Do we have enough moose?

[cody j]

My friend who operates wells in wmu 354 said there is a bunch of treaty hunters from Manitoba hunting there now. Do we really have enough moose for this type of unlimited hunting? I heard people say there isn’t much for moose left in Manitoba, I guess that’s why they are here.

[DiabeticKripple]

there isnt enough moose and elk to allow unregulated hunting, but it will continue to happen and theres nothing we can do about it.

[Brbpuppy]

Should of seen the cow moose slaughter I saw in 346 last December while out grouse hunting. I called it into fishcops, he said it was first nations hunt... Pretty ****ty, my old man can't even get a moose tag to hunt with his bow. And I'm priority 7, haven't drawn yet.

[Sooner]

Not uncommon to see out of province FN hunt camps before the season opens up. Seen it in 516 over the years and the foot hills south west of Whitecourt/Fox Creek. I wish it were not the case but we know they can.

[Smoky buck]

Unless FN start reporting what they harvest it’s hard to say but I don’t see the volunteering for this or the government requesting it

[hunterngather]

If I'm not mistaking, technically they need written permission from an elder or chief from the treaty area they are hunting since it is not there home treaty. I know my buddies that live in treaty 6 never leave it to hunt. They do not like it either, but what can you do?

Pretty sure its called a Shipman letter.
It should lay out from the "host nation" what kind of animal to be harvested and time frame.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by hunterngather

If I'm not mistaking, technically they need written permission from an elder or chief from the treaty area they are hunting since it is not there home treaty. I know my buddies that live in treaty 6 never leave it to hunt. They do not like it either, but what can you do?

Pretty sure its called a Shipman letter.
It should lay out from the "host nation" what kind of animal to be harvested and time frame.

No such permission is needed in Alberta.
Treaty hunters from anywhere in Canada can come here and hunt/kill till there is nothing left for anyone.

Of course this may and probably will change in the future as visiting First Nation hunters are having a very detrimental effect on game populations in some areas.
It will require Alberta First Nations to effect the change.

[Alberta Bigbore]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

No such permission is needed in Alberta.
Treaty hunters from anywhere in Canada can come here and hunt/kill till there is nothing left for anyone.

To correct your comment .. for what it is or was trying to be....




The status hunter treaty zone must touch or overlap into the provincial line.

Im treaty 4. It hits alberta. Not by a landslide. But it does, which in turn allows me to hunt 365 days a year with a centerfire rifle, even in such zones designsted Bow Muzzloader or Shotgun..... in case that question is asked, now its answered as well.



And to add, permission is required on private lands. The harvest of Caribou, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, cougar, and Grizzly, do have to be reported within a specific timeline, in Alberta.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

To correct your comment .. for what it is or was trying to be....




The status hunter treaty zone must touch or overlap into the provincial line.

Im treaty 4. It hits alberta. Not by a landslide. But it does, which in turn allows me to hunt 365 days a year with a centerfire rifle, even in such zones designsted Bow Muzzloader or Shotgun..... in case that question is asked, now its answered as well.

That is new to me.
I'm all for being corrected.
If this is a legal requirement, any chance you can provide a link to information explaining it?
Why would the Provincial line matter?
Treaties are not enforced nor influenced by Provincial jurisdiction.

So, you are saying that it IS illegal for these Manitoba Treaty hunters to use their hunting rights in Alberta without consent from the local treaty nations?

Now, let's know that there are First Nations traditional lands where they do have the right to control hunting by people from other areas wanting to use Treaty rights. Most of B.C. is an example... most of these areas are NOT under a Treaty.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

No such permission is needed in Alberta.
Treaty hunters from anywhere in Canada can come here and hunt/kill till there is nothing left for anyone.

Of course this may and probably will change in the future as visiting First Nation hunters are having a very detrimental effect on game populations in some areas.
It will require Alberta First Nations to effect the change.

Alberta changed that a couple of years ago. They no longer allow out of Treaty hunters to hunt in Alberta. How do I know this. My Cousin has a Status card and was told by F&W he had to be part of one of the Alberta Treaties. That doesnt mean its not still happening.
There are provisions such as already stated as getting permission from the Elders usually with a provision of helping hunt for the locals

[58thecat]

not if this crap keeps up...just all around disgusting...what really gets me is when the selected one take out a cow in jan/feb....slobs...reefer trucks full of meat....would be if you ran into a small group just taking a moose and being done with it but that's not the driving force....sell the meat....stay on the reserves and hunt there....ohhhh but wait stewards of the land have abused that too....f-ing joke.

[bobwayzie]

I wish we had equality in this country. Moose will be long gone before my son can hunt.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by bobwayzie

I wish we had equality in this country. Moose will be long gone before my son can hunt.

imagine that equality....all working...all paying taxes...all being treated equally...not my bloody fault what happened years ago and the last two generations have not been effected by crap but man lay the card down and the guberment bends over....we are all Canadians....period.....equal...treated equal...no race...no skin color...no religion bs...equal....Canadians..I need a beer.....

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ctd

Alberta changed that a couple of years ago. They no longer allow out of Treaty hunters to hunt in Alberta. How do I know this. My Cousin has a Status card and was told by F&W he had to be part of one of the Alberta Treaties. That doesnt mean its not still happening.
There are provisions such as already stated as getting permission from the Elders usually with a provision of helping hunt for the locals

Thanks for your input.

But I'm still confused.

How could Alberta change this?
These Treaties are Federal.


I don't doubt for a second that people are being told so.
This is a change that IMO needs to happen.
I would need to see the law to believe that it has been changed.

With a quick look (coffee break) I can't find anything in Alberta law that mentions any such matter of restricting non-Alberta Treaty Indians hunting rights in Alberta.

[Moosetalker]

An Indigenous group from Grass lake Saskatchewan with a refer truck had about seven vehicles out pounding the roads constant late summer fall of 2011.
I saw them many times as I bow and rifle hunted deer Sept1 onward the same year. was told by Others they were also in 337 & 339 they were there again same group in 2012 F&W officer I know personally said they harvested at least 89 moose as well as some elk by the end of 2011 He was called to attend many kill sites reported by local hunters as some only quarters and nose had been taken They were active out of a big camp by Eta Lake.

In 2012 someone shot a hole in their refer unit causing a waste of meat from 23 moose/elk they never left just fixed unit and kept hunting.

Used to be a General tag for archery moose Now a draw for archery. between 2003 and 2006 I and a few other guides could pretty much guarantee calling in upwards of several bull some days.

2018 an indigenous group from Manitoba was operating on the Pine creek Sub west of Silver summit a friend said their camp was across the only access trail to his trapper friends cabin his buddy had to get F&W and RCMP to intervene to allow him to get past to go to his cabin.

He also raised a stink as the Out Of Province treaty harvesting being shut down was about the only supposedly good thing the NDP/Notly government did. but they refused to do anything.

This needs to be figured out somehow. I am not against our local indigenous peoples exercising their rights.
BUT A line must be drawn somewhere.

I am not holding my breath seems Local bands are against Transparency of any form of reports on their management.

I would like to see quotas and recording implemented with Biologist recommendation to area zone to assign a reasonable per capita harvesting agreement.

As a side note more has to be done to curb the Groups of white guy poachers with indigenous friends party scenario.


Its just not sustainable the way it is

[ctd]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks for your input.

But I'm still confused.

How could Alberta change this?
These Treaties are Federal.


I don't doubt for a second that people are being told so.
This is a change that IMO needs to happen.
I would need to see the law to believe that it has been changed.

With a quick look (coffee break) I can't find anything in Alberta law that mentions any such matter of restricting non-Alberta Treaty Indians hunting rights in Alberta.

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/b2ee...oct25-2016.pdf

Thats just info sheet. Key words are being used in there such as Eligible Indians. That refers to being part of the Treaty signed inthe particular areas.

I will try and find the lick to the old rules from a couple years ago. It was pretty open for all Natives to hunt, fish and trap. Then many Natives from Out east were taking advantage of that open allowance here in Alberta for a open border hunting rights. Some complaints were made in respect to the actual treatys and who they were designed for. So the gov had to limit who could hunt under the Treaty rights in Alberta.
For example It wasn't fair that a Native from Newfoundland could fly into Northern Alberta for work, shoot a moose and fly home all under the guise of providing for their family. Not contribute anything to people of the land, and brag about their huge moose they shot.
Respect the land that provides for you and others. Its really a shame that people took advantage of Alberta's previous givings to the Native community as a whole.

[Kurt505]

And some guys are worried about outfitter tags......

Moose, sheep, grizzly, cougar without a limit, day or night, spot lights, bow zone, park, it don’t matter.

A small allotment of regulated tags don’t sound so bad now.

[Positrac]

I'm not going to pretend to know all the rules around Native hunting, because I have no poker in the fire and I've never looked into them.

What I do know is an old co-worker's wife is a Status Native originally from Whitehorse and she went to the local CO office in Fort McMurray last year to make sure that it was legal for her to harvest a moose, whether it be cow or bull.

The CO she talked to looked at her credentials and told her she was good to go and she shot one last year and just got another one last week from what I'm told.

This is a fact. So if there are rules against it, even the local CO's are either not aware or are not enforcing it.

[James M]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

To correct your comment .. for what it is or was trying to be....




The status hunter treaty zone must touch or overlap into the provincial line.

Im treaty 4. It hits alberta. Not by a landslide. But it does, which in turn allows me to hunt 365 days a year with a centerfire rifle, even in such zones designsted Bow Muzzloader or Shotgun..... in case that question is asked, now its answered as well.



And to add, permission is required on private lands. The harvest of Caribou, bighorn sheep, mountain goat, cougar, and Grizzly, do have to be reported within a specific timeline, in Alberta.

They back peddled out of that less than a week into it. All status can use it here.

[James M]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks for your input.

But I'm still confused.

How could Alberta change this?
These Treaties are Federal.


I don't doubt for a second that people are being told so.
This is a change that IMO needs to happen.
I would need to see the law to believe that it has been changed.

With a quick look (coffee break) I can't find anything in Alberta law that mentions any such matter of restricting non-Alberta Treaty Indians hunting rights in Alberta.

This is what he’s referring to. This screen shot is from like 5 or so years ago. They back peddled out of this like 6 days into it.

[hunterngather]

About getting an idea of harvesting numbers.
When treaty hunters bring thier meat to butchers they need to provide thier treaty numbers.

Do they track those numbers when gathering harvest reports?

[Dark Wing]

My brother brought his FN buddy up for a deer hunt last fall from BC . He talked to F&W just to make sure he was okay to hunt under his treaty card and was given the thumbs up to hunt what ever he wanted . He was surprised that he was good to go as he still had to put in for the draws and follow all the regulations in B.C. as he was originally from Ontario. Tom was telling me that we need to follow suit with B.C. and I just shook my head and said the Alberta FN need to shut the boarders down.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ctd

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/b2ee...oct25-2016.pdf

Thats just info sheet. Key words are being used in there such as Eligible Indians. That refers to being part of the Treaty signed inthe particular areas.

I will try and find the lick to the old rules from a couple years ago. It was pretty open for all Natives to hunt, fish and trap. Then many Natives from Out east were taking advantage of that open allowance here in Alberta for a open border hunting rights. Some complaints were made in respect to the actual treatys and who they were designed for. So the gov had to limit who could hunt under the Treaty rights in Alberta.
For example It wasn't fair that a Native from Newfoundland could fly into Northern Alberta for work, shoot a moose and fly home all under the guise of providing for their family. Not contribute anything to people of the land, and brag about their huge moose they shot.
Respect the land that provides for you and others. Its really a shame that people took advantage of Alberta's previous givings to the Native community as a whole.

No it doesn't.

This just refers to Indians that have Status hunting rights under Federal law.


I am well aware that many Alberta First Nations are taking issue with visitors coming here to hunt under Treaty status.

The push to limit non-resident Status hunting comes along with another objective.
Alberta First Nations have organized internally to develop a strategy to gain FULL control of ALL hunting.
ALL Non-status hunters including non Treaty Alberta Residents would have to gain permission from the Local Nation to hunt on their "Traditional" territory, and obtain a Licence from that First Nation to harvest any animals or birds.


The first push for this change came at the same time as the push to limit non-resident Treaty Hunters.... The second attempt will happen.

[cody j]

My friend told me the local band wasn’t thrilled about them being there hunting, but fish and wildlife knows they are there and they were also given the combo to a locked gate to access a private road to hunt so it would seem that whatever they are doing is legal.

[ESOXangler]

Alberta is a free for all. Even in Ontario there are certain areas you can hunt and others you can't depending on affiliation.

My best friend is status, in Ontario when we are fishing together he has to abide by the limits i have to follow. Whereas there are no limits when alone or with other status members. In alberta we can sit in the same boat and he can fill his cooler while I C&R.

I fully do not understand the treaty laws enough to argue but if I was a local status individual I'd be some mad some guys from Manitoba where out here stocking up on moose.

Also maybe I feel this way out of ignorance but why should a status member be allowed to hunt year round with non traditional tools? Chasing a moose with a 300 WSM and a trike are hardly handed down traditions from yesteryear...

Change my view!

[hunterngather]

Im treaty.
Pay taxes.
Work full time.
Own my home.
Hunt.
Shoot.
Fish.

Some say they want equality across the board. I agree.

Easy to say.

Tough to say its happening when 80 percent of the job interviews you can see and feel the person react to your skin color and how you talk. Also have had employers ask why I am applying for a job of reserve.

Had a gun shop ask me why am I buying ammo when the reserve gives me ammo.

Im 43. Never had a traffic infraction yet have been pulled over by police, peace officers over 30 times. No joke haha.

My entire career I have been paid less than co workers with less experience and tenure.

My kids (grade 10) have forever endured ridicule and comments on them being "indian"

My parents still cant say they love me. Yes they attended Residential schools.

Its pretty hard shopping in big box stores without LPO's following me. (At this point they are laughable how easy they are to spot)

I cant remeber the last time a person at the grocery store till has asked me how I am doing.

3 times in the last year gassing up people have commented "must not have car washes on the rez"

I have never been granted time off from any employer Ive had to attend ceremonial activities that lay outside of Christian holidays.

I gather medicine along many lease roads. Ive been accosted by many people over the years asking what im doing and straight out calling me a poacher.

I dont have the luxury of "the benifit of doubt" that is a term and benifit for non-indigenous people in my experience.

So when people cry for equality, I dont believe they really have any idea of what they are asking for.

To me they are asking for things to be equal for THEM in THIER eyes. People that cry "equality for all" have zero bloody clue what life is for someone with a skin color that aint white.

I dont want any part of an argument, lust sharing my experience.

[hunterngather]

And also, I am an advid person of the land and love being outdoors.

I joined to learn and share anything I can to help other people.

Being treaty its hard to comment on hunting or share pics whithout feeling like Im gonna get accosted...

If this is not the forum for me it would be nice to know?

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by hunterngather

Im treaty.
Pay taxes.
Work full time.
Own my home.
Hunt.
Shoot.
Fish.

Some say they want equality across the board. I agree.

Easy to say.

Tough to say its happening when 80 percent of the job interviews you can see and feel the person react to your skin color and how you talk. Also have had employers ask why I am applying for a job of reserve.

Had a gun shop ask me why am I buying ammo when the reserve gives me ammo.

Im 43. Never had a traffic infraction yet have been pulled over by police, peace officers over 30 times. No joke haha.

My entire career I have been paid less than co workers with less experience and tenure.

My kids (grade 10) have forever endured ridicule and comments on them being "indian"

My parents still cant say they love me. Yes they attended Residential schools.

Its pretty hard shopping in big box stores without LPO's following me. (At this point they are laughable how easy they are to spot)

I cant remeber the last time a person at the grocery store till has asked me how I am doing.

3 times in the last year gassing up people have commented "must not have car washes on the rez"

I have never been granted time off from any employer Ive had to attend ceremonial activities that lay outside of Christian holidays.

I gather medicine along many lease roads. Ive been accosted by many people over the years asking what im doing and straight out calling me a poacher.

I dont have the luxury of "the benifit of doubt" that is a term and benifit for non-indigenous people in my experience.

So when people cry for equality, I dont believe they really have any idea of what they are asking for.

To me they are asking for things to be equal for THEM in THIER eyes. People that cry "equality for all" have zero bloody clue what life is for someone with a skin color that aint white.

I dont want any part of an argument, lust sharing my experience.

Im white
Pay taxes.
Work full time.
Own my home.
Hunt.
Shoot.
Fish.


And because Im white, Ive been blamed for everyones hardships who isnt white

Apparently Im racist only because im white

I get blamed today for the stuff white people did 200 years ago

Sounds like you and I should have a beer someday. We have experienced a lot of the same type of racism

[hunterngather]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Im white
Pay taxes.
Work full time.
Own my home.
Hunt.
Shoot.
Fish.


And because Im white, Ive been blamed for everyones hardships who isnt white

Apparently Im racist only because im white

I get blamed today for the stuff white people did 200 years ago

Sounds like you and I should have a beer someday. We have experienced a lot of the same type of racism

Bet we would probably have fun tbh haha.

Have you had similar personal expirences on the same scale? Cause that aint cool. I feel you.

My wife have experienced the same, a few times on reserve over the years.

[James M]

Originally Posted by ESOXangler

Alberta is a free for all. Even in Ontario there are certain areas you can hunt and others you can't depending on affiliation.

My best friend is status, in Ontario when we are fishing together he has to abide by the limits i have to follow. Whereas there are no limits when alone or with other status members. In alberta we can sit in the same boat and he can fill his cooler while I C&R.

I fully do not understand the treaty laws enough to argue but if I was a local status individual I'd be some mad some guys from Manitoba where out here stocking up on moose.

Also maybe I feel this way out of ignorance but why should a status member be allowed to hunt year round with non traditional tools? Chasing a moose with a 300 WSM and a trike are hardly handed down traditions from yesteryear...

Change my view!

Wrong.