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Old 10-23-2017, 02:58 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Default Finding the Accurate Load

Here's a little trick at finding the accurate load for a given powder, bullet, primer, and case for a particular rifle.

The fastest way to the water line let's say.

When working up a load for small cases I do it by 0.5 of a grain,,, larger cases go by 6%.between the loads.

Example using the 308 winchester starting at the middle to max where a person can just start to feel the sticky bolt handle lift. ***Caution Since some Rifles Should not be Loaded to Max***

40
40.5
41
41.5
42
42.5
43
43.5
44
44.5
45
45.5
46 and so on till I feel a sticky bolt handle on ejection.

I'm trying to find the highest "Node," and one just bellow it, and it allows the barrel to set into the fowl mode for consistany before attempting long range shooting.
Normally about 100 shoots. If it doesn't look good down range, then I'll do another 100 rounds on top of that.

Up goes the 3 tall targets, and I sight in to either side of the Bulls-eye,,, that way I can see the water line better.
300 yards is not bad, 600 is better,,, and 700 out to 1000 yards shows the spacings better.
It is wize to do this with zero wind, the best of the best table and rest as well as a rifle that can pull off some accurate shoots. More so for target rifles,,, there are hunting that fit this category to.

So I load 3 cartrages the same volume of powder,,, and Mark them with the same colour,,, if I run out of colours I repeat use them all over again.

Keep in mind that we remember what grain of powder we start with and go to the next highest charge after that as we climb the ladder.

2 things are going to show up on paper.

The 1st shot to 2nd and 3rd might be tight as the 4th and 5th start to rise up the paper,,, maybe the 7th & 8th tighten up as the 9th and 10th begin to spread.

Or the spread could start off the get go then tighten up with another spread as it startes to tighten up when we notice the bolt handle is starting to get sticky,,, if this happens, then its wize to go to the Node where it seen its best grouping.

A chronograph is handy as it let's us know what ft-per second the particular loaded cartrages are producing,,, that way if we change powder lots, primers bullets or cases at a later date we have a place to start if we need to work the ladder since 1 or more of the components have changed.

So.

The 40gr first as I shot 1 into each target.
40.5 doing the same thing.
41gr and so on.

All 3 target groups should look the same for lateral as I'm trying to find the tight water line,,, I'm not even thinking about right to left.
The spread of charges that show signs on the paper are the ones where the barrel is at its less vibration / or the closet to the Node we are looking for.

There could be 5 or 7 Nodes per rifle,,, finding the ones closest to max is handy in load development,,, the lower Nodes are good for plinking as well as the gals and youngers as it limits the recoil on them.

Any-who,,, let's say we find close groupings between 41.5gr to 42.5 before the bullets start to rise,,, this is the place we might want to start fine tuning.
0.2gr between 41.5, then 41.7, next is 41.9 and so on up past the 42.5gr when things started to spread.

The selected case, primer, powder, and bullets you are using will show good signs of being accurate so long as the rifle, shooter, table and rest are up to the task.

Like I mentioned in the above,,, don't try this on a Windy day, and us the shooters have to be at our best,,, along with a solid table and rest...

We will know if the rifle is up for this when we get started on making the ladder on paper,,, the further the target the more we can see the ladder in action.

So either something is not working,,, us, the rifle, the shooting platform or the mix of the cartrage is not in sink.
If this is the case, then something is going to need addressing. "If one chooses to that is."
If it's a Harvesting rifle and 2 or 3 MOA is good for 100 to 160 yards then your pretty much ready to go.

If things are working out and we find that 42.1gr's is the sweet spot,,, now it's time to play with seating depth...
Just off the lands or a ways back from them.

I like to start with 0.20th thousands of lands when starting the ladder.
So I'll do 3 cartrages at 0.20, then 0.15 next 0.10 and 0.5th thousand,,,
I never put a bullet on the lands for 2 reasons.

First is that as the barrel heats up it grows. At 0.10 thou the chamber when hot will meet up with the Octave of the bullet.

Second is that if a person is using this rifle and cartrage for Harvesting game,,, its kinda crappy to jam one into the chamber then not take the shot.
Yank back on the bolt and find out the case came back,,, but the bullet is now stuck in the throat or rifling.

The other seating depths get seated in further,,, 0.25, then 0.30 and so on to 0.40 thou.
I call this the jump-slam as some rifles like it, and other don't.
Even 0.20 thou off the lands is a jump.

There will be 7 targets down range for the seating depth thing as I'm looking for the best group.
Again,,, water line up and down only.

When I do this test I use 2 different powders yet the cases, primers, bullets remain the same.

I have learned a few things this year of the many things yet to learn,,, try different things, either the rifle shoots good fowled up or better when clean.

Shoot lots and bring family and friends into this,,, and focus on 1 thing at a time on a shoot,,, kinda like archery as we brake each step of our shooting format into separate groups.

Once we have practised each step multiple times it all comes together.

This happens with our shooting format,,, and hopefully our rifles and ammo as well.

My claim to fame is just trying different things, hopefully it produces better accuracy down range. LOL

PS: One thing about the ladder test is it allows the rifles to seat in,,, copper fowling is ok in my books since I hate clean bores. Ha

Don

Last edited by Don_Parsons; 10-23-2017 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:07 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
First is that as the barrel heats up it grows. At 0.10 thou the chamber when hot will meet up with the Octave of the bullet.
Firstly, what is the "Octave"? Secondly as the barrel heats up, the chamber will grow in length, it won't become shorter.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:27 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Firstly, what is the "Octave"? Secondly as the barrel heats up, the chamber will grow in length, it won't become shorter.
Yes, the barrel grows as it heats up, 2 fellows at the range this year seated their bullets just off the lands by 0.005 thou as the barrels heated up the bullets ended up touching the lands,,, they went to eject the bullets and they were stuck solid.

Nothing major as they went home and tapped them out with their cleaning rods.

My bad, ,, Ogive. I think this is the proper term of thousands 0.001 could be off by a decimal point

Don

Last edited by Don_Parsons; 10-23-2017 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:28 PM
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he meant "Ogive".....


holly crab......."0.5 thou".....what? bullet stuck because of 0.0005???????
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:36 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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The first one as a 223 in rapped fire, the other was a 308.

I have never seen it in all my years, not sure if the powder grew from the time they loaded them our what happened.

Both fellows were running compressed loads, I heard it is possible over time that the power could push the bullets forward.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:43 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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If I had Photobucket I'd load the pictures of the ladders from my 30/06, I found a nice load using H-4350 @ 55.3gr shooting 178gr ELD-X bullets.

This rifle likes it, but its not friendly in my brothers rifle.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:46 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Yes, the barrel grows as it heats up, 2 fellows at the range this year seated their bullets just off the lands by 0.5 thou as the barrels heated up the bullets ended up touching the lands,,, they went to eject the bullets and they were stuck solid.

Nothing major as they went home and tapped them out with their cleaning rods.

My bad, ,, Ogive.

Don
The chamber grows in length and in diameter as it heats up. The only explanation is that the loaded rounds were left in the barrel long enough for the cartridge case to expand more than the chamber due to the higher co efficient of thermal expansion of brass vs steel. Why would they leave loaded rounds in the barrel for that long, in multiple rifles, and not fire them? Something just doesn't add up.
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Old 10-23-2017, 04:01 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I'm not sure why either. They could of chambered them mistakenly as they were spotting there hits on paper down range.

Once they realized that their bullets were off target he ejected the round as it was stuck in the rifling pretty tight.

His friend tried tapping it out, but like you mentioned,,, the barrel cooled off and the bullet was then stuck.

I've been lucky seating 0.020 off the lands so I've stayed with this for the harvest season,,, I'll team up with another fellow this winter to play with the seating depth stuff.

The ladder test was sure easy to do thanks to the folks at the range for helping me get that part sorted. LOL.
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:21 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I can have a good laugh now looking back at my first ladder tests that went south.

Using 1 target wasn't working for me since I was shooting 5 shoots of one grain of powder, then .5gr up for the next volly.

Doing this at close range made it hard to see the ladder affect, it wasn't till one of the old timers took my target down to the 300m mark that it started happening.

The best thing that happened a few weeks after that was running into a fellow member at our range that took this test to its next level.

We went down range and hung up targets at the 600M mark, then returned to our normal shooting stuff letting those target wait for the calm of the evening.

Both of us probably shoot 100+ rounds that day,,, then he said its time.

The flags were hang down and we were in the game.
We both took our time shooting our ladders.

His ladder was much tighter than mine since he was shooting a 7mm Rum.

His over all spread was close on his first 3 different 6% powder increases,,, then it started to spread out.

Mine was spread out at first, then started tightening up,,, my powder charges started at the bottom suggested loads from the book, so I had a lot of cartrages to shoot from 46.5 to 57.5 grains in .5gr increments.

Good thing we did the 3 tall targets and 1 bullet per change on each of them.
Then 47gr rounds, 47.5 and so on.

The only reason we knew we were close was that he could see sand kicking up behind the back stop.
I didn't even think I was hitting the paper little lone the back stop.

Any ways. I got lucky and managed to hit all 3 targets and the pattern was spot on.
This was a first for me.
My friend was dead eye on his 3 targets since he had done this a few times over the years.

The best ladder tests he has done is at the 700 to 1000 mark.
This is where the spread really stands out.

So latter this summer I went out west to shoot the 1 km.
He was right.
A good spread of 9" is really a tight group at that distance,,, 18" gap between the charges as things would open up... Id slowly incress the charges .5 of a grain till the rifle barrel would get to its next Node.

Just happen to get lucky as I found a primer, case, powder charge and bullet that all seem to work together.

Had it not, then I would of had to go back to the drawing board.

I knew my rifle was up to the task, I wasn't 100% sure if I was, and the only track record of the loads that went out west were the ones that did the 600M test.

Lucky for sure.

It won't be long before I get my new long range rifle going this winter. It to will see the ladder test followed by the box and run.

Like I said in my above post,,, I'm all new to this load development stuff since it is different then the lazy harvest loads from years ago.

I only hope that I see consistency in the years to come.

Don

Last edited by Don_Parsons; 10-23-2017 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:32 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Don’t know if my experience with load development has much value to anybody else, but here is what I have come to believe.
First, unless one is really good at “measuring” and has good instruments, avoid flirting with seating at the lands. Generally, seating .010” jump or .010 jamb will put you you cleanly “out” or “in”. (Having one round a little off, and the next one a little in can result in unpredicable pressure variations...best to be firmly “out” or firmly “in”.)
Second, there is a much better chance of misleading information comming from 3 shot groups than from those containing 5 shots.
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Old 10-23-2017, 05:52 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Don’t know if my experience with load development has much value to anybody else, but here is what I have come to believe.
First, unless one is really good at “measuring” and has good instruments, avoid flirting with seating at the lands. Generally, seating .010” jump or .010 jamb will put you you cleanly “out” or “in”. (Having one round a little off, and the next one a little in can result in unpredicable pressure variations...best to be firmly “out” or firmly “in”.)
Second, there is a much better chance of misleading information comming from 3 shot groups than from those containing 5 shots.
X2
I was taught to always shoot 5 shot groups
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Old 10-23-2017, 06:59 PM
duceman duceman is offline
 
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i would like to be your component supplier please............
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1. People who list their arguments in bullets points or numerical order generally come off as condescending pecker heads.

2. #1 is true.
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:35 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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I hear yha 260,,, the consistency of 3 is less then 5 doing the ladder test,,, one can always more of them on days that permit it.

One test is better than none,,, over the last few months I've done a few of them, not during the harvest season since its on the go out west.

The new rifle will see a few of these tests coming up,,, sure nice having the 3 targets to verify the water line.
It was a bit confusing doing the cluster on 1 target, each person gets to choose what works since there is many different ways to get it sorted.

The idea that I brought up is only a suggestion as we can add to it or make it simpler.

A person could do it in 10 shot interment if that's what's needed. I find the heavy barrel rifles are kind of forgiving,,, that's a plus for load development.

Might have to go to 5 shots when my harvest rifle goes in for its winter work over.

Always glad to share

Don
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Old 10-23-2017, 08:46 PM
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What are "fowl" shots. I thought they were for shooting chickens.
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Old 10-23-2017, 10:12 PM
James 1 James 1 is offline
 
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When developing rounds this way. What is your experience with how the rifles perform when complete?
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:02 AM
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I've always tried to ensure that any experiment I do has variables controlled - the condition of the barrel (temperature) has always been on my mind when doing something like this.

Do you start your testing using a cold barrel? What is the effect of a barrel on it's accuracy as it gets hotter and hotter? do you let it cool down periodically?

Just curious if that's a concern or issue or does it not matter as much as I think it does.
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Old 10-25-2017, 12:28 PM
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Do you have any original material, Don?

You're worse than an anorexic girl.
Regurgitating everything you take in.

Most shooters aren't in possession of the necessary skill set to adequately decern much from a ladder test let alone exploit its nuances.

Shoot for groups, rinse and repeat. The trigger time will serve them well.
Walking before running is best.
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:38 PM
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Hopefully I am not hijacking this thread, and adding some useful info. I am very new at this Load development. I am also not a very good shot and need to spend more time behind the trigger. I read about the 10 round load development test, I liked what I saw, and thought why not, it will take out the initial precision component of load development, especially with the winds we've been having. I found it very interesting the trend in velocity vs load charge. Sure I needed to purchase a Magnetospeed to accurately do this, but heck its an expensive hobby so why not. From here I can pick my best velocity node and try several groupings at a target and hopefully have a hunting round that this gun likes. in my test I went up in .3 grain increments and fired 27 rounds till I had some pressure issues.
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Old 10-25-2017, 04:52 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tasco View Post
Hopefully I am not hijacking this thread, and adding some useful info. I am very new at this Load development. I am also not a very good shot and need to spend more time behind the trigger. I read about the 10 round load development test, I liked what I saw, and thought why not, it will take out the initial precision component of load development, especially with the winds we've been having. I found it very interesting the trend in velocity vs load charge. Sure I needed to purchase a Magnetospeed to accurately do this, but heck its an expensive hobby so why not. From here I can pick my best velocity node and try several groupings at a target and hopefully have a hunting round that this gun likes. in my test I went up in .3 grain increments and fired 27 rounds till I had some pressure issues.
Just curious, but how much did you reduce your powder charge after noticing pressure signs?
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Old 10-25-2017, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Just curious, but how much did you reduce your powder charge after noticing pressure signs?
That's where I stopped testing. Now I get to go through the data and decide what the best velocity node is. I'm thinking it's about 41.5 grains. I'll need to wait till the wind dies down to take some group shots to verify this.
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:17 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tasco View Post
Hopefully I am not hijacking this thread, and adding some useful info. I am very new at this Load development. I am also not a very good shot and need to spend more time behind the trigger. I read about the 10 round load development test, I liked what I saw, and thought why not, it will take out the initial precision component of load development, especially with the winds we've been having. I found it very interesting the trend in velocity vs load charge. Sure I needed to purchase a Magnetospeed to accurately do this, but heck its an expensive hobby so why not. From here I can pick my best velocity node and try several groupings at a target and hopefully have a hunting round that this gun likes. in my test I went up in .3 grain increments and fired 27 rounds till I had some pressure issues.
You may be very new at load development but you are certainly on the right track and posting just what this thread needed. The graph clearly illustrates the pressure spikes which are usually followed by a leveling off of pressure for a couple of increments. If you were shooting on a target loads 41.2, 41.5 and 41.8 would group into a small cluster if you are shooting up to your rifles potential. While you are not up to Hornady's Max charge of 44.0 grains you are over their max velocity of 2700 fps for various 150-155 grain bullets. If you load 5 at 41.4, 41.5 and 46.5 respectively you will likely find the most accurate load over a range of conditions and the load with the lowest ES and SD which will likely be single digit. You will also have a load that is easy on brass if properly FL neck sized as it will likely not be fire-formed at the base enough for your dies to size.

If brass life is not a concern and you want more velocity you have another stable node between 43.3 and 43.6 which is about 2 grains below where you started getting pressure signs and where I would have stopped. Load 5 at 43.4 and 43.5 and you should find the sweet spot which could be further tweaked by seating depth. However you will likely want to neck size the brass in which case you will want to start another ladder at 43.5 grain and work up a load for that situation.

Here is a pressure ladder that I shot. Loads 22.0, 22.1 and 22.2 grains clumped into 0.6" followed by pressure spike which took 7,8@9 out of the group. I had no pressure signs but the brass was close to fireformed, the primers were begging to flow and the case was full.
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 10-26-2017, 01:28 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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i would like to be your component supplier please............
Yes you would
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Old 10-26-2017, 06:49 PM
6.5x47 lapua 6.5x47 lapua is offline
 
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Don your target gun is almost done. When it is done I will be putting you on the correct path as you seem to have been steered off it somewhat by other people or you don’t fully understand the information I give you.
Sincerely, Bob
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:32 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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You may be very new at load development but you are certainly on the right track and posting just what this thread needed. The graph clearly illustrates the pressure spikes which are usually followed by a leveling off of pressure for a couple of increments. If you were shooting on a target loads 41.2, 41.5 and 41.8 would group into a small cluster if you are shooting up to your rifles potential. While you are not up to Hornady's Max charge of 44.0 grains you are over their max velocity of 2700 fps for various 150-155 grain bullets. If you load 5 at 41.4, 41.5 and 46.5 respectively you will likely find the most accurate load over a range of conditions and the load with the lowest ES and SD which will likely be single digit. You will also have a load that is easy on brass if properly FL neck sized as it will likely not be fire-formed at the base enough for your dies to size.

If brass life is not a concern and you want more velocity you have another stable node between 43.3 and 43.6 which is about 2 grains below where you started getting pressure signs and where I would have stopped. Load 5 at 43.4 and 43.5 and you should find the sweet spot which could be further tweaked by seating depth. However you will likely want to neck size the brass in which case you will want to start another ladder at 43.5 grain and work up a load for that situation or better yet go to the Hodgdon online Manual and switch to Varget.

Here is a pressure ladder that I shot. Loads 22.0, 22.1 and 22.2 grains clumped into 0.6" followed by pressure spike which took 7,8@9 out of the group. I had no pressure signs but the brass was close to fireformed, the primers were begging to flow and the case was full.
[IMG][/IMG]
Hopefully this is what your 5 shot groups will look like and then it is a matter of proving the load/loads at longer distances.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:59 AM
6.5x47 lapua 6.5x47 lapua is offline
 
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Group shooting is not the way to develop long range loads no matter what discipline you shoot. Period.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:46 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Group shooting is not the way to develop long range loads no matter what discipline you shoot. Period.
The thread is about finding an accurate load. While many different approaches can be used the Audettet ladder test has been adopted by some. While I have used it I find that doing a pressure ladder using a single shot at each increment, as I have shown, works best for me. I have worked up a number of loads that shoot sub 1/2 MOA, mostly in wildcat cartridges that I have designed that have no manuals to follow, and do not run pressures that cause sticky bolt or blown primers.

It does not matter what discipline you shoot it is a fact that a load that will consistently shoot Sub 1/2 Moa groups will do better than one that won't do 1MOA groups. Combine that with a stable load, that consistently shoots a low Extreme Spread, especially if the Standard Deviation is in the single digits will do well at longer distances. Once a good load is established then it has to be tested to the maximum range it is going to be used to ensure that it remains stable. I have never had a good load, developed in this manner, that failed to perform at ranges that they were designed for. As well a good load will shoot well in most any rifle and I have many ladder targets, and follow up groups to illustrate that.

That being said I would be interested in finding out how you find a good load, especially for long range, without being able to shoot good groups at closer ranges.
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Old 10-27-2017, 01:55 PM
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Do you have any original material, Don?

You're worse than an anorexic girl.
Regurgitating everything you take in.

Most shooters aren't in possession of the necessary skill set to adequately decern much from a ladder test let alone exploit its nuances.

Shoot for groups, rinse and repeat. The trigger time will serve them well.
Walking before running is best.
So why try and start a fight all the time? Just move on to a different thread. Some folks could use some anorexia...
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Old 10-27-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua View Post
Group shooting is not the way to develop long range loads no matter what discipline you shoot. Period.
I agree, and further submit that groups are also a poor method to begin load development for shorter range use.

Many here seem to confuse ladder and group testing.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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Old 10-28-2017, 11:10 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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I agree, and further submit that groups are also a poor method to begin load development for shorter range use.

Many here seem to confuse ladder and group testing.

Good Luck, YMMV.
You are right in that groups are a poor method to "begin" load development at any range as you will burn up a lot of components unless you get lucky. I believe that people confuse ladder testing and group testing, as you suggest, and overlook the usefulness of the ladder test as they dismiss it without fully understanding how to use it. I will attempt to better explain what I learned from the ladder test and how it led to the 4 groups that I shot and what I can read from them as far as how they will perform out to 500 yards which is what the load is designed for. I did not use a chronograph in this ladder but the Lab Radar
would have confirmed, as it did in Targets#2 , the moderate pressure increases from shot#1-#4 and the pressure spike (39fps) at shot #5 followed by a very moderate velocity increase with shot#6. This pressure spike indicated that the Rem brass was getting close to being fire-formed to my chamber and measurement of the Base datum showed only about 0.0002" spring-back from the chamber. This and primer flow of about 0.0025" indicated that I had reached my maximum for this load even though I had no sticky bolt lift or flattening of primers.

Looking at shots #1-6 there was only 0.1" vertical which told me that any of these shots would likely keep vertical POI to 1/2" at 500 yards. Shots #7,8 &9 (Full) showed that I had passed the potential with Varget but was still in the safe range with no pressure problems. Shots #4, 5 & 6 showed that these loads had the potential to shoot 0.3" groups at 500 yards. Target #3 confirms the potential 0.3" vertical to 500 yards but the ES may be a bit high to maintain that to 500 yards. This load will be on target with 3MOA to 300 and 8MOA to 500 and will surely take out a gopher or coyote. Hopefully Lee (triple duce) will get a chance to confirm this when he gets back from Kamloops. Good luck this weekend!
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:50 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
You are right in that groups are a poor method to "begin" load development at any range as you will burn up a lot of components unless you get lucky. I believe that people confuse ladder testing and group testing, as you suggest, and overlook the usefulness of the ladder test as they dismiss it without fully understanding how to use it. I will attempt to better explain what I learned from the ladder test and how it led to the 4 groups that I shot and what I can read from them as far as how they will perform out to 500 yards which is what the load is designed for. I did not use a chronograph in this ladder but the Lab Radar
would have confirmed, as it did in Targets#2 , the moderate pressure increases from shot#1-#4 and the pressure spike (39fps) at shot #5 followed by a very moderate velocity increase with shot#6. This pressure spike indicated that the Rem brass was getting close to being fire-formed to my chamber and measurement of the Base datum showed only about 0.0002" spring-back from the chamber. This and primer flow of about 0.0025" indicated that I had reached my maximum for this load even though I had no sticky bolt lift or flattening of primers.

Looking at shots #1-6 there was only 0.1" vertical which told me that any of these shots would likely keep vertical POI to 1/2" at 500 yards. Shots #7,8 &9 (Full) showed that I had passed the potential with Varget but was still in the safe range with no pressure problems. Shots #4, 5 & 6 showed that these loads had the potential to shoot 0.3" groups at 500 yards. Target #3 confirms the potential 0.3" vertical to 500 yards but the ES may be a bit high to maintain that to 500 yards. This load will be on target with 3MOA to 300 and 8MOA to 500 and will surely take out a gopher or coyote. Hopefully Lee (triple duce) will get a chance to confirm this when he gets back from Kamloops. Good luck this weekend!
Thank you for drawing attention to the key word “begin” in my post # 28, and support for my suspicion of common confusion regarding methods, procedures and terminology for load development. IMHO, there is a definite need for group testing during load development, I just do not start there.

I share your preference for initial testing using single shot / increment ladder procedure.
This does require consistent loading & shooting skills, (which are most often developed by shooting lots of groups).
I note that you report using ~.5% powder charge increments, but no reported target distance/range, (I suspect 100yds).
IMHE, I find Audette ladders shot @ >300yds to be easier to interpret, and certainly more illustrative of barrel harmonics.

I try to obtain the maximum usable information from each shot, and submit this provides the most cost&effort / benefit.
IMHE, 15 shot Audette ladder provides much more information than 3x5 or 5x3 groups, and a full 15 group series will require 45-75 shots.

I am curious how you measure your reported .0025” of primer flow?
and also of your use of PRE (pressure ring expansion) and CHE (case head expansion)?
I note that PRE & CHE are somewhat controversial
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp...%2019%2004.pdf
and would appreciate your opinion and measured experience.

and also how you manage and store the large volume of measured data that you collect?

Good Luck, YMMV.
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