Cecil killed for Trophy.

[raab]

Is no one else ****ed that the Zimbabwe government sold off baby elephants to China and the United Emirates? I think I'm more ****ed about that then the hunter poaching and I hate poachers!!

[gramps73]

Question??
how would he (the hunter) know if the PH never had a tag or not?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by gramps73

Question??
how would he (the hunter) know if the PH never had a tag or not?

He likely wouldn't. See my post a couple pages back.

[gramps73]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

He likely wouldn't. See my post a couple pages back.

So then why is he (the hunter) being painted as the bad guy?

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

He likely wouldn't. See my post a couple pages back.

A Cites permit is required for exporting and it would have the legalities / permits and applications clearly identified.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by raab

Is no one else ****ed that the Zimbabwe government sold off baby elephants to China and the United Emirates? I think I'm more ****ed about that then the hunter poaching and I hate poachers!!

Hwange has far too many elephants as it stands. Years ago they culled 5,000 to bring the numbers down to between 10-15,000 animals. The population there now sits at 35-40,000 animals and will likely see another 10,000 animal cull like they had 10 years or so ago.
A PH I know there worked for the parks department before becoming a PH. He's killed hundreds and hundreds of elephants himself. He said in a good day they could kill 30-40 animals. Hack out the ivory so the poachers didn't get it and leave the rest to rot.
Sustained hunting doesn't seem so bad compared to this.

The baby elephants where likely destined for death, not sure life in a zoo would be much better

[michaelmicallef]

Africa might be the only place that any of us will be able to hunt if the antis get thier way in this country. What the antis fail to realize is that if it wasn't for hunting in Africa more animals would be on the endangered list as the big money those animals generate is what makes the African government hire wardens to catch poachers. If nobody hunts or goes on high priced safaris the government would have less ensentive to protect them from poaching. Money talks.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Leafy

A Cites permit is required for exporting and it would have the legalities / permits and applications clearly identified.

A cites permit for Lion is not issued until the animal is harvested, rhino is the only one done in advance now.

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

A cites permit for Lion is not issued until the animal is harvested, rhino is the only one done in advance now.

Good to know, few years back we were required to apply and have acceptance for the lioness prior to leaving.

Thanks

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by gramps73

So then why is he (the hunter) being painted as the bad guy?

I think the ethics of killing a well known park lion is what has most people bothered. 99.9% of the population has no clue how things work over there and in the original story they had the fee he paid the outfitter for the hunt (day rate + trophy fee) chalked up to a under the table bribe paid to government officials.
Likely because this version sells the story better then the hunt was completely legal other then lion wasn't on quota this year likely because the property owner didn't pay a big enough bribe to the government.
I can't say for sure if he knew or not. Having been through the exact same scenario I can definitely see how he could have been lied to very easily. That being said with high dollar hunts and low success rates these days on big cats, I'm sure lots happens in the bushveld we never hear about.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Leafy

Good to know, few years back we were required to apply and have acceptance for the lioness prior to leaving.

Thanks

Prior to leaving once the animal was shot ? Are you talking about Zim or S.A. ?

That's how it worked when I did it. Shot the lioness, signed the permit application and they sent it in. This was in S.A.

Now you do have to have a hunting permit in place before you hunt, but the one I had was for multiple properties. Once the hunt was completed another game department form was filled out and signed. But that had nothing to do with a Cites permit.

[winger7mm]

The actual facts state he poached the lion, whether he knew or not (likely not due to the PH but what ever) Lets put the poaching aspect aside, General public people are sooooo naive its driving me up the wall. Poor endangered lions being mercilessly killed for the sake of killing something blahblahblah. I am beginning to not be able to handle the stupidness of people on my fb and other places. This is why ALL my friends are hunters because they can grasp the real world. Media plays a huge part in all of this crap and and playing off of peoples feelings without divulging into actual facts and such about how safari hunts are actually operated. A few days ago there was an elephant kill posted with a small group of smiling people...... I swear that one was enough to take a beer drinker and force him to drink hard alcohol geez. As HUNTERS we need to stand tight and inform those who we can. I dont think this lion hunter knew he was poaching its not his responsibility, thats why you pay a GUIDE!

Hunters will always be satanic killers of mother natures cute cuddly creatures looking for nothing but blood, but we need to stand tall and proud!

Ill admit that the last few hunter smears iv done quite well at not being a tool (even though iv been drinking cause iv been off work lol) But the stupidity flows strong and fast. Dont set out to change peoples minds, set out to make them more informed about how it actually is!!!

[camping4life]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It would have been fair game if there was a permit available for that location. Without a permit, it's poaching.

Poaching 101.....yup

[gbart]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

The actual facts state he poached the lion, whether he knew or not (likely not due to the PH but what ever) Lets put the poaching aspect aside, General public people are sooooo naive its driving me up the wall. Poor endangered lions being mercilessly killed for the sake of killing something blahblahblah. I am beginning to not be able to handle the stupidness of people on my fb and other places. This is why ALL my friends are hunters because they can grasp the real world. Media plays a huge part in all of this crap and and playing off of peoples feelings without divulging into actual facts and such about how safari hunts are actually operated. A few days ago there was an elephant kill posted with a small group of smiling people...... I swear that one was enough to take a beer drinker and force him to drink hard alcohol geez. As HUNTERS we need to stand tight and inform those who we can. I dont think this lion hunter knew he was poaching its not his responsibility, thats why you pay a GUIDE!

Hunters will always be satanic killers of mother natures cute cuddly creatures looking for nothing but blood, but we need to stand tall and proud!

Ill admit that the last few hunter smears iv done quite well at not being a tool (even though iv been drinking cause iv been off work lol) But the stupidity flows strong and fast. Dont set out to change peoples minds, set out to make them more informed about how it actually is!!!

Your right winger,

But you got to remember the post is about harvesting this specific lion.

Cecil was cashed in by a greedy *****. The stars aligned were there was someone willing to pay and someone willing to go and get him for him. This one should have been left for the tree hungers and photographers, Zimbabwe has lots of nice lions to harvest.

Its all about balance. Its not about shooting lions. I appreciate Torkdesiel's post were he states most people don't understand how it works there...and they don't.

I lived in Zimbabwe for close to three years and it is a hunters paradise. The people I knew in this business were by far the best protectors of the natural resources this country has. I cant speak for them, but I am very sure they are not happy with this story.

IMO Cecil should have been left for the tourists.....

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by gbart

Your right winger,

But you got to remember the post is about harvesting this specific lion.

Cecil was cashed in by a greedy *****. The stars aligned were there was someone willing to pay and someone willing to go and get him for him. This one should have been left for the tree hungers and photographers, Zimbabwe has lots of nice lions to harvest.

Its all about balance. Its not about shooting lions. I appreciate Torkdesiel's post were he states most people don't understand how it works there...and they don't.

I lived in Zimbabwe for close to three years and it is a hunters paradise. The people I knew in this business were by far the best protectors of the natural resources this country has. I cant speak for them, but I am very sure they are not happy with this story.

IMO Cecil should have been left for the tourists.....

What makes him so special?? Was he some supersized cat?? To me its just some cat that was regularly seen in a park. No different then specdaves shots of the 7 point bull elk in jasper park..... Well maybe he doesnt have a name, maybe he does I dont know nor care. If I seen him outta the park during a season his heart would explode with a 175gr bullet

[gbart]

Sure, if you could actually hit him in the heart in a real life scenario

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by gbart

Sure, if you could actually hit him in the heart in a real life scenario

Ok yeah your right...... It would probably be a mid lung shot lol, or possibly a shoulder shot im not gonna lie lol

[gbart]

That would get it done...

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by gbart

Cecil was cashed in by a greedy *****. The stars aligned were there was someone willing to pay and someone willing to go and get him for him. This one should have been left for the tree hungers and photographers, Zimbabwe has lots of nice lions to harvest.

IMO Cecil should have been left for the tourists.....

So my question still goes unanswered. What makes "him" so special??

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

So my question still goes unanswered. What makes "him" so special??

I think that fact that he'd been photographed a million times makes him pretty unique.

That and the fact that his mane is almost unbelievable for a free range lion.

[winger7mm]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

I think that fact that he'd been photographed a million times makes him pretty unique.

That and the fact that his mane is almost unbelievable for a free range lion.

So then yes, one who was commonly seen in a park then. Soooo?? That goes back to an impressive bull elk who is commonly seen along the highway in jasper nat park. Different animal, but yet if that bull elk met the same demise. Being bugled outta the park and shot, Not more then the hunting community would know about it. The only reason this lion is getting press is well the fact its a lion. I havnt seen much about it being poached or anything, only that a lion was shot.

[huntwat]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

What makes him so special?? Was he some supersized cat?? To me its just some cat that was regularly seen in a park. No different then specdaves shots of the 7 point bull elk in jasper park..... Well maybe he doesnt have a name, maybe he does I dont know nor care. If I seen him outta the park during a season his heart would explode with a 175gr bullet

This. ^^^
If this lion scenario is scene any other way, it must be from an anti.
Assuming everything was legal.
If illegal it is poaching.
I don't know the FACTS, so who am I to judge.
This happened on the other side of the world, they have different ways of hunting. I may or may not agree with them, but legal there, so NONE of my business.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

So then yes, one who was commonly seen in a park then. Soooo?? That goes back to an impressive bull elk who is commonly seen along the highway in jasper nat park. Different animal, but yet if that bull elk met the same demise. Being bugled outta the park and shot, Not more then the hunting community would know about it. The only reason this lion is getting press is well the fact its a lion. I havnt seen much about it being poached or anything, only that a lion was shot.

Touche

[huntwat]

I wonder what the uproar will be when the first huge bull elk in suffield gets tagged... It will probably have some sort of name, as it probably has been seen everyday for the last 10 years. Plus it has no fear of humans or vehicles, or even gunshots. And, omg their not even gonna bait them, just drive into their home and shoot. Will it never end.......

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Aren't all African hunts just trophy hunts? I don't see Cecil being any different than an elephant or giraffe. Why do people kill giraffes for crying out loud??

I hunt, so I'm not going to judge, but there are some things I just don't understand.

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

They kill giraffe for food. Tons of it in fact !

lol, Get real man! Hunting in Africa is Trophy Hunting, period. To pretend that it is anything else other then that is dumb.

I have absolutely no problem with trophy hunting, providing that it is done with game management in mind and not poaching like the dentist participated in.

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Prior to leaving once the animal was shot ? Are you talking about Zim or S.A. ?

That's how it worked when I did it. Shot the lioness, signed the permit application and they sent it in. This was in S.A.

Now you do have to have a hunting permit in place before you hunt, but the one I had was for multiple properties. Once the hunt was completed another game department form was filled out and signed. But that had nothing to do with a Cites permit.

Was prior to leave Canada, hunted S.A. and this was 8 years ago now.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkivory

lol, Get real man! Hunting in Africa is Trophy Hunting, period. To pretend that it is anything else other then that is dumb.

I have absolutely no problem with trophy hunting, providing that it is done with game management in mind and not poaching like the dentist participated in.

I have a couple of friends that go over every year to cull hunt. That is to kill game for population control and meat.

[Gilly]

He came out of the park. Tuff sheet. It's not like there won't be another 10 Cecil's waiting to take over anyways. I don't know what makes Cecil so dam great besides having a moniker hung on em and wearing some jewellery. He's nothin but a stat now. Lions need to be managed no differnt than any other apex predator. Congrats to the lucky hunter.

Gilly

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by winger7mm

So then yes, one who was commonly seen in a park then. Soooo?? That goes back to an impressive bull elk who is commonly seen along the highway in jasper nat park. Different animal, but yet if that bull elk met the same demise. Being bugled outta the park and shot, Not more then the hunting community would know about it. The only reason this lion is getting press is well the fact its a lion. I havnt seen much about it being poached or anything, only that a lion was shot.

The articles that I have seen all mention the lion being poached. The fact that is was poached makes even hunters that would normally not have an issue with the hunting methods , get upset with this situation.

[elkivory]

Originally Posted by chuck

I have a couple of friends that go over every year to cull hunt. That is to kill game for population control and meat.

I know many people that have been to Africa to hunt, one right now hunting Elephants. Without exception the only thing that they brought home was the cape, skull and tusks.

All African hunts that foreigners do are trophy hunts. Like I said, I do not have an issue with anyone going to Africa to Trophy Hunt, only those who try to disguise it or pretend that it is something that it is not.

I have heard all of the arguments for and against trophy hunting in Africa, so please do not try to educate me on the subject, I am well versed.