Here we go again re: feral horses

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Donkey Oatey

I've said it before I'll say it again. Treat those horses the same as the horses at CFB Suffield. Round em up, anyone that wants can buy one if not off to Ft. MacLeod to be packaged for sale.

Sure there was an uproar about Suffield horses, lasted about a month and never heard from again really.

Horses built society in North America, I get that. Horses are a useful tool, I get that too. What I don't get is why a livestock animal that is a useful tool is being left to procreate uncontrollably out in the wild.

To me horses have a place, and that place is behind a fence.

Just a note but it would be physically impossible to round up all the horses in the west country. But it would be some fun watching LoL

[lannie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Just a note but it would be physically impossible to round up all the horses in the west country. But it would be some fun watching LoL

Bait them
Horses like dogs were domesticated eons ago, that's why they are called feral.
They are not any harder to catch now than that point in history.
Start feeding stations in the winter and your success rate would be very, very high. Rounding them up would be a unrealistic fool hardy waste of time.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by lannie

Bait them
Horses like dogs were domesticated eons ago, that's why they are called feral.
They are not any harder to catch now than that point in history.
Start feeding stations in the winter and your success rate would be very, very high. Rounding them up would be a unrealistic fool hardy waste of time.

Yep works on a good number of them for sure but there is far from enough guys going to go out in the dead of winter off the roads and find every band in the whole province.
Then in many areas to try and get bait back in and traps built and once the hundreds of head are caught get them many miles back to waiting trucks is another step. We've done it on a few younger horses and works but is far from easy and try getting halters on some of them older studs and mares and see what happens to ya. Let alone trying to lead them out of the back country! Then try all this on hundreds of head and there isn't gunna be many cowboys left wanting to do it.

As for baiting and shooting well I guarantee not many guys would do it. All the big talkers here would take an easy one but very very few if any would go bait and hunt a horse to the point that they would make any difference on the population.

[avb3]

Sheep hunter, you still didn't answer the question about what the effective growing season for the grass on the Ya Ya Tinda is.

When you can answer that question then we can discuss intelligently about the impact negatively that horses have on the wintering habitat for elk.

Elk belong there, horses don't.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by albertadave

No. Not "exactly" at all. You completely missed the point. Wasn't suggesting that in any way, so please don't put words in my mouth. And FYI, killing "all of them" is not a cull. That would be an eradication.

Eradication, ok I'M down with that.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

....As for baiting and shooting well I guarantee not many guys would do it. All the big talkers here would take an easy one but very very few if any would go bait and hunt a horse to the point that they would make any difference on the population.

YOU guarantee, that is laughable. No need to be building baits or corals you just drive up to them and shoot. In one day, ONE DAY.... I could have reduced their population by 50.

[gopher]

Originally Posted by avb3

Gee with an attitude like that, it surprised that you would support fishing wildlife doing aerial surveys on ungulate populations.

I mean what could they possibly learn by flying over those critters and that landscape.

Fish and wildlife bring a camera along while there out burning tax dollars in helicopters?

Next time you tell fantasy storys with you and Eldon flying around in helicopters add that the pilot flew in 'Nam. Throw in a near death tree top flight snaking down river bottoms the other couch riders you are telling it to will eat the story up.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by avb3

Sheep hunter, you still didn't answer the question about what the effective growing season for the grass on the Ya Ya Tinda is.

When you can answer that question then we can discuss intelligently about the impact negatively that horses have on the wintering habitat for elk.

Elk belong there, horses don't.

Honestly I don't know the growing season at the Ya Ha. But I do know that the park horses are the main horse herd at the ranch as very very few wild horses have migrated in past the gap. To use your growing season topic horse numbers would have to be at a point to harm the land scape and by using the ya ha your not covering much of a wild horse issue. You will be dealing more with the parks Canada horses which as well are very minimal there in this day and age and especially during any of the growing season when they are moved off the range for patrolling!!

So tell me what is the wild horse count at the ya ha? That honestly live in the area between scalp creek, skeleton creek and timber creek Dog rib, banff park, eagle lake/james pass and jap crossing ? Like I said lets take a drive one day and I'll video you showing members all the horses at the ya ha and all the damage!

[creeky]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

Eradication, ok I'M down with that.

manage their numbers, eradicating them would be at best narrow minded

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

YOU guarantee, that is laughable. No need to be building baits or corals you just drive up to them and shoot. In one day, ONE DAY.... I could have reduced their population by 50.

Exactly all the horses along roads would be done for sure but true heros such as the Houndsman community refers to you would never find a quarter of the horses out there!! Only a percentage live anywhere near a road. Or are you going to skidoo or quad every inch just shooting and leaving as well. Again you are the type that make these comments that will actually cause the horses to be protected. Again you continue to show you brilliance with you inability to contribute with any amout of intellegance. Keep up the show. It's always nice to see that people arent afraid to show their inequalities even if they make themselves look like the last study the did was on what crayon and window tasted the best!

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by avb3

Sheep hunter, you still didn't answer the question about what the effective growing season for the grass on the Ya Ya Tinda is.

When you can answer that question then we can discuss intelligently about the impact negatively that horses have on the wintering habitat for elk.

Elk belong there, horses don't.

The horses were mentioned by palliser in the first survey of the 49º parallel , a little after David Thompson. So in fact no white person can say they do not belong as the horses from that position have always been there. We on the other hand have not.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by avb3

Sheep hunter, you still didn't answer the question about what the effective growing season for the grass on the Ya Ya Tinda is.

When you can answer that question then we can discuss intelligently about the impact negatively that horses have on the wintering habitat for elk.

Elk belong there, horses don't.

And you really want an issue at the Ya Ha then just wait until parks get the buffalo going like they want to and they start migrating out to the ranch! I witnessed When guiding in the Yukon what them buffalo do not just in the vally medows but also on the high sheep wintering grounds and it scares me to think they are gunna be full force in our mountain areas due to parks mental blocks!

[gopher]

Originally Posted by Nait Hadya

YOU guarantee, that is laughable. No need to be building baits or corals you just drive up to them and shoot. In one day, ONE DAY.... I could have reduced their population by 50.

How did you get the couch in the vehicle you were driving? I hope you didn't drive to far off the grid would have been life altering for you with out 3G net work.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

And you really want an issue at the Ya Ha then just wait until parks get the buffalo going like they want to and they start migrating out to the ranch! I witnessed When guiding in the Yukon what them buffalo do not just in the vally medows but also on the high sheep wintering grounds and it scares me to think they are gunna be full force in our mountain areas due to parks mental blocks!

Why save the "non native/ un-natural horses" when we can put the native bison (yes bison, buffalo live in Africa and Asia) back into it's "natural" habitat ... surely bison are more deserving of "heritage animal" status ... then we can argue over how the bison are out competing our elk/deer/moose populations and how best deal with the problems we as humans have, yet again, created ;P

Hmm, was replacing the horses in Suffield with elk a good thing or a bad thing? Maybe they should have added bison into that mix as well. Heck maybe we should just replace all the cattle in Alberta with bison lol wow, that would be something hehe

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Why save the "non native/ un-natural horses" when we can put the native bison (yes bison, buffalo live in Africa and Asia) back into it's "natural" habitat ... surely bison are more deserving of "heritage animal" status ... then we can argue over how the bison are out competing our elk/deer/moose populations and how best deal with the problems we as humans have, yet again, created ;P

Hmm, was replacing the horses in Suffield with elk a good thing or a bad thing? Maybe they should have added bison into that mix as well. Heck maybe we should just replace all the cattle in Alberta with bison lol wow, that would be something hehe

All I can say is good luck!! The areas the "bison" are being introduced has no horse numbers the areas they will overflow have very minimal if any horse numbers so they are adding one more animal into an area that is already having population issues with other animals! Sounds smart to me! I seen the sheep range in the yukon these Bison took over and how much they control the habitat over other populations.
Not to mention human conflicts!! My horse wranglers carried rifles in the Yukon and it was more for bison than bears! Like I said good luck to all that support this fiasco!!

[Arachnodisiac]

I think that reintroducing bison can be a good solution for managing grasslands, but we have to be very, very smart about it. For instance, how are numbers going to be managed? Do they have enough space to really exhibit natural behaviours that serve to manage the available grass? If the area is not large enough, then pasture management and grazing rotation have to be employed.

As a general rule, I'm in favour of removing feral populations, especially in sensitive habitat. However, as it pertains to Alberta, I think the feral horse populations need to be looked at not on a provincial basis, but piece-by-piece. Grasslands need to be grazed to be productive, as well as to help manage wildfire risk. There needs to be a lot of planning in grassland management, and alpine and foothills grass management is equally sensitive, and requires a different knowledge base as well.

I think that if we look at each area individually and start with the grass up, we'll have a good working start on where to cull, and where to reintroduce if that is a viable option in some areas.

It's an emotional issue, I understand, which makes it all the more important that we go at it from a science-based angle.

[sheepguide]

Good post Arachnodisiac!

[pickrel pat]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Good post Arachnodisiac!

Yes it was... X2.... Very well spoken!

[creeky]

Originally Posted by pickrel pat

Yes it was... X2.... Very well spoken!

X3

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Arachnodisiac

I think that reintroducing bison can be a good solution for managing grasslands, but we have to be very, very smart about it. For instance, how are numbers going to be managed? Do they have enough space to really exhibit natural behaviours that serve to manage the available grass? If the area is not large enough, then pasture management and grazing rotation have to be employed.

As a general rule, I'm in favour of removing feral populations, especially in sensitive habitat. However, as it pertains to Alberta, I think the feral horse populations need to be looked at not on a provincial basis, but piece-by-piece. Grasslands need to be grazed to be productive, as well as to help manage wildfire risk. There needs to be a lot of planning in grassland management, and alpine and foothills grass management is equally sensitive, and requires a different knowledge base as well.

I think that if we look at each area individually and start with the grass up, we'll have a good working start on where to cull, and where to reintroduce if that is a viable option in some areas.

It's an emotional issue, I understand, which makes it all the more important that we go at it from a science-based angle.

I'm a bit confused with this sentence. Are you suggesting "reintroducing" horses or is this part of your comment confined to bison?


It's too bad someone like you is not spearheading the petiton, 'cause the petitioners could care less about complete range management, they simply want complete control of managing these feral horses.

[foothillsman]

Random thoughts. I heard them on Rutherford and they never mentioned a National Park for horses. They are saying that the horses are native to America which is a LOAD OF CRAP. Wild horses did exist on this continent but went extinct before Europeans landed, or so I've read, from an article that is not politically biased. Spaniards and later settlers reintroduced horses form Europe. My idea was to get the horses into a small area/preserve and seperate/ move them out of the foothills. This way numbers can be controlled at their expense not ours. This would lead to better control of public lands/ wildlife

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Some of them are Wild horses. All of them are Feral horses.








Random thoughts or are you privy to the petition's agenda?

Other than excluding taxpayer's money, you pretty much nailed the desire of those behind the petition.



-Declare the species Native wildlife and give full protection from human caused mortality.
-Create a National Horse Park. Of course all 'Heritage' horses outside of the park will still have full protection.
-And, a Society will be put in charge of managing the species, not the government.... Of course taxpayer's dollars will be used to have WHOAS and the Canadian Wild Horse Foundation execute the Society's function.



If a horse hunt was required for management purposes. I'd apply for a Feral Horse hunting tag. These conjectured claims of public opinion wreaking havoc on the hunting community are laughable. If the general public was so concerned about these horses, the petition would not be neccessary.

Live trapping of the feral population is sufficient to manage the species. The people behind the petition are trying to eliminate this practice. This is not about managing the species, it is about loving and protecting every one until it dies of old age.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Good post Arachnodisiac!

I concur. I made my post because I found it ironic that it is acceptable to save one species, that really is "foreign" to our landscape, in order to have hunter's look good, but it is not acceptable to bring a native species back, which would have consequences, big ones, that might actually increase hunting opportunity (may decrease it as well). Doesn't make sense to me.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

what would the wild nag count be on an educated guess Alberta be 1500, ?? 2000 at the top most ????
ive traveled all the eastern slopes of Alberta on horse back from Waterton, to north of the Chinchaga I have never ever seen much damage if any , done by wild horses, but cattle and sheep oh yes the damage done by them is irreparable. even fenced in pastures the damage done by horses is nothing compared to cattle, so what is everyone trying to say here exactly??????

I think the horses aint all as bad as the slob people (and their gabage dumps in the back country),
and greedy lazy farmers and ranchers that just turn their cattle out and don't check on them till the snow flies,
then cry and whine because 2 or 3 are missing
IMHO I say lets cut back on cattle grazing in the gvnmt pasture lands , that will give more grass for the elk and deer , then they wont whine so bad because they 2 elk feeding on their hay that they was to lazy to haul in the fall

[Rman]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Good post Arachnodisiac!

I have read this entire thread. I have seen the horses out there on occasion.
I have a few questions, and I am hoping you will answer them.

These are, by definition, feral horses? They are not truly wild? Again, wild would be a deer, or moose, or elk?
I do not see the traction to be gained by calling something that it is not.

Second, I am not one to judge if these horses are causing damage or not. Introduced and invasive species, again, by definition, take habitat and feed away from native species. For every blade of grass a horse eats, that same blade could have been eaten by a native species? I am failing to connect with the "there is enough to go around" argument, so please help me with this.

I believe I understand the emotion conected to the horses, and I also agree that short term, there would be a stink involved if there was an attempt at a cull. I also believe that alot this comes from the fact many do not understand the difference between wild and feral. It is my opinion that if this difference was explained corectly, then quite of bit of the emotion would be removed. Would you say the same? If not, why?

I will not be shy, and obviously believe that feral and introduced species are a threat to any habitat. Moose in Newfoundland are a poor example, as this is one of the rare times that it worked. Those same moose are hunted, and managed. I don't understand swans, and brown trout, and all the rest? Again, by definition alone, feral animals take away habitat from native species.
Other than some great photo ops, what purpose do these animals serve? All of the rest of the animals mentioned on this thread serve a purpose. We can even hunt a bison in this province, but not a feral horse?

Before my hard earned tax dollars are spent funding a so called management society, that would only benefit the very few involved, and some escaped livestock, I would like some of these simple questions answered. My opinion is here to be swayed.

R.

[sheepguide]

Since certain people brought up the horse damage at the ya ha but couldn't back it I decided that I'd go out and see what I've missed the other hundred times I've been there. Well after a few hrs of hiking the ranch and surrounding areas I saw 25 head of parks horses fenced in south of the buildings. Other than that I witnessed no horse or horse sign. I videoed the surrounding area and showed the flats void of any fresh horse piles or sign what so ever. There are a couple from years ago but was most likely from riders as it was near horse trails. I'll post the footage once I'm home and get it uploaded. Also got a shot of a range monitoring enclosed area beside a grazed area. Very minimal difference!!

Pics and Videos to follow!!

[sjemac]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Since certain people brought up the horse damage at the ya ha but couldn't back it I decided that I'd go out and see what I've missed the other hundred times I've been there. Well after a few hrs of hiking the ranch and surrounding areas I saw 25 head of parks horses fenced in south of the buildings. Other than that I witnessed no horse or horse sign. I videoed the surrounding area and showed the flats void of any fresh horse piles or sign what so ever. There are a couple from years ago but was most likely from riders as it was near horse trails. I'll post the footage once I'm home and get it uploaded. Also got a shot of a range monitoring enclosed area beside a grazed area. Very minimal difference!!

Pics and Videos to follow!!

I was there last week. A herd of 15 on the eastern edge (no, not park horses) on the south side of the road. Another 6-7 just a couple miles east of that on the north. About 70-80 from there to the spot where the road to Bearberry goes from gravel to paved. Didn't take pics because I already have hundreds of them.

Must have all died in the meantime.

[sheepguide]

Might want to read my post again and see what area I mentioned and was talking about before you engage your smartness or do you need help sounding out Ya Ha??? There is zero horse sign from the gap west of wild horse through out the flats at the ya ha. Not one horse wintered on any of the big flats!! Maybe them are a new style that don't ****??

[Rman]

Will you answer the questions in my post? They were directed at you.

Thanks.

R.

[sheepguide]

Once I get home to a computer yep!! Still on the west country not riding a couch yet!!

[Rman]

Right on!

Thanks!

R.