Cecil killed for Trophy.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You mean like baiting bears or wolves ???

How do you propose one should go about hunting a lion ?

Start out by hunting them in an area where there is a permit available.

The hunter appears to already have a conviction on his record for past hunting activities, so I am not all that inclined to believe that he was totally unaware that no permit was available.

[SBE2]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

$500,000 per year or in its lifetime ?

Hwange park has over 500 lions alone. So with approx. 50 male lions minimum your looking at $25,000,000 ??? And that was in 1986. Today it would be hundreds of millions ???
You better let Zim parks know because they're missing out on a ton of money.

Lion hunts sell for $35-70,000 just so your up to date on your numbers young man.

Don't take my word for it though. Have a look at how well Kenya's wildlife has done after they banned sport hunting. Tell me how their Eco tourism dollars are helping out those animals. In 8-10 years I'll also be able to use Botswana as an example for this, poaching elephant has increased 600% in two years without the outfitters operating. Ooops

Mullen1989 you need to respond to this or admit that you are uninformed on the subject matter. I have yet to hunt Africa, but get into endless debates with the uninformed I know and all they do is spew out BS info from some out of date one sided article or some useless celebrity trying to keep their name in the news. Pretty tired of it. The social media beating that the hunter gets, not to mention the death threats, in all of these cases is a joke and it's perpetuated by the uninformed who run with the first thing they hear and take everything as fact. Do better, and get fully informed on the subject matter for yourself, listen to people who have been there and have ties to it. They know more than these celebrity clowns ever will on the matter, but everyone flocks to the sensationalism of a witch hunt style story. You aren't doing hunters or hunting any favors, and if you read closely the permit and quota stuff fall on the PH and the outfitter, and that is likely who will get the charge if in fact there are any. My two cents...

[north american hunter]

Originally Posted by camping4life

He's a piece of **** in my opinion. That's a pretty cowardly way to kill something. I'd love to see him with his bow and arrow come up against a hungry pack of lionesses.

Really?

He wansnt in the park, fair game

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by north american hunter

Really?

He wansnt in the park, fair game

It would have been fair game if there was a permit available for that location. Without a permit, it's poaching.

[north american hunter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It would have been fair game if there was a permit available for that location.

Oh, I must have missed that information

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by camping4life

He's a piece of **** in my opinion. That's a pretty cowardly way to kill something. I'd love to see him with his bow and arrow come up against a hungry pack of lionesses.

did you stumble into the hunting area by accident?

[SBE2]

PH and outfitter/ranch/whatever, control or have the permits or quota. Assuming the hunter knew one was in place or not prior to is reaching.

[doetracks]

Originally Posted by SBE2

PH and outfitter/ranch/whatever, control or have the permits or quota. Assuming the hunter knew one was in place or not prior to is reaching.

That's my understanding

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by SBE2

PH and outfitter/ranch/whatever, control or have the permits or quota. Assuming the hunter knew one was in place or not prior to is reaching.

I am not assuming that he knew that there was no permit in place, but the hunter's previous poaching conviction does make me wonder if he was totally innocent, or if the PH informed him that there was no permit, and he decided to kill the lion anyways. I am just not overly inclined to trust a convicted poacher.

[bat119]

Really sounds like this guy is being hung out to dry he paid for his hunt the guides and outfitter told him everything was hunky dory

Statement of Dr. Walter Palmer
July 28, 2015

"In early July, I was in Zimbabwe on a bow hunting trip for big game. I hired several professional guides and they secured all proper permits. To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted.
"I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt.
"I have not been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or in the U.S. about this situation, but will assist them in any inquiries they may have.
"Again, I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion."

[mullen1989]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

$500,000 per year or in its lifetime ?

Hwange park has over 500 lions alone. So with approx. 50 male lions minimum your looking at $25,000,000 ??? And that was in 1986. Today it would be hundreds of millions ???
You better let Zim parks know because they're missing out on a ton of money.

Lion hunts sell for $35-70,000 just so your up to date on your numbers young man.

Don't take my word for it though. Have a look at how well Kenya's wildlife has done after they banned sport hunting. Tell me how their Eco tourism dollars are helping out those animals. In 8-10 years I'll also be able to use Botswana as an example for this, poaching elephant has increased 600% in two years without the outfitters operating. Ooops

Honest question, but did you read the article? Those are over the life time of the animal, in 1986. The economics of a live animals far outweigh the single cash infusion for a trophy hunt according to the everything I've read on it. Of course they'll be higher once adjusted. And I know how much it costs...but thanks for the tip. Eg. sub-Sahara Africa generated $200MM from trophy hunting, yet South Africa alone generated over $7BB from tourism (of course not all related to game animals).

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/...ectors#tourism

http://www.africanwildlifeconservati...gnificance.pdf

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by camping4life

He's a piece of **** in my opinion. That's a pretty cowardly way to kill something. I'd love to see him with his bow and arrow come up against a hungry pack of lionesses.

Or a knife! Ya that's a good one that the other anti's always use. Go after a critter with no clothes and just a knife.

Get serious. This is a hunting forum. This is how cats are hunted. They are nocturnal critters that run on what their bellies tell them to do. Hang a free meal that they don't have to risk breaking a leg for or getting the crap kicked out of them while trying to kill supper and they come to it.

Don't like it then go to fishing.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by doetracks

Just out of curiosity -

For those of you that have hunted in Africa, did you physically see any permits, or were you sold a hunt based on availability, thereby assuming that there were sufficient permits in place?

I have only been to SA once. Our Outfitter was stellar (Steyn Safaris - shameless plug).

When I hunted Zim I accompanied the PH and assistants to the game department office. They talked to the game scout then I went in and paid a small fee, $50 dollars U.S. if I remember correctly. It was a carbon copy deal with check marks on the game I was permitted to hunt. We checked off everything and listed the three properties I was going to hunt. Only 2 of the 3 had leopard on quota and only 1 had lion. My PH was honest (I think) and told me where the quota was available. That being said there are no fences, gates or lines in the sand so at times I had no clue what property we were on.
Now one property had Hippo and the other didn't and I was offered a hippo tag as long as the two property owners were ok with the swap. Not sure if this was legal or not but does appear to happen quite regularly.

Now I have no idea if this hunter knew the property didn't have a lion on quota or not, or if he was hunting multiple properties. I can certainly see how a PH with low morals could lie to a client as Zim is full of corruption. After all there really isn't a regs book or a way to check to make sure you're hunting legally, you just have to book with a reputable PH and trust them.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bat119

Really sounds like this guy is being hung out to dry he paid for his hunt the guides and outfitter told him everything was hunky dory

Statement of Dr. Walter Palmer
July 28, 2015

"In early July, I was in Zimbabwe on a bow hunting trip for big game. I hired several professional guides and they secured all proper permits. To my knowledge, everything about this trip was legal and properly handled and conducted.
"I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt. I relied on the expertise of my local professional guides to ensure a legal hunt.
"I have not been contacted by authorities in Zimbabwe or in the U.S. about this situation, but will assist them in any inquiries they may have.
"Again, I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion."

What would you say if you were in his position? If you were facing prosecution and death threats would you admit any illegal activity? As well, one of the links posted mentions him providing false information to authorities, when he was convicted of poaching in 2008. At this point, I don't know if he is telling the truth, or if he is lying through his teeth, but his past conviction indicates that he is not above poaching, or lying about it afterward.

Mr Palmer has also run into legal woes. In 2008, court records show, he pleaded guilty to making a false statement to federal wildlife officials concerning the exact location of the slaying of a black bear during a guided hunt in Wisconsin. He was sentenced to a year probation.

[mullen1989]

Originally Posted by SBE2

The social media beating that the hunter gets, not to mention the death threats, in all of these cases is a joke and it's perpetuated by the uninformed who run with the first thing they hear and take everything as fact.

Dude is a convicted poacher already, and has likely just poached again. This makes us all look like idiots if we don't speak up as hunters. Its his responsibility to make sure everything was lawful. Same as us here. Of course death threats aren't cool, and I never said they were.

The discussion on economics is a totally different one.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by mullen1989

Honest question, but did you read the article? Those are over the life time of the animal, in 1986. The economics of a live animals far outweigh the single cash infusion for a trophy hunt according to the everything I've read on it. Of course they'll be higher once adjusted. And I know how much it costs...but thanks for the tip. Eg. sub-Sahara Africa generated $200MM from trophy hunting, yet South Africa alone generated over $7BB from tourism (of course not all related to game animals).

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/...ectors#tourism

http://www.africanwildlifeconservati...gnificance.pdf

If you know how much it costs why didn't you use the real numbers ?

The article was written by a anti hunting supporter with 30 year old information.
Not overly relavent in my opinion.
Once you do some of your own research on Kenya feel free to come back and weigh in on the discussion

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by mullen1989

Dude is a convicted poacher already, and has likely just poached again. This makes us all look like idiots if we don't speak up as hunters. Its his responsibility to make sure everything was lawful. Same as us here.

The discussion on economics is a totally different one.

Read my post regarding regulations in Zimbabwe. Again if you have no clue perhaps listening is a better option then speaking before you have he facts

[mullen1989]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

If you know how much it costs why didn't you use the real numbers ?

The article was written by a anti hunting supporter with 30 year old information.
Not overly relavent in my opinion.
Once you do some of your own research on Kenya feel free to come back and weigh in on the discussion

Because I quoted the article...not the cost of his hunt.

[doetracks]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

When I hunted Zim I accompanied the PH and assistants to the game department office. They talked to the game scout then I went in and paid a small fee, $50 dollars U.S. if I remember correctly. It was a carbon copy deal with check marks on the game I was permitted to hunt. We checked off everything and listed the three properties I was going to hunt. Only 2 of the 3 had leopard on quota and only 1 had lion. My PH was honest (I think) and told me where the quota was available. That being said there are no fences, gates or lines in the sand so at times I had no clue what property we were on.
Now one property had Hippo and the other didn't and I was offered a hippo tag as long as the two property owners were ok with the swap. Not sure if this was legal or not but does appear to happen quite regularly.

Now I have no idea if this hunter knew the property didn't have a lion on quota or not, or if he was hunting multiple properties. I can certainly see how a PH with low morals could lie to a client as Zim is full of corruption. After all there really isn't a regs book or a way to check to make sure you're hunting legally, you just have to book with a reputable PH and trust them.

Thanks

Your outfitter/guides were top notch.

[walking buffalo]

Who knew Zimbabwe was such a progressive nation?

Crossbows are considered to be the same as a bow and arrow.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

What would you say if you were in his position? If you were facing prosecution and death threats would you admit any illegal activity? As well, one of the links posted mentions him providing false information to authorities, when he was convicted of poaching in 2008. At this point, I don't know if he is telling the truth, or if he is lying through his teeth, but his past conviction indicates that he is not above poaching.

No doubt, there is good reason to be suspicious of this doctor's notes.

Another speculation is that the PH intended to use a lion quota (allocation) from another area to give this kill legitimacy (with or without the doctor's knowledge). The presence of the collar disrupted that plan. There are reports that they tried to destroy the collar.... and in the end, the doctor chose to quietly get out of dodge, an action which is hard to blame.... I sure wouldn't want to be spending time in a Zim jail....


This is appearing to be a poaching event attempted to be clocked under the guise of a legitimate operation. Despite it's illegal nature, legal hunting is taking a severe bashing in the public eye.... mostly due to anti-hunting advocates feasting on the opportunity to spoon feed mainstream media an emotional stew of catch phrases, "Sad", "Beheaded", "Infamous", "Infanticide" connected to the slaughtering of "Cecil" "The King of Lions".....

[Cowtown guy]

Originally Posted by mullen1989

Honest question, but did you read the article? Those are over the life time of the animal, in 1986. The economics of a live animals far outweigh the single cash infusion for a trophy hunt according to the everything I've read on it. Of course they'll be higher once adjusted. And I know how much it costs...but thanks for the tip. Eg. sub-Sahara Africa generated $200MM from trophy hunting, yet South Africa alone generated over $7BB from tourism (of course not all related to game animals).

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com/...ectors#tourism

http://www.africanwildlifeconservati...gnificance.pdf

Here's an honest question for you. Have you any idea where the money from eco tourism goes? It will go to the government and will be used to line the pockets of the dirty politicians in power at the time. And if you do any research at all, you will know that they are ridiculously dirty over there. Some, not much, but some, will go back into the park where the folks pay their money to take some pictures.

Trophy hunting on the other hand is spread to the actual people. The PH's buy their groceries, gas and camp supplies with that money. Trackers and skinners and camp staff have jobs. Vehicles are bought and mechanics are employed quite regularly. In a lot of countries it is the PH's and Outfitters that are the primary anti-poaching officers in those areas. The animals have a monetary value put to them which makes them worthwhile to the communities in those hunting areas. Not just the parks.

Animals in countries like Botswana and Kenya that have the photo safaris, are almost non-existent in the areas outside those parks. They are poached relentlessly. The animals are snared in barbed wire snares and they are killed indiscriminately. An animal may be stuck in one of those snares for days or weeks suffering from gangrene and die a horrible death in many instances. Even Elephants get caught in these snares from time to time and then cause damages to villages and can be a problem to people due to the infections and pain that are caused.

[HowSwedeItIs]

The most recent news article says that he didn't know it was a protected lion. I feel really bad for this guy (even with the previous conviction). The threats against him, people camping outside his business, the social media lynch mob, its all just disgusting.

[Pathfinder76]

I just can't quit thinking about poor Cecil.

[hayseed]

I just can't stop thinking about the lion on Madagascar....

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by hayseed

I just can't stop thinking about the lion on Madagascar....

[bat119]

I'll bet he's the guy that shot Bambi's Dad

[gbart]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Who knew Zimbabwe was such a progressive nation?

Crossbows are considered to be the same as a bow and arrow.






No doubt, there is good reason to be suspicious of this doctor's notes.

Another speculation is that the PH intended to use a lion quota (allocation) from another area to give this kill legitimacy (with or without the doctor's knowledge). The presence of the collar disrupted that plan. There are reports that they tried to destroy the collar.... and in the end, the doctor chose to quietly get out of dodge, an action which is hard to blame.... I sure wouldn't want to be spending time in a Zim jail....


This is appearing to be a poaching event attempted to be clocked under the guise of a legitimate operation. Despite it's illegal nature, legal hunting is taking a severe bashing in the public eye.... mostly due to anti-hunting advocates feasting on the opportunity to spoon feed mainstream media an emotional stew of catch phrases, "Sad", "Beheaded", "Infamous", "Infanticide" connected to the slaughtering of "Cecil" "The King of Lions".....

I agree with your post.

I have no problems with trophy hunting and wish I had the resources to do a hunt to Africa. This story is about one greedy guide and don't think for a minute he didn't know what he was doing and probably knew what animal he and his customer were going to shoot.

To understand this story, you need start with understanding that 55k in USD foreign currency is a massive amount of money in Zim.
You could get most white Zimbabweans to eat the frackin shingles off their roof and wash it down with hippo pizz if you put that stack in front of them.


Of all the lions running around there, he had to cash in on this one. The guiding community there is pretty small and I hope the other guys will put a real good beating on him for this stunt. I am sure they are not impressed with the global story.

The good Doctor ....who knows??

[guywiththemule]

Anti-hunting propaganda at it`s best. Pure and simple. Anti`s are beating their drums and the weak and pretend, wanna-be, food providers are slobbering their obedience to them.

[diamond k]

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

Anti-hunting propaganda at it`s best. Pure and simple. Anti`s are beating their drums and the weak and pretend, wanna-be, food providers are slobbering their obedience to them.

Agreed ( kind of ) but as hunters we should not give them easy ammo to come after us and should be as a group be vocal in our disgust with any poaching activity and anyone associated with it.

[Talking moose]

Had to defriend a life long school buddy over that article on Facebook.