Here we go again re: feral horses

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Rman

I have read this entire thread. I have seen the horses out there on occasion.
I have a few questions, and I am hoping you will answer them.

These are, by definition, feral horses? They are not truly wild? Again, wild would be a deer, or moose, or elk?
I do not see the traction to be gained by calling something that it is not.

Ive watched multiple generations of horses out there born in the wild. They have be that way for for more years than ive been out there and ive travelled that country one way or another since i was born in 1974 so yes many to me are wild as they have never know nor has 20+ generations that I know of prior to thatknow any hand of man or seen the inside of a fence!!

Originally Posted by Rman

Second, I am not one to judge if these horses are causing damage or not. Introduced and invasive species, again, by definition, take habitat and feed away from native species. For every blade of grass a horse eats, that same blade could have been eaten by a native species? I am failing to connect with the "there is enough to go around" argument, so please help me with this.

There is in most of the foothills and eastern slopes more actual grass lands than there has been for a hundred years or better so until I see proof that the horses are actually depriving any other animals from feed I dont believe they are hurting the other wildlife populations. I still feel they need to be controlled but just because they dont need to grow in populations and need to be stabilized

Originally Posted by Rman

I believe I understand the emotion connected to the horses, and I also agree that short term, there would be a stink involved if there was an attempt at a cull. I also believe that allot this comes from the fact many do not understand the difference between wild and feral. It is my opinion that if this difference was explained correctly, then quite of bit of the emotion would be removed. Would you say the same? If not, why?

I dont feel it would cause enough of a change in feelings. People have thoughts on horses no matter where they come from. And that wont change if you tell them anything. Peoples perspective on horses isnt based on how they got where they are.

Originally Posted by Rman

I will not be shy, and obviously believe that feral and introduced species are a threat to any habitat. Moose in Newfoundland are a poor example, as this is one of the rare times that it worked. Those same moose are hunted, and managed. I don't understand swans, and brown trout, and all the rest? Again, by definition alone, feral animals take away habitat from native species.
Other than some great photo ops, what purpose do these animals serve? All of the rest of the animals mentioned on this thread serve a purpose. We can even hunt a bison in this province, but not a feral horse?

You dont feel Brown Trout take away from native fishes? And to you they serve no purpose but to many they are part of the west country, part of many generations of their families childhoods seeing these animals out there. So because you as a human cant hunt something it serves no purpose?

Originally Posted by Rman

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent funding a so called management society, that would only benefit the very few involved, and some escaped livestock, I would like some of these simple questions answered. My opinion is here to be swayed.

R.

[sheepguide]

Here is one video to get it started. Best watched in 1080pHD

http://youtu.be/GwjBrct32kE

Upload is slow as hell for some reason. Anyways you can see in the video its got zero sign of any wintering horses or any horses for that matter. All the flats at the Ya Ha looked this way. There was some very old horse sign to the far east back towards the ridge north of Eagle lake but was pretty minimal and I wouldnt say it was wild horses but more than likely riding horses. But there was no horse sign that was even a year or two old. Lost of spots chewed down really short but these areas had a ton of elk sign and not one piece of horse sign to be located. And if any number of horses would have wintered in this area there would be sign. So those that brought up the horse issue at the Ya Ha didnt have 100% of the facts no matter who they flew with or who did a study here!!

[sheepguide]

A few pics of the grass land at the Ya Ha today,

What allot of the flats look like. Definitely more in need of a good burn not grazed off by to many horses!


Left side is inside an enclosed grass monitoring enclosure. Right side is grazed. Big difference is that there is more willows and such inside the enclosure.


Grass growth at this early stage of the growing season in the bush.

[new LT]

thanks for the video and pics sheepguide definitely no horse damage there infact looks like it needs some grazing before theres a fire.... looks like lots of Elk signs so horses don't seam to be causing them any grief. It's nice when someone proves their statements instead of gumming then back tracking.
thanks again.

[sheepguide]

Got more video but may be a month getting it loaded at this rate lol Ill post more as soon as I can.

[sheepguide]

Cool looking stud horse from today taken just north of Yara creek in the Dog rib burn.

[Ronji]

It's nice when someone proves their statements instead of gumming then back tracking.

I have been following this interesting dialogue, as I have always been curious about the horses. My clients have literally taken thousands of pictures and have asked so many questions that I have been unable to answer. I plan on using this thread as feedback.
Thank you as well.

[Lone_Wolf]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Cool looking stud horse from today taken just north of Yara creek in the Dog rib burn.

That's a nice picture. Did you take it?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Lone_Wolf

That's a nice picture. Did you take it?

You bet. Took it today. Got a bunch more and video as well. Also got video when I first hiked down in there of a whitetail leaving right from by the horses.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You bet. Took it today. Got a bunch more and video as well. Also got video when I first hiked down in there of a whitetail leaving right from by the horses.

Is there any proof that whitetails or Elk can't coexist with the horses.

[Unregistered user]

Some folks like the taste of horse meat so why not issue tags? Some cultures are dead against eating cows or pigs or dogs or seals. Who gives anyone the right to dictate what is and what is not food in a free society?

[new LT]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Some folks like the taste of horse meat so why not issue tags? Some cultures are dead against eating cows or pigs or dogs or seals. Who gives anyone the right to dictate what is and what is not food in a free society?

I would think society it's self.....

[BeeGuy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Some folks like the taste of horse meat so why not issue tags? Some cultures are dead against eating cows or pigs or dogs or seals. Who gives anyone the right to dictate what is and what is not food in a free society?

Agree.

I've had horse and would be happy to have more.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Might want to read my post again and see what area I mentioned and was talking about before you engage your smartness or do you need help sounding out Ya Ha??? There is zero horse sign from the gap west of wild horse through out the flats at the ya ha. Not one horse wintered on any of the big flats!! Maybe them are a new style that don't ****??

I was in the YA HA and pointed out that there were feral horses there -- living, breathing, crapping horses. I then pointed out that they were everywhere else too. I suspect that they hang out near road corridors more than other animals but I am seeing way more now than I did this time 10-12 years ago.

The pics of the grazing areas you took will be more convincing when taken in August/Sept BTW. This is May and the feed is coming up faster than it can be eaten right now.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

Is there any proof that whitetails or Elk can't coexist with the horses.

I've seen elk and horses grazing on the same hillside. So they could coexist and obviously do. Does having horses mean less elk though? If so, is it worth it? Who decides when and if the horses are negatively affecting the elk and who gets to make the decisions about it? Hopefully not Ottawa.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Agree.

I've had horse and would be happy to have more.

no one is stopping you are they?

have ate it myself found it a little to rich..

[new LT]

Originally Posted by sjemac

I've seen elk and horses grazing on the same hillside. So they could coexist and obviously do. Does having horses mean less elk though? If so, is it worth it? Who decides when and if the horses are negatively affecting the elk and who gets to make the decisions about it? Hopefully not Ottawa.

maybe it means less horses some time we don't have to make the decision mother nature can.

[Esox]

Can people still go out and wrangle up a few of the horses and break them like in the old days or is that illegal now?

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

maybe it means less horses some time we don't have to make the decision mother nature can.

Yes she can. Or we can intervene like we do in virtually every other facet of existence and ensure we get a result that isn't detrimental to both. If you really want to leave it all to Mother Nature then cancel all seasons, tags, development, recreation and grazing. But if you have even one of those then you are no longer leaving it to the good mother so you'd better be prepared to make a decision and live with it.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by sjemac

Yes she can. Or we can intervene like we do in virtually every other facet of existence and ensure we get a result that isn't detrimental to both. If you really want to leave it all to Mother Nature then cancel all seasons, tags, development, recreation and grazing. But if you have even one of those then you are no longer leaving it to the good mother so you'd better be prepared to make a decision and live with it.

we perhaps thats what should be done we will never know will we.

[Unregistered user]

"Save the Zebra Mussell"!

[walking buffalo]

I have not read Sheepguides response yet, it will be interestig to see what concurs and what keeps this thread alive.

Originally Posted by Rman

I have read this entire thread. I have seen the horses out there on occasion.
I have a few questions, and I am hoping you will answer them.

These are, by definition, feral horses? They are not truly wild? Again, wild would be a deer, or moose, or elk?
I do not see the traction to be gained by calling something that it is not.

"Wild" means born and living without interferrence or control from man. Some of these horses are wild, some are stock that have been recently released. ALL of these horses are Feral, as in they are not classified as Wildlife nor are they Native to North America. Deer, elk and moose are Native wildlife species.

The traction hoped for is emotional and legal. Those seeking to garner full protection (No Culling) use the term Wild as opposed to Feral in a romantic sense as well to hopefully train people to describe these horses with a different legal status than currently exist. It's called Propaganda.



Second, I am not one to judge if these horses are causing damage or not. Introduced and invasive species, again, by definition, take habitat and feed away from native species. For every blade of grass a horse eats, that same blade could have been eaten by a native species? I am failing to connect with the "there is enough to go around" argument, so please help me with this.

There are some older research papers from Alberta that show the horses have a relatively small impact on other wildlife when maintained at a low population. There is some new research happening right now. Results will hopefully be out soon.
Studies from the States show that Feral horses can have a tremendous negative effect on other Wildlife when their population reaches specific thresholds. In particular, American studies have shown that Feral horse will displace Bighorn Sheep from critical range at all seasons of the year.

Beyond competition for food resources, Horses can also increase predator populations by providing an alternative food source. The increased predator population can cause an increased mortality on other wildlife.


I believe I understand the emotion conected to the horses, and I also agree that short term, there would be a stink involved if there was an attempt at a cull. I also believe that alot this comes from the fact many do not understand the difference between wild and feral. It is my opinion that if this difference was explained corectly, then quite of bit of the emotion would be removed. Would you say the same? If not, why?

The stink would be passive in general, and last as long as a cup of coffee. We have been through this with many other situations, a few people will be seriously opposed, most opposed will care for about 5 minutes and do nothing, and most people will not have a clue what is going on. This is a false alarm...


I will not be shy, and obviously believe that feral and introduced species are a threat to any habitat. Moose in Newfoundland are a poor example, as this is one of the rare times that it worked. Those same moose are hunted, and managed. I don't understand swans, and brown trout, and all the rest? Again, by definition alone, feral animals take away habitat from native species.
Other than some great photo ops, what purpose do these animals serve? All of the rest of the animals mentioned on this thread serve a purpose. We can even hunt a bison in this province, but not a feral horse?

We now have programs in place to erradicate Brook and Rainbow trout from specific waters in an effort to get rid of these non-native fish as they will displace and cross breed with Bull and Cutthroat trout. In general, brown trout do not harm native fish to a serious degree.

Other than photos or feel good encounters, not too much.

Feral horses can be trapped under specific terms and licencing. The petition is about eliminating this management option.




Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent funding a so called management society, that would only benefit the very few involved, and some escaped livestock, I would like some of these simple questions answered. My opinion is here to be swayed.

R.

Originally Posted by sjemac

I've seen elk and horses grazing on the same hillside. So they could coexist and obviously do. Does having horses mean less elk though? If so, is it worth it? Who decides when and if the horses are negatively affecting the elk and who gets to make the decisions about it? Hopefully not Ottawa.

Co-exist. Sure.
Without negative consequences for the elk? Nope. There is competition, relative to the population density of both species.
Hopefully and I do expect that this petition to wrangle control of these Feral animals away from the province will fail.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

"Save the Zebra Mussell"!

They seem to be doing ok themselves and cleaning up the water quite well.

[Unregistered user]

Ugh!

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

......
Co-exist. Sure.
Without negative consequences for the elk? Nope. There is competition, relative to the population density of both species.Hopefully and I do expect that this petition to wrangle control of these Feral animals away from the province will fail.

It is much more complicated than that. Feral horses stay on the best winter forage all day long and they stay on it until it is consumed, leaving nothing for the elk to feed on. Predators don't bother them or chase them off the feed as they do with elk.

[new LT]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I have not read Sheepguides response yet, it will be interestig to see what concurs and what keeps this thread alive.










Co-exist. Sure.
Without negative consequences for the elk? Nope. There is competition, relative to the population density of both species.
Hopefully and I do expect that this petition to wrangle control of these Feral animals away from the province will fail.

Why is it that everyone comes on with all this propaganda about how devestating the horses are to the wild life and the habitat but yet no one produces any proof. Except
Sheepguide who prooves the oposite.

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

It is much more complicated than that. Feral horses stay on the best winter forage all day long and they stay on it until it is consumed, leaving nothing for the elk to feed on. Predators don't bother them or chase them off the feed as they do with elk.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by BeeGuy

Agree.

I've had horse and would be happy to have more.

I was going to try it once, but I was worried that it might give me the trots.

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by new LT

Why is it that everyone comes on with all this propaganda about how devestating the horses are to the wild life and the habitat but yet no one produces any proof. Except
Sheepguide who prooves the oposite.

You have a low threshold on proof then IMO. Granted sheepguide went out there and saw some things. I was out in the same are a week earlier and saw differently (not just Ya Ha but the other Forestry areas west of Sundre). I've been out there at least once a month for the past 12 years. Horses are up significantly.

Now it is time for some real science to figure out what their effect is before we grant blanket protection. Will you and sheep accept a finding that includes a cull?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sjemac

I was in the YA HA and pointed out that there were feral horses there -- living, breathing, crapping horses. I then pointed out that they were everywhere else too. I suspect that they hang out near road corridors more than other animals but I am seeing way more now than I did this time 10-12 years ago.

The pics of the grazing areas you took will be more convincing when taken in August/Sept BTW. This is May and the feed is coming up faster than it can be eaten right now.

So explain to me the lack of horse crap?? Explain to me why many of the areas are choked out by dead grass? Explain to me why when I hiked from thaw bighorn NE to the cut blocks then along the flats at the base of the ridge to the eagle lake staging area then zig zagged along the ridge above the road was there absolutely no horse sign? Why also is there absolutely no fresh or even old sign along on on the roads. All the sign ends right at the Gap at the Jap Crossing just past the wild horse camp ground.

And I'm not saying there isn't a small herd tucked in somewhere but they sure as hell don't hang anywhere on the ya ha flats for any period of time and that I will argue and show more video of!! And they are far from causing any of the Ya Ha issues!! All you have to do is look where the burn went through the gap. Most luscious grass in the area and all that is feeding there is bighorns and deer!

So like I offered others anytime you wish to argue the fact more strap on your boots and lets go for a hike! I'm out in the west country a couple times a week usually and will cover the fuel and I can video you explain the damage and the horse sign you come up with!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sjemac

You have a low threshold on proof then IMO. Granted sheepguide went out there and saw some things. I was out in the same are a week earlier and saw differently (not just Ya Ha but the other Forestry areas west of Sundre). I've been out there at least once a month for the past 12 years. Horses are up significantly.

Now it is time for some real science to figure out what their effect is before we grant blanket protection. Will you and sheep accept a finding that includes a cull?

The part you don't grasp is no one has said horse numbers aren't up! But at the YaHa they sure aren't!! With the open country west of 22 opening up with hundreds of cut blocks and the big burn the grass is a an all time high and horses are flourishing hence why I commented that numbers need to be controlled!