy wolf killing machines in large packs!

[NCC]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Wolves eat Moose.

Wolves are opportunistic.

Moose get hit on the Highway, and are dead anyway.

1080 kills canines, and the poison can take out a whole pack, meaning no Alphas rising up to become TWO PACKS.

Put on the poison, monitor in the winter, and kill Pack after Pack after Pack as they continue to feed on the same carcass as new packs move into the old Pack's territory.

Cariboo AND MOOSE flourish as there are no more wolves in the area because you took out many packs over a long winter.


Now, can I have my Grant Money PLEASE!!!!

Drewski

Make sense to me. Target the wolves, not the moose. By the time the moose disappear it will be too late for the caribou as the wolves will wipe out what's left of the caribou once the moose are depleted.

[Drewski Canuck]

Actually, there were some news articles back in 2014 when the poison programs were started around Grande Cache that noted the poisoned wolf would often regurgitate the meat, which would then be eaten by another wolf!!!

They actually were taking out whole packs at a time on a single bait site, and then when the new pack rolled in, taking those ones out too.

What you have to remember is that each wolf eats an average of 14 big game animals a year. Moose, Deer, Caribou, ....

On the other hand, we can let the Caribou go endangered around Grande Cache, Nipisi, Rock Island Lake, Conklin, ....

Just imagine the fun the Feds will have when the Endangered designation occurs. Why SRD will be besides itself losing jurisdiction.

NDP or not, the Government of Alberta is at risk of losing control of all the industry on northern Crown land where the Caribou are.

They really can't afford that.

Either can we.

Either can the few Caribou that might be left.

Drewski