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06-01-2013, 08:42 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox
Can people still go out and wrangle up a few of the horses and break them like in the old days or is that illegal now?
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They open up capture permits but I believe this past season they pulled them and had none. Not sure about this up and coming season.
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06-01-2013, 08:43 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new LT
Is there any proof that whitetails or Elk can't coexist with the horses.
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Not one bit. They do all the time.
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06-01-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
I've seen elk and horses grazing on the same hillside. So they could coexist and obviously do. Does having horses mean less elk though? If so, is it worth it? Who decides when and if the horses are negatively affecting the elk and who gets to make the decisions about it? Hopefully not Ottawa.
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The point I'm trying to make is that people blame the horses for the decline in elk numbers. Well the Ya Ha is the biggest notable elk population decline anywhere. From 3000 wintering head to a few hundred! Them were mostly resident elk herds from Banff park. This declined started in the early 90's and these elk have never had a wild horse presence to deal with then or now!! So if it's bs that horses are the cause in the ya ha then it's probably safe to say its probably bs everywhere else. Do they compete? For sure! Is that competition causing population difficulties in other animals? Far from it!
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06-01-2013, 08:56 AM
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If the proof is out there that horses are wiping out the elk, eating all the food and devastating the landscape then the proof would be overflowing these threads as I've personally been in threads like this since I came to AO. But not one of these people come up with anything! So next time you guys go out maybe try and show all the damage you see instead of just talking about it. It will make your case a lot better for sure!!
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06-01-2013, 08:56 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
You have a low threshold on proof then IMO. Granted sheepguide went out there and saw some things. I was out in the same are a week earlier and saw differently (not just Ya Ha but the other Forestry areas west of Sundre). I've been out there at least once a month for the past 12 years. Horses are up significantly.
Now it is time for some real science to figure out what their effect is before we grant blanket protection. Will you and sheep accept a finding that includes a cull?
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Maybe to you my threshold of proof is low i don't think so. but for a fact your proof is non existent and everyone can see that ...
If you have been up there at least a month for the last 12 years you must have some pictures or some proof of what the devastation is could you post this?
Last edited by new LT; 06-01-2013 at 09:08 AM.
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06-01-2013, 08:59 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Now it is time for some real science to figure out what their effect is before we grant blanket protection. Will you and sheep accept a finding that includes a cull?
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If you read I've already said horse numbers should be lowered and held. Never once stated other wise. As well I've already said protection of them isn't needed. Not sure how many more times It should be repeated.
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06-01-2013, 09:21 AM
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Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 5,908
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So you really wanna see the difference between horse grazed mountain prairie and non horse grazed???
Here is the parks horse pasture! Inside the fence is horsed grazed at a steady rate by a few head. Only seen 20 total there yesterday but any ways the right side or closest to you is what the elk deer and any wild horses in the area get. Any horse grazing is easily seen out there and damage noted. But the only damage you can see like that or even anything close to that is inside the fence. Not on the free range side!!
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06-01-2013, 09:38 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,391
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This thread has it all romantic flights with Eldon, townies passing through an area 10 years ago.
Google harder boys it might help at least you can do that from the couch.
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06-01-2013, 09:41 AM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopher
This thread has it all romantic flights with Eldon, townies passing through an area 10 years ago.
Google harder boys it might help at least you can do that from the couch.
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This page on this thread wouldn't be complete without you making a comment about a couch. Thanks for keeping it consistent
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06-01-2013, 09:53 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadyaz
This page on this thread wouldn't be complete without you making a comment about a couch. Thanks for keeping it consistent
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At least you are not adding to a thread on a subject you know nothing about. You must call your couch a sofa?
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06-01-2013, 10:01 AM
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopher
At least you are not adding to a thread on a subject you know nothing about. You must call your couch a sofa?
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I don't feel the need to contribute to a thread that I know nothing about when I can read insightful comments such as yours.
And I actually prefer Davenport to both sofa and couch
(response typed from my couch)
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06-01-2013, 10:25 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chadyaz
I don't feel the need to contribute to a thread that I know nothing about when I can read insightful comments such as yours.
And I actually prefer Davenport to both sofa and couch
(response typed from my couch)
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My experience with wild horses doesn't come from me sitting on a Daveno.
I didn't know what a Davenport was or a Daveno but google told me. Becoming an expert on couches is just that easy.
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06-01-2013, 11:13 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Yes she can. Or we can intervene like we do in virtually every other facet of existence and ensure we get a result that isn't detrimental to both.
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Not sure if I can agree with this statement. We create more problems than we solve, it's a vicious circle. We create a problem, fix problem and create new ones in the process. The major driving force of change on our planet now is humans. Pre-humans, geological, cosmic and climate changes were the major driving force, but not now. Those processes took eons of time, humans do it in a fraction of time. Look at the issue at hand - "wild horses" in Alberta - horses evolved and went extinct in NA; horses migrate to Asia and continued to evolve, humans domesticated them and then brought them back to NA thousands of years later; humans kill off the bison, drive elk and grizzly's into the mountains, plant foreign grasses for food; now the "domestic" horses have escaped and "re-taken" land there extremely distant relatives once inhabited and are "competing" with animals that have called that land home for thousands of years; humans say oh crap we need to fix this, but surely we have to have the best of all worlds - big mess, all created by us, imo. Species have come and gone off our planet since life first began, maybe it is all part the "bigger" plan of the universe, who knows lol
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06-01-2013, 12:04 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new LT
Maybe to you my threshold of proof is low i don't think so. but for a fact your proof is non existent and everyone can see that ...
If you have been up there at least a month for the last 12 years you must have some pictures or some proof of what the devastation is could you post this?
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Just saying that one post from one guy on one day is not conclusive proof of anything. When he was in the Ya Ha he says there was no horse sign. When I was there I saw actual horses. The areas we were in appear to be different. He doesn't have pics of horses in Ya Ha -- that doesn't mean they're not there. I don't have pics of the horses I saw there because I wasn't seeing this thread in the future. His lack of pictures is no more damning than my lack of pictures. There needs to be some real scientific research done before I'm going to be completely convinced of either side of things.
I'm not one of the ones talking about devastation. I haven't seen it and don't know and haven't specifically looked for it. That's why I said pics from August would be more informative than pics from May.
I have a ton of horse pics but stopped taking them years ago when seeing a horse back there became as common as seeing a raven. They're just always there. Now sheep and some others are talking JUST about Ya Ha. Others are talking about eradication. Others are talking about catching versus shooting.
I am talking about the entire area from the Rig Street vicinity south to the road corridor sanctuary west of Water Valley. Like sheepguide I believe in control not total eradication. I think the best way to do it is through selective shooting. You and others don't like the optics of that but I feel it is inherently more humane than trapping, transport and slaughter. The trapping plays better in the press than shooting but the end result is the same with the trapped animals experiencing much more stress. Hunting will draw initial outcry and protests but will go away shortly -- it always does.
Leaving them to just continue with no controls is not an option and it won't happen regardless of what law gets passed in Ottawa.
We have multiple different viewpoints coming in from all sides and it seems that most of us -- including me -- are mixing up who has said what and holds what belief. I hope I have clarified my position.
__________________
Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity.
Marshall McLuhan
Last edited by sjemac; 06-01-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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06-01-2013, 12:05 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
A few pics of the grass land at the Ya Ha today,
What allot of the flats look like. Definitely more in need of a good burn not grazed off by to many horses!
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Not knocking your integrity, or trying to be a douche bag, BUT, one could argue that your photos and videos are biased ... only took those that support your cause. However, no one has produced photo evidence to contradict you either.
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06-01-2013, 12:16 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBHunter
Not knocking your integrity, or trying to be a douche bag, BUT, one could argue that your photos and videos are biased ... only took those that support your cause. However, no one has produced photo evidence to contradict you either.
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Like I said I'll put up my time and the gas money and you come with me or any nay Sayers on here for that matter and I'll video any of you showing the horse sign and damage out there. So if you are all so confident then name the time! I'm available any time so saddle up everyone and show exactly how confident you really are. Anyone that figures I'm bull****ting about the ya ha then put up or shut up. I at least have shown more than just my opinion. More than anyone else can say!
And I have more video of more off the flats void of horse sign I'll upload today when we are done working horses!!
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06-01-2013, 12:34 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Just saying that one post from one guy on one day is not conclusive proof of anything. When he was in the Ya Ha he says there was no horse sign. When I was there I saw actual horses. The areas we were in appear to be different. He doesn't have pics of horses in Ya Ha -- that doesn't mean they're not there. I don't have pics of the horses I saw there because I wasn't seeing this thread in the future. His lack of pictures is no more damning than my lack of pictures. There needs to be some real scientific research done before I'm going to be completely convinced of either side of things.
I'm not one of the ones talking about devastation. I haven't seen it and don't know and haven't specifically looked for it. That's why I said pics from August would be more informative than pics from May.
I have a ton of horse pics but stopped taking them years ago when seeing a horse back there became as common as seeing a raven. They're just always there. Now sheep and some others are talking JUST about Ya Ha. Others are talking about eradication. Others are talking about catching versus shooting.
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Only reason I'm talking about the YaHa as a member brought it up as being a major issue and having flown it and keeps bringing up the growing season there. So that is my reasoning on the Ya Ha. The other is the elk issue. If the Ya Ha elk issue is shown to have no horse issues then that can reflect on the whole province's elk issues. It will point to other problems that should be delt with a lot earlier than the horses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
I am talking about the entire area from the Rig Street vicinity south to the road corridor sanctuary west of Water Valley. Like sheepguide I believe in control not total eradication. I think the best way to do it is through selective shooting. You and others don't like the optics of that but I feel it is inherently more humane than trapping, transport and slaughter. The trapping plays better in the press than shooting but the end result is the same with the trapped animals experiencing much more stress. Hunting will draw initial outcry and protests but will go away shortly -- it always does.
Leaving them to just continue with no controls is not an option and it won't happen regardless of what law gets passed in Ottawa.
We have multiple different viewpoints coming in from all sides and it seems that most of us -- including me -- are mixing up who has said what and holds what belief. I hope I have clarified my position.
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And it's a lot larger area than from Rig Street south! There are a lot of different herds spred through out from Kananaskis north to the Kakwa and many areas between
Last edited by sheepguide; 06-01-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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06-01-2013, 01:03 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
Like I said I'll put up my time and the gas money and you come with me or any nay Sayers on here for that matter and I'll video any of you showing the horse sign and damage out there. So if you are all so confident then name the time! I'm available any time so saddle up everyone and show exactly how confident you really are. Anyone that figures I'm bull****ting about the ya ha then put up or shut up. I at least have shown more than just my opinion. More than anyone else can say!
And I have more video of more off the flats void of horse sign I'll upload today when we are done working horses!!
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BAM!!!!!!!!!
nuff said.
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06-01-2013, 01:42 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
Like I said I'll put up my time and the gas money and you come with me or any nay Sayers on here for that matter and I'll video any of you showing the horse sign and damage out there. So if you are all so confident then name the time! I'm available any time so saddle up everyone and show exactly how confident you really are. Anyone that figures I'm bull****ting about the ya ha then put up or shut up. I at least have shown more than just my opinion. More than anyone else can say!
And I have more video of more off the flats void of horse sign I'll upload today when we are done working horses!!
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Just post up here when you would like to go and we can line it up. Look forward to guys showing me a thing or two out there. Always up for a learning experience.
And don't be shy!!! Your not on here!!
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06-01-2013, 02:07 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,952
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Dang Darcy that's a pretty nice offer.
Ain't gotta horse but I got a few quads.
__________________
Smoke or Fire in the Forest Dial 310-FIRE
thegungirl.ca @gmail.com
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06-01-2013, 02:22 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda450
Dang Darcy that's a pretty nice offer.
Ain't gotta horse but I got a few quads.
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Quads, horses, feet, peddle bikes or even mobile
Couches!!!
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06-01-2013, 02:29 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Anytime you you wanna go out Honda let me know I'll gladly go with you!!!
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06-01-2013, 02:34 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 6,952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
Anytime you you wanna go out Honda let me know I'll gladly go with you!!!
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More like I would go with you. You know the area I don't. Heck of an offer though. Thanks.
__________________
Smoke or Fire in the Forest Dial 310-FIRE
thegungirl.ca @gmail.com
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06-01-2013, 03:08 PM
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Banned
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Anytime.
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06-01-2013, 05:10 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
Only reason I'm talking about the YaHa as a member brought it up as being a major issue and having flown it and keeps bringing up the growing season there. So that is my reasoning on the Ya Ha. The other is the elk issue. If the Ya Ha elk issue is shown to have no horse issues then that can reflect on the whole province's elk issues. It will point to other problems that should be delt with a lot earlier than the horses.
And it's a lot larger area than from Rig Street south! There are a lot of different herds spred through out from Kananaskis north to the Kakwa and many areas between
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Got that but I wouldn't want to be speaking about areas I don't know. We're pretty much on the same page. It's the how of the control we differ on.
__________________
Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity.
Marshall McLuhan
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06-01-2013, 05:13 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Got that but I wouldn't want to be speaking about areas I don't know. We're pretty much on the same page. It's the how of the control we differ on.
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They just need to open up capture permits and leave them open. Quit shutting them down. And open up more of them. It's the only thing that will work with out any reprocusions from the public.
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06-01-2013, 05:44 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Just saying that one post from one guy on one day is not conclusive proof of anything. When he was in the Ya Ha he says there was no horse sign. When I was there I saw actual horses. The areas we were in appear to be different. He doesn't have pics of horses in Ya Ha -- that doesn't mean they're not there. I don't have pics of the horses I saw there because I wasn't seeing this thread in the future. His lack of pictures is no more damning than my lack of pictures. There needs to be some real scientific research done before I'm going to be completely convinced of either side of things.
I'm not one of the ones talking about devastation. I haven't seen it and don't know and haven't specifically looked for it. That's why I said pics from August would be more informative than pics from May.
I have a ton of horse pics but stopped taking them years ago when seeing a horse back there became as common as seeing a raven. They're just always there. Now sheep and some others are talking JUST about Ya Ha. Others are talking about eradication. Others are talking about catching versus shooting.
I am talking about the entire area from the Rig Street vicinity south to the road corridor sanctuary west of Water Valley. Like sheepguide I believe in control not total eradication. I think the best way to do it is through selective shooting. You and others don't like the optics of that but I feel it is inherently more humane than trapping, transport and slaughter. The trapping plays better in the press than shooting but the end result is the same with the trapped animals experiencing much more stress. Hunting will draw initial outcry and protests but will go away shortly -- it always does.
Leaving them to just continue with no controls is not an option and it won't happen regardless of what law gets passed in Ottawa.
We have multiple different viewpoints coming in from all sides and it seems that most of us -- including me -- are mixing up who has said what and holds what belief. I hope I have clarified my position.
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Well said! Selective shooting would also be my choice. Knowing horses well-this trapping, transport and slaughter has never sat well with me on so many levels. Stress on a wild horse would be unfathomable. Awake one moment, asleep the next, almost perfect.
Like you say, leaving them with no controls is not the answer
Last edited by creeky; 06-01-2013 at 05:48 PM.
Reason: Add comment
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06-01-2013, 06:10 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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A bit more horse sign at the Ya Ha. South eastern portion of the flats.
http://youtu.be/EsdTzjgh3xo
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06-01-2013, 06:22 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepguide
They just need to open up capture permits and leave them open. Quit shutting them down. And open up more of them. It's the only thing that will work with out any reprocusions from the public.
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Until the hidden camera footage follows the horses from freedom to slaughter.
__________________
Moral indignation is a technique used to endow the idiot with dignity.
Marshall McLuhan
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06-01-2013, 06:36 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Rimbey
Posts: 5,908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjemac
Until the hidden camera footage follows the horses from freedom to slaughter.
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A lot different than what the public will perceive when the hunt for horses is opened. You guys act like it will just go away but that is one sided thinking. The wrong hands gets a hold of hunters wanting to kill horses the results are going to be worse. The horse slaughter issue is already ongoing so it will be just a continuing process not a total new issue the public will see opened out.
Here is a thought. You all talk about eating horse but why does not one of you guys go stop the slaughter of horses and get you horse fix now?? Bet most of you aren't ballsy enough to run all this horse hunting past your wife and kids LOL but im sure you will all say they are good with it!
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