Financial Post Headline: (not mine) Notley’s lawsuit to stop power companies from leaving contracts ‘could be a Monty Python script’

[hal53]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly! The agreements are in place, so honor them, whether they fit into your political agenda or not. I also believe that in this case the NDP government should be held accountable for knowingly wasting millions of the taxpayers dollars by trying to break the agreement.

leave the word 'government" out of it, the NDP party should be held accountable....

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Notely's mission it seems is to make Allison Redford look appealing

So far ...so good.

[stubblejumper01]

Originally Posted by 79ford

So no one thinks the companies are trying to dump the ppas because they are unprofitable??lol, Absolutely nothing to do with the price of power slumping below the ppa price?

I guess you guys blame the government for the oil price too so meh, keep on moaning and crying for the power companies that you all whined about when power was bouncing up to 1000$ per meg.

Lots of moaning about power company charges and power companies building power lines it is funny to see eveyone complain when the government tries to hold these companies to their deal.

If the companies keep the money losing ppas they will charge the little guy more, if the government gets them back the people pay.

If the government rescinded any sort of coal phase out or carbon tax the ppas would still lose money.

How do you address ppas that lose money without some one paying for it? Power is too cheap in the open market to make money, there is no fix just a bunch of people pointing fingers and whining.

You seem to be the only one moaning and whining when someone criticizes your beloved NDP.
The power companies were prepared to honour the existing agreement even with the lower prices. But because the NDP didn't do their due diligence when initiating their carbon tax plan, they missed the clause that had been in existence for 16 years that gave the power companies the out they needed.
In regards to the carbon plan they are using which is based on Ontario's plan, they failed to realize that the carbon taxing plan did nothing to improve the air quality in Ontario. There has been no change in air quality from before they shut down the coal electricity generation to after.
Except over 200,000 manufacturing jobs left due to the increased electricity costs.
Oh yeah, the consumers in Ontario are paying $600 - $1000 a month for electricity. So please tell us how the NDP carbon tax is good for us

[79ford]

Originally Posted by stubblejumper01

You seem to be the only one moaning and whining when someone criticizes your beloved NDP.
The power companies were prepared to honour the existing agreement even with the lower prices. But because the NDP didn't do their due diligence when initiating their carbon tax plan, they missed the clause that had been in existence for 16 years that gave the power companies the out they needed.
In regards to the carbon plan they are using which is based on Ontario's plan, they failed to realize that the carbon taxing plan did nothing to improve the air quality in Ontario. There has been no change in air quality from before they shut down the coal electricity generation to after.
Except over 200,000 manufacturing jobs left due to the increased electricity costs.
Oh yeah, the consumers in Ontario are paying $600 - $1000 a month for electricity. So please tell us how the NDP carbon tax is good for us

I never said a carbon tax was good, all i am saying is people are whining on behalf of the power companies and the people will be the ones stuck with the bill.

I am not really a fan of corporate socialism... the socialize losses and privatize profits companies seem to go for when the going gets alittle tough.


Albertas sour power market comes from increased electricity from the shepard power station and utilization of cogeneration for process purposes increasing....ei lots of companies are producing power as a byproduct of steaming bitumin and other processing activities so their tie to the power price is not as critical, they will produce power regardless of price to carry out activities.

The battle is more politically strung than anything, most of these companies have made a tonne of money on these things and the writedowns are just a cost of doing business when trashing the ppa now.


Natural gas is beating coal into the dirt these days, coal just cant compete, it is happening all over the place. Coal only makes sense at 6$ nat gas, nat gas at 2.26 could run coal right out of business eventually on economics alone.

If you read any of my postings you would find that i support refining/upgrading and petrochemicals manufacturing. For power generation i fully support a move towards natural gas to create more local demand for our gas as export markets in the usa dry up as their gas production continues to expand.

The only power plant to shut down so far has been HR Milner, and they are restarting on natural gas when the power prices come back to a feasible range to produce.

Taking a stab at government when throwing in the towel on something is always a must.


I dont agree with the ndp on alot of things but Notley is sticking to her guns, she has more balls than most men before her lol, the corporations are probably unnerved that the government doesnt just roll over and do whatever for them all the time.

[stubblejumper01]

Ok you make some good points. I am not in favour of the power companies either.
I'm just saying that they abided by the agreement reached in 2000 , and were going to continue under those terms. However th NDP rushed to push the carbon tax and green initiative on us but never fully researched all the affected industries and agreements in place. They didn't do their homework and when the power companies crunched the numbers they realized how much it would cost and are choosing to use the opt out clause that has been in effect for the last 16 years.
The minister was on Ched talking about this and she said they never knew about the clause until the power company chose to use it. That just shows they never did the research and were caught off guard. Their solution was to take it to court to get the previous agreement overruled because they couldn't admit the mistake they made. They claim letting the power companies opt out could cost us $2 billion which it very well may, and none of us want our power cost to increase. Who knows how much the lawsuits will cost. It will probably end up in the Supreme Court of Canada.
Yet they announced that they have already spent $4.4 billion to advertise and promote their green initiative and carbon scheme. Sometimes it is better to admit you made a mistake and look for a new solution. Ralph sure wasn't perfect but he could admit his mistakes and find a different solution. That takes bigger balls than sticking to your guns sometimes.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by 79ford

I never said a carbon tax was good, all i am saying is people are whining on behalf of the power companies and the people will be the ones stuck with the bill.

I am not really a fan of corporate socialism... the socialize losses and privatize profits companies seem to go for when the going gets alittle tough.


Albertas sour power market comes from increased electricity from the shepard power station and utilization of cogeneration for process purposes increasing....ei lots of companies are producing power as a byproduct of steaming bitumin and other processing activities so their tie to the power price is not as critical, they will produce power regardless of price to carry out activities.

The battle is more politically strung than anything, most of these companies have made a tonne of money on these things and the writedowns are just a cost of doing business when trashing the ppa now.


Natural gas is beating coal into the dirt these days, coal just cant compete, it is happening all over the place. Coal only makes sense at 6$ nat gas, nat gas at 2.26 could run coal right out of business eventually on economics alone.

If you read any of my postings you would find that i support refining/upgrading and petrochemicals manufacturing. For power generation i fully support a move towards natural gas to create more local demand for our gas as export markets in the usa dry up as their gas production continues to expand.

The only power plant to shut down so far has been HR Milner, and they are restarting on natural gas when the power prices come back to a feasible range to produce.

Taking a stab at government when throwing in the towel on something is always a must.


I dont agree with the ndp on alot of things but Notley is sticking to her guns, she has more balls than most men before her lol, the corporations are probably unnerved that the government doesnt just roll over and do whatever for them all the time.

She's trying to break a contractual agreement. One of the big reasons for government's existence is to provide a stable environment that ENFORCES contract law, not breaks it. Who the heck is going to want to invest millions or billions of dollars on a gamble that the government may or may not choose to abide by the conditions set out in a contract? Conditions that make very good sense and turned out to be very prophetic. Have a look at Venezuela when the dictator/leader takes a stand against corporations by breaking contracts with them.

It doesn't take balls to run a province into the ground for the sake of trying to cover up your own incompetence.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by rugatika

She's trying to break a contractual agreement. One of the big reasons for government's existence is to provide a stable environment that ENFORCES contract law, not breaks it. Who the heck is going to want to invest millions or billions of dollars on a gamble that the government may or may not choose to abide by the conditions set out in a contract? Conditions that make very good sense and turned out to be very prophetic. Have a look at Venezuela when the dictator/leader takes a stand against corporations by breaking contracts with them.

It doesn't take balls to run a province into the ground for the sake of trying to cover up your own incompetence.

...or she can't be so dumb as to believe this lawsuit has a snowballs chance...but, the only way she sees to settle it , with 73+% of Albertans against her carbon tax grab, she can cancel the tax and tell all the goofs that voted for her that it is the fault of the big, bad corporations yet again and sigh... we will have to run a "little" higher deficit than the social worker thought because of them....

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by hal53

...or she can't be so dumb as to believe this lawsuit has a snowballs chance...but, the only way she sees to settle it , with 73+% of Albertans against her carbon tax grab, she can cancel the tax and tell all the goofs that voted for her that it is the fault of the big, bad corporations yet again and sigh... we will have to run a "little" higher deficit than the social worker thought because of them....

73 percent are against it? That can't be true. I mean it's the right thing to do. I heard it on the radio.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by coreya3212

73 percent are against it? That can't be true. I mean it's the right thing to do. I heard it on the radio.

I just made that up.......

[dmcbride]

If the NDP does win this law suit is it setting a bad precedent for future investment?

I am sure that these green energy companies are going to write similar contracts that if there is a change in law or government that they will be protected. Now if the NDP does win this law suit, what is to stop the new governing party from re-writing the contracts?

I'm not a lawyer, but this whole thing seems really poorly thought out by the NDP and no matter which way the lawsuit goes we will be footing the bill.

Am I wrong?

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

If the NDP does win this law suit is it setting a bad precedent for future investment?

I am sure that these green energy companies are going to write similar contracts that if there is a change in law or government that they will be protected. Now if the NDP does win this law suit, what is to stop the new governing party from re-writing the contracts?

I'm not a lawyer, but this whole thing seems really poorly thought out by the NDP and no matter which way the lawsuit goes we will be footing the bill.

Am I wrong?

Bang on. This aspect is even more troubling than the billions of dollars this specific incident will cost. Alberta just became a third world dictatorship as far as contract law is concerned, with the government demonstrating that they are willing to trample the law to benefit themselves financially and politically.

A very scary precedent.

[tranq78]

Originally Posted by dmcbride

If the NDP does win this law suit is it setting a bad precedent for future investment?

I am sure that these green energy companies are going to write similar contracts that if there is a change in law or government that they will be protected. Now if the NDP does win this law suit, what is to stop the new governing party from re-writing the contracts?

I'm not a lawyer, but this whole thing seems really poorly thought out by the NDP and no matter which way the lawsuit goes we will be footing the bill.

Am I wrong?

Yes you hit on the most important thing. There are serious long term implications.

The government started a bun fight with the very corporations it needs to be involved in green power and infrastructure. Companies like Enmax, Capital Power.

You know, the guys with deep pockets that can commit to a 20 year green infrastructure project.

Despite the talk of secret Enron clauses and Albertans getting ripped off, the truth is the exit clause was not a secret and it was put there to get companies to commit to a 20 year deal. Who in their right minds is going to commit to a 20 year contract if they know the government can unilaterally change things around the next day?

So after the government extracts $2 billion from these companies they will need to go to these same firms and say "hey, I want you to commit to a 20 year deal for green power". Alrighty then. Good luck.

The government may win the battle but it lost the war. A real pyrrhic victory, this one. But I am not a politician so what do I know about anything.