Why Mandatory Harvest Reports ?

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

^

Lol. To the first quote, they are asking straight up for licensed hunters to participate and report their harvest, yet one refuses to provide a report and says no one listens. There is a pretty good joke on the subject, actually:

You just don't seem to understand the complete waste of time these surveys are, I quite doing them a while back. After years of reading and completing surveys others and myself have come to realize these are not for information or feedback the purpose is only to make you think "you have contributed".

They have an agenda and that does not change regardless of what you say, it makes guys like you feel better because you are contributing, so I guess there is something good comes from it. The only joke really is that people actually believe that a harvest survey like that will have so much missed and incorrect info will actually do some good.

People will fill out these surveys and feel good doing so, mostly because they are so desperate for the govt. to do something right with regard to wildlife management, but most know deep down what a complete wast of time it is. Am I wrong, I sure hope so......... but history proves that I am probably not.

The good thing is I know that at least some of the people responding negatively in this very thread do actually fill out reports. For example, I know elkhunter11 does because I read his comment a while back about keeping the feathers of the pheasants he took to keep the count for reporting; I started doing the same with grouse. It was a good advice.

I am pretty sure I could have done something more satisfying to me than writing this post, but it is too late and it has been written and time (hopefully not) wasted. Lol.

.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by jcrayford

I'm pretty sure that all of us, in some way or another work with datasets in our daily lives & industries.

I am sure you are right about that. I am sure, however, hardly any of us, if any at all, are scientists and/or statisticians.

Originally Posted by jcrayford

The one and only true common component of all of these industries / ways of life is this:

"Sh!t data in, sh!t data out"

This is true. However,

Originally Posted by jcrayford

There is absolutely no way under the current policies of reporting / non-reporting that accurate numbers will be represented, as there are no hard rules for ALL users to submit information period. Until that point in time, the data is useless period.

the accuracy of this data 100% depends on us, the (licensed) hunters. Yes, if everyone followed the same set of rules, life would be much easier, so to speak. Then again, they are asking the LICENSED HUNTERS to participate in the survey so that they can have a clear picture of what is happening in that particular group. That is, the data is not useless. The survey is not meant for Natives or outfitters or any other group. The purpose of the survey is to collect information about a specific set, a group of people, namely licensed hunters, if you like. And it is up to us to provide that information and determine its accuracy.

Originally Posted by jcrayford

While I agree that the numbers need a starting point, there will never be 100% compliance (which is what's needed for any type of analysis) and therefore, the tag allocation will always be skewed.

I am yet to see anyone saying what the real purpose of these reports is. I am fairly confident that these reports alone are not used for tag allocations. If someone could post straight up facts about the use of these reports, I would greatly appreciate it.

Originally Posted by jcrayford

I certainly don't have the answers and I'm not naïve enough to think there will ever be a solution. But to penalize one user group (registered hunters that take the time to report) with lower tag allocations because the occasional aerial survey shows that the numbers of game aren't sufficient to support tag numbers while other groups (FN / APOS) go unchecked is ludicrous. Which is why I will be voting again in the upcoming election so that I can continue to rant like I have above...

(Boy, talk about a train wreck of thoughts early on in the morning....)

J.

True, but a completely different issue. NDP is here now and Conservatives were here before for a long time, but neither had solved the issue you and others are talking about. This is not really a thread about politics though, so I won't go too deep into it. I have not seen any politician (that had any kind of "weight" in the game) jumping around yelling "Let's make it fair for everyone". Nothing will happen until the natives are integrated into and become part of the "rest" of our society. I am out on this discussion though because this is not the thread and the place to chat about it.

Originally Posted by bobalong

You just don't seem to understand the complete waste of time these surveys are, I quite doing them a while back. After years of reading and completing surveys others and myself have come to realize these are not for information or feedback the purpose is only to make you think "you have contributed".

Sure, I may very well be misunderstanding the whole lot of it and I did state that in my previous post (that I might be completely wrong). I also stated a couple of times now, I believe, that I don't not really know what these surveys are for. It appears that no one does though or those who know simply refuse to post. I do, however, understand that no one in their right mind will be making hard decisions based on these reports alone in regards to the population estimates or tag allocations.

Originally Posted by bobalong

They have an agenda and that does not change regardless of what you say, it makes guys like you feel better because you are contributing, so I guess there is something good comes from it. The only joke really is that people actually believe that a harvest survey like that will have so much missed and incorrect info will actually do some good.

Wrong. It does not make me feel better. I do feel that it is the right thing to do though and it only takes a minute for each report.

As for the agenda, everyone has one. A few years back when a different party with a different agenda was steering the wheel, were things that much different in regards to these reports or wildlife management? I don't believe so. (to note here and make things clear, I am not an NDP supporter, lol; not that it really matters)




I did search Google about the purpose of these reports, but with no luck. However, the second link that popped up in my search results suggests the following:

Aerial wildlife survey reports (there are a couple of links there to view the actual reports for 2016 and 2018)

Aerial surveys are the primary method used to assess the population size, distribution, population trends and herd composition of ungulates in Alberta.

These pieces of information are crucial to the effective management and conservation of ungulates, and are used by Alberta Environment and Parks to set hunting licence allocations, identify areas with agricultural depredation problems, and determine priority areas for recovery actions.

Aerial surveys of ungulates have a long history in Alberta, and have continuously evolved to take advantage of new analytical techniques, aircraft, and knowledge of the abundance and distribution of ungulate species.

Currently, aerial surveys are used to monitor all species of ungulates in the province, including white‐tailed and mule deer, moose, elk, bison, caribou, pronghorn antelope, mountain goats, and bighorn sheep.

There were a couple more links to sites where one can find the aerial survey reports prior to 2016.

Lastly, next time someone asks about the WMU he/she should put a draw in for a high priority tag, instead of sending them to look at harvest reports, someone should link this thread in their reply.

[elkhunter11]

the accuracy of this data 100% depends on us, the (licensed) hunters. Yes, if everyone followed the same set of rules, life would be much easier, so to speak. Then again, they are asking the LICENSED HUNTERS to participate in the survey so that they can have a clear picture of what is happening in that particular group. That is, the data is not useless. The survey is not meant for Natives or outfitters or any other group. The purpose of the survey is to collect information about a specific set, a group of people, namely licensed hunters, if you like. And it is up to us to provide that information and determine its accuracy.

If the only harvest group was licensed hunters, the data would be useful, but given that the unlicensed hunters can be responsible for a significant harvest in some areas, trying to estimate harvest based only on the data from the licensed hunters would not be at all accurate, and as such, would be useless.

[mindoutside]

Originally Posted by charves

I think this has to start somewhere.

The more annual data that can be collected, the more easily trends can be identified and accounting for false reporting can be more easily addressed and compensated for.

We are so lucky to have the amount of species and variety of hunting we have.....and to keep it that way, data collecting is even more important.

At least it's an attempt to do something that is trying to make hunting better and monitoring harvest as best possible in Alberta.

If the regs stated that the government has passed a policy that it will NEVER do harvest reports for anyone hunting in Alberta, there'd be mass complaints of how the government is contributing to the decimation of animal numbers and our hunting opportunities.

So in my opinion, it's a choice contribute to the system or not, but if not...then no complaining.

Same idea as this: If you don't vote in an election, then you can't complain about the government.

The monitoring system isn't perfect and likely never will be, but we should all be pressuring each other to contribute to make it the best it can be.

If we don't try.....then nothing will change!

Thanks for saying this. I appreciate conservation for its work as it enables us to do what we love.

Some comments came out saying the reporting system is poor and lackluster, but your point about change is what will eventually create good viable data. But it takes years of learning and improvement. This is a big road block for a lot of people these days, as everyone wants immediate satisfaction and anything that is not immediate must be wrong in their eyes.

I would say a step in the right direction is to have at least a photo of a harvest to verify it actually happened.

We also have to understand that there are budgetary limits and they can't always do exactly what we imagine is the right way or the perfect way if it exists at all.

Poachers are another story. Yea, they can skew the numbers. Yea they won't report. But if you know about analytics, you can compensate for these unknown variables with outside data.

[Outdoorfanatic]

Analytics, trends, data extrapolation/compensation etc.... You've got the lingo but the question stills remains unanswered. That is how do we as hunters ensure that our voice is considered as much or more than that of those who are against recreational hunting? The data can be interpreted anyway any group wants, especially if the data isn't tied to aerial surveys. Antis don't have to actually acquire tags or even win#s to interpret the data their way and as such influence policy their way. For example an aerial survey that shows moose numbers at twice what was expected gives the recreational hunter the data needed to advocate increasing tag allocations, or longer seasons, or any hunting friendly policy. But if all we have is harvest data from the previous handful of years than the wrong groups could easily advocate for less tags on the basis that they feel the harvest is too high. Now we might only be talking about a 30% success on harvest but the aerial survey says that their are twice the moose as what was expected.

The president of the Alberta Bow Hunters association told me that the Mandatory Harvest Report policy priority goes first, Natives second conservation and third recreational hunting. So even anti hunters identify as conservationist and Natives trump everything including current law. So recreational hunting is at best the 2nd place looser. Guys and Gals we are meaningless and are being sold out again.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Just like a computer "Garbage in then Garbage out" Waste of time until "All" play the game.

[West O'5]

Originally Posted by 59whiskers

Right on the money Jcrayford.

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Just like a computer "Garbage in then Garbage out" Waste of time until "All" play the game.

This^^
I find the hunter surveys to be sorely lacking in questions?
"Did you hunt XXX species/WMU?"
How many days?
Were you successful etc etc?

If I filed a real report on my deer hunting season,it would show that I hunted 30+ days in upwards of 4,5,6(?) different WMUs and passed up shots on a couple/few dozen legal bucks....but because I never punched a tag,my responses are likely misinterpreted?
If hunters are reporting high success rates for a particular WMU,is that interpreted as an abundance of game,or as overharvest?
The whole survey is BS,with lame questions that don't accurately reflect the hunting experience or game sighted....who knows how this is interpreted?

Getting back to my earlier post,in reference to NB....back in the day at least there was a moose hunter survey that asked more details about how many moose sighted/could you have shot and did not etc?/how many deer/bear sighted during your moose hunt etc.
Did you kill/fill your tag or not and how many days did you hunt in WMU XXX is hardly a reflection of my hunting season experience.🙄

[hal53]

^^^^ this...I chase white tails pretty much every day the season is open...sometimes its only for an hour in the morning and an hour and a half or so in the evening..but I'm looking every day...usually I see a decent one in the first few days in the season but I decide it's too early to use my tag. Then on the night of Nov. 30th I fold my tag over and put it with all the rest from many years past. My harvest report must be pretty much useless to them as I could have harvested untold does and many many bucks but I chose not to

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the only harvest group was licensed hunters, the data would be useful, but given that the unlicensed hunters can be responsible for a significant harvest in some areas, trying to estimate harvest based only on the data from the licensed hunters would not be at all accurate, and as such, would be useless.

I would agree with this, but the data is being collected for that specific group, the licensed hunters, and that group only. There would be no reason to do any estimates for this specific group if all licensed hunters honestly completed their reports. Not sure how to explain what I mean otherwise, but they are asking for harvest reports from licensed hunters, not natives, poachers or anyone else. If one is familiar with basic mathematics (well, maybe a little beyond basics), an equation with n unknown variables is always easier to solve than an equation with n+1 unknowns. There is absolutely no reason, in my opinion, to make that a n+1 equation in this particular situation. Of course one can talk about agenda and whatnot all he/she wants, but these reports have been around since before the current government, so that point is moot the way I see it.

Are you still submitting your reports, elkhunter? I have a feeling you do.

Overall, after all the posts here, I still see a bunch of guys talking, yet they have no idea why these reports are collected and how they are used.

[Outdoorfanatic]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I would agree with this, but the data is being collected for that specific group, the licensed hunters, and that group only. There would be no reason to do any estimates for this specific group if all licensed hunters honestly completed their reports. Not sure how to explain what I mean otherwise, but they are asking for harvest reports from licensed hunters, not natives, poachers or anyone else. If one is familiar with basic mathematics (well, maybe a little beyond basics), an equation with n unknown variables is always easier to solve than an equation with n+1 unknowns. There is absolutely no reason, in my opinion, to make that a n+1 equation in this particular situation. Of course one can talk about agenda and whatnot all he/she wants, but these reports have been around since before the current government, so that point is moot the way I see it.

Are you still submitting your reports, elkhunter? I have a feeling you do.

Overall, after all the posts here, I still see a bunch of guys talking, yet they have no idea why these reports are collected and how they are used.

So your in favour of the reports great, but other agenda are not mute points. Simple question how do you propose to maintain an equal or greater voice with that of the other agendas? We provide the data but have no way to qualify it ie: with aerial surveys. So what do you propose?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

I would agree with this, but the data is being collected for that specific group, the licensed hunters, and that group only. There would be no reason to do any estimates for this specific group if all licensed hunters honestly completed their reports. Not sure how to explain what I mean otherwise, but they are asking for harvest reports from licensed hunters, not natives, poachers or anyone else. If one is familiar with basic mathematics (well, maybe a little beyond basics), an equation with n unknown variables is always easier to solve than an equation with n+1 unknowns. There is absolutely no reason, in my opinion, to make that a n+1 equation in this particular situation. Of course one can talk about agenda and whatnot all he/she wants, but these reports have been around since before the current government, so that point is moot the way I see it.

Are you still submitting your reports, elkhunter? I have a feeling you do.

Overall, after all the posts here, I still see a bunch of guys talking, yet they have no idea why these reports are collected and how they are used.

Given that you have no idea of the unlicensed hunters harvest, because they don't report, you still don't know the total harvest, so the data is incomplete, and of little value.

[brendan's dad]

I agree, for the data to be useful all "hunters" would need to report. I don't think it would be that difficult to implement. The Treaties give the right to hunt outside the provincial regulations, but implementing mandatory reporting would not impede on the Treaty. It could be argued that the accurate data is needed to ensure the hunting of first nations is maintained and a priority. But we need to be careful and know what we are asking for. If the first nation totals are added to the SRD estimated totals, what will that do to the total number of tags issued? Really tough and sensitive issue.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Outdoorfanatic

So your in favour of the reports great, but other agenda are not mute points. Simple question how do you propose to maintain an equal or greater voice with that of the other agendas? We provide the data but have no way to qualify it ie: with aerial surveys. So what do you propose?

If you could expand a little on what you are asking, I would appreciate it. I just don't want to respond to a question I have a feeling I am misunderstanding.

Also, I am not really sure what the "For us or against us???" refers to.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Given that you have no idea of the unlicensed hunters harvest, because they don't report, you still don't know the total harvest, so the data is incomplete, and of little value.

Not really. I don't need to know anything about unlicensed hunters in order to a have a clear view of what is happening in the licensed hunters community. In fact, if my goal is to inquire about the harvest by licensed hunters, I should not even be concerned about the existence of any other group at all.

You pretty much avoided/ignored every point I made in the post you replied to. You have also not answered a straight up question I asked you

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I agree, for the data to be useful all "hunters" would need to report.

I disagree with this because, like I mentioned, the data for the given set (licensed hunters) can easily be complete and useful (whatever its use is) if everyone participates and everyone is honest about what they report.

To add, and I believe I am repeating it the third or fourth time in this thread and I will even quote myself this time

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Overall, after all the posts here, I still see a bunch of guys talking, yet they have no idea why these reports are collected and how they are used.

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I don't think it would be that difficult to implement. The Treaties give the right to hunt outside the provincial regulations, but implementing mandatory reporting would not impede on the Treaty. It could be argued that the accurate data is needed to ensure the hunting of first nations is maintained and a priority. But we need to be careful and know what we are asking for. If the first nation totals are added to the SRD estimated totals, what will that do to the total number of tags issued? Really tough and sensitive issue.

I am pretty sure it will be very difficult to implement. Doubt there will be too many participants in that hunting group.

I have already commented (my post where I mentioned it is probably still on this very page) on what i think should be done in regards to natives. I have never heard anyone from any political party with any kind of weight talking about any real proposals that would solve the "natives problem". Obligating them to report is obviously not a solution and will never work. Pretty sure the majority will simply ignore those reports and there is nothing one can do to change their minds.

On the other hand, I have a friend, who, if he chose to do so, could get the card tomorrow (hypothetically speaking, of course, because I have no idea how long it actually takes to get that special card) and so could his wife. Yet, neither of them has the card and they enter draws and buy general/undersubscribed tags just like I do. They also both fill out their harvest report every year. Go figure.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

If you could expand a little on what you are asking, I would appreciate it. I just don't want to respond to a question I have a feeling I am misunderstanding.

Also, I am not really sure what the "For us or against us???" refers to.

Not really. I don't need to know anything about unlicensed hunters in order to a have a clear view of what is happening in the licensed hunters community. In fact, if my goal is to inquire about the harvest by licensed hunters, I should not even be concerned about the existence of any other group at all.

You pretty much avoided/ignored every point I made in the post you replied to. You have also not answered a straight up question I asked you

I disagree with this because, like I mentioned, the data for the given set (licensed hunters) can easily be complete and useful (whatever its use is) if everyone participates and everyone is honest about what they report.

To add, and I believe I am repeating it the third or fourth time in this thread and I will even quote myself this time


I am pretty sure it will be very difficult to implement. Doubt there will be too many participants in that hunting group.

I have already commented (my post where I mentioned it is probably still on this very page) on what i think should be done in regards to natives. I have never heard anyone from any political party with any kind of weight talking about any real proposals that would solve the "natives problem". Obligating them to report is obviously not a solution and will never work. Pretty sure the majority will simply ignore those reports and there is nothing one can do to change their minds.

On the other hand, I have a friend, who, if he chose to do so, could get the card tomorrow (hypothetically speaking, of course, because I have no idea how long it actually takes to get that special card) and so could his wife. Yet, neither of them has the card and they enter draws and buy general/undersubscribed tags just like I do. They also both fill out their harvest report every year. Go figure.

Knowing the total harvest from year to year, as well as the total days spent hunting, would be a huge asset in trending the game populations over time, but you can't know the total harvest , unless all hunters participate. The unregulated hunters do not have to obey bag limits, and you don't even know how many there are, so you have no way of knowing what they harvest. One group of unregulated hunters could kill more animals in a given wmu, after the hunting season, than the regulated hunters did, and decimate the population, and you would mistakenly assume that based on the regulated hunter data, the population was unchanged since the previous year.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

If you could expand a little on what you are asking, I would appreciate it. I just don't want to respond to a question I have a feeling I am misunderstanding.

Also, I am not really sure what the "For us or against us???" refers to.

Not really. I don't need to know anything about unlicensed hunters in order to a have a clear view of what is happening in the licensed hunters community. In fact, if my goal is to inquire about the harvest by licensed hunters, I should not even be concerned about the existence of any other group at all.

You pretty much avoided/ignored every point I made in the post you replied to. You have also not answered a straight up question I asked you

I disagree with this because, like I mentioned, the data for the given set (licensed hunters) can easily be complete and useful (whatever its use is) if everyone participates and everyone is honest about what they report.

To add, and I believe I am repeating it the third or fourth time in this thread and I will even quote myself this time


I am pretty sure it will be very difficult to implement. Doubt there will be too many participants in that hunting group.

I have already commented (my post where I mentioned it is probably still on this very page) on what i think should be done in regards to natives. I have never heard anyone from any political party with any kind of weight talking about any real proposals that would solve the "natives problem". Obligating them to report is obviously not a solution and will never work. Pretty sure the majority will simply ignore those reports and there is nothing one can do to change their minds.

On the other hand, I have a friend, who, if he chose to do so, could get the card tomorrow (hypothetically speaking, of course, because I have no idea how long it actually takes to get that special card) and so could his wife. Yet, neither of them has the card and they enter draws and buy general/undersubscribed tags just like I do. They also both fill out their harvest report every year. Go figure.

Do you believe most hunters walk out of the bush without placing a tag on harvested game? Why do they tag their animal? Because it is the law and if they are caught not doing it, then they can be charged and their hunting privileges can be revoked. Why not legislate harvest reporting and have similar penalties as poaching for failure to comply. Make it mandatory at the butcher and taxidermy to provide your harvest report ref # when dropping off your animal. And even though first nation do not need to adhered to 95% of the regulation there are still some rules under the wildlife they must adhere to and are enforced such as hunting at night and caliber size and archery minimums.

The whole "It is a bad idea or rule because some people won't listen" is a grossly over used argument and a lame excuse for not implementing a good law. And believe it or not, there are many good laws out there.

[Bushrat]

We all know harvest reports don't include what is killed by first nations, poachers, and roadkill. What we do know is that when hunter harvest reports show that hunter success rates go up and there is no change in bag limits or season length then it is an indicator that populations are increasing and all the other factors like FN harvest, collision rates will also likely be up, therefore we can assume that using harvest reports is an indicator that populations are rising and vice versa if those kill reports are down. Even if we had accurate reports from all these factors added to the harvest reports we already have from regular hunters it is still not scientific or accurate or be a much better indicator of populations than what we have from the present harvest surveys since we have no numbers provided for predation, poachers, winterkill, and fawn reproduction which will always be the stick in the mud as they can vary wildly from year to year. Harvest reports are basically all we have to use as an indicator. We know there is not enough money to fly every WMU in the province every year and there never will be, flying a handful of WMU's irregularly once or maybe twice every couple decades and never flying a majority WMU's ever is even less accurate. How do we know these air surveys are accurate. I've seen the results of some of these surveys in a WMU I hunt that saw only about 50 mule deer in the entire WMU, I know there are at least that many in just one of the river valleys at one end of the WMU, not including those deer spread along all the other creek bottoms and pockets of them in the farmland all over that WMU. I know one farmer that has 20 or so hanging around his back forty. Can't tell me he has 40% of the whole WMU's population on his property. They use these numbers to estimate the entire WMU population but is it anymore accurate than harvest reports? somehow I doubt it. Those deer may have all been bedded in the timber and not seen, or they may have all been visible feeding in the fields, what the critters are doing on the particular days they fly has a huge impact on their estimate, they might have seen 5 times the number if they flew it on a different day or even a few hours later or earlier. I see harvest numbers over an entire season as a better population indicator even if it doesn't include any other forms of mortality.

So if we abandon the harvest reports, which is pretty much all we have every year then what? Do we just guess, do we consult a crystal ball. Do we go off anecdotal reports of peoples personal opinions. I think the harvest reports are very important, far from perfect but it is about the only cost effective regular and reflective indicator of current population trends we have. I think it would be a huge mistake to abandon them.

[elkhunter11]

The solution is obvious, require every hunter to participate. Non regulated hunters may not follow seasons or bag limits, but there is no reason that they can't participate in a harvest survey. It would be as simple as them sending in an e-mail for every harvest, specifying the species,sex, and date and location f the kill. This in no way limits their hunting rights in any way. The only reason that I can see for them refusing to participate, is that they don't want anyone to know what they kill, or where they kill it.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

Do you believe most hunters walk out of the bush without placing a tag on harvested game? Why do they tag their animal? Because it is the law and if they are caught not doing it, then they can be charged and their hunting privileges can be revoked. Why not legislate harvest reporting and have similar penalties as poaching for failure to comply. Make it mandatory at the butcher and taxidermy to provide your harvest report ref # when dropping off your animal. And even though first nation do not need to adhered to 95% of the regulation there are still some rules under the wildlife they must adhere to and are enforced such as hunting at night and caliber size and archery minimums.

I agree. I believe harvest reports should be mandatory. At the very least, they should be tied to the draw system; i.e. one cannot enter any draw unless they submitted all their hunting reports in the previous year, unless it is a first year hunter entering the draws or something along those lines. I really do not see any reason for a person to not be able to file a report. If one can buy tags, one should be able to file a report.

However, and this refers to elkhunter's point as well, how are you going to enforce it among those who choose to hunt exercising their right? They don't buy tags, they don't enter draws, they don't follow seasons, etc. Even if the "enforcers" become aware that a particular individual failed to file a report after harvesting an animal while exercising their right to do so, what are they going to do? Revoke their hunting privileges? Not really, because it is not a privilege but a right for those folks. Set a court date? I don't see any of them showing up and rightfully so because there is no punishment that can be exerted. They could not care less about draws and the like that others are obligated to follow. At this point, I think I am back to what I stated previously: nothing will change with native hunting, among other issues, until they are integrated into our society and I have never heard anyone trying to do just that. This is (somewhat) beyond the topic of this discussion though.

And this brings me to the point where I say I fully agree with what Bushrat said, again. To add to his point of accuracy of aerial surveys, here is one that caught my eye when I read a few while writing post 62 in this thread (appears to be on the 17th of August, not that it really maters, lol):



I know it may be hard to read for some, so I will highlight a couple of parts:

Originally Posted by Survey

Wildlife biologists use information on the age and sex structure of an ungulate herd to better inform management decisions. These data yield information on herd productivity and on how well the harvest strategy is meeting the targets for maintaining a healthy herd. Wildlife Management Unit 526 holds populations of mule deer and other ungulates which provide important hunting and wildlife viewing opportunities for Albertans.

...This survey was conducted on Dec 21, 2015 by flying over areas known to contain mule deer in the WMU. A temperature inversion resulted in many prime wintering areas for mule deer to be totally covered by fog, but the crew was able to survey a portion of the upper stretches of the Montagneuse River and along the lower Peace River Valley downstream from Dunvegan. A
crew of 2 observers used a Bell 206 Jet Ranger and flew at approximately 300 feet above ground level at 60 knots/hour classifying the species and sex of mule deer, elk and white-tailed deer encountered. Bucks were classified by antler size as per standard Alberta survey protocol to estimate male age structure.

...

That survey was done in 2015 and WMU 526 has not been flown over for that purpose since. So there you go, something to think about for everyone with regards to hunting reports and aerial surveys.

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

The whole "It is a bad idea or rule because some people won't listen" is a grossly over used argument and a lame excuse for not implementing a good law. And believe it or not, there are many good laws out there.

Not sure if this referred to me or all the naysayers in this thread
I don't think it is a bad idea, which i expressed above, but I do think it is a hard or impossible one to implement, for the reasons I also stated above. I think the solution is elsewhere. I also do believe that there are many good laws' in fact most of them are pretty good, lol. So again, I am not sure if this point actually referred to me. If it did, I should reread everything I wrote previously in this thread.

I will finish my post with a short "story". I went for a walk and to a playground with my daughter (4-year old) the other day. On the way out she asked me "Why do they lock this gate, daddy?", referring to the service gate. Then, not long after that, she asked "Daddy, why are there these big rocks around the picnic area?". If my buddy asked me these questions, my answer would be short and simple and would be something along the lines of "Because people are ******* idiots." But when a 4-year old asks you simple questions like that or "Why do we have to put a coin in a shopping cart?" and the like, the answer is really not as simple to give without her loosing hope in humanity

[elkhunter11]

I will finish my post with a short "story". I went for a walk and to a playground with my daughter (4-year old) the other day. On the way out she asked me "Why do they lock this gate, daddy?", referring to the service gate. Then, not long after that, she asked "Daddy, why are there these big rocks around the picnic area?". If my buddy asked me these questions, my answer would be short and simple and would be something along the lines of "Because people are ******* idiots." But when a 4-year old asks you simple questions like that or "Why do we have to put a coin in a shopping cart?" and the like, the answer is really not as simple to give without her loosing hope in humanity

So how would you explain to your daughter why the gate is locked for some people(regulated hunters), and not locked for other people(unregulated hunters)? Why do some people have to put a coin in the cart(regulated hunters), while other people aren't required to(unregulated hunters)? Does locking the gate , or putting a coin in the cart get the desired results, if it only applies for some people, but not others?

[bearb8er]

Absolutely dead set against hunter surveys being mandatory, period! They have only ended up costing licensed hunters opportunities. I used to hunt moose and mule deer every year with my bow around home. Now the same areas I moose hunted in take 7-8 years to get a draw. 5 for a mulie buck. The animals are stil there ... probably more than there ever was. But some one figured bowhunters killed too many moose and mulie bucks. The kicker is now the landowner where i moose hunted calls in the natives every year or 2 two shoot them cause no one else seems to be able to hunt them.

Do aerial surveys yearly or bi-annually. To be honest it really shouldn't matter what is harvested -by whomever - if the herds can sustain it. If they fly a WMU and they count 200 moose and they fly it the next year or 2 and they count 200(+-5) it does't matter if there were 5 or 50 moose shot...it is sustainable. How many days i was in the field after each tag is simply no ones business. IMHO the ONLY worthwhile data is flying! Save the money spent on all this feel good crap and put it into getting out in the field and doing their job. Wildlife biologist shouldn't need desks.😁

IF surveys are going to be THE tool, everyone...EVERYONE, has to participate for the data to be anything but toilet paper!

[JDK71]

Originally Posted by bearb8er

Absolutely dead set against hunter surveys being mandatory, period! They have only ended up costing licensed hunters opportunities. I used to hunt moose and mule deer every year with my bow around home. Now the same areas I moose hunted in take 7-8 years to get a draw. 5 for a mulie buck. The animals are stil there ... probably more than there ever was. But some one figured bowhunters killed too many moose and mulie bucks. The kicker is now the landowner where i moose hunted calls in the natives every year or 2 two shoot them cause no one else seems to be able to hunt them.

Do aerial surveys yearly or bi-annually. To be honest it really shouldn't matter what is harvested -by whomever - if the herds can sustain it. If they fly a WMU and they count 200 moose and they fly it the next year or 2 and they count 200(+-5) it does't matter if there were 5 or 50 moose shot...it is sustainable. How many days i was in the field after each tag is simply no ones business. IMHO the ONLY worthwhile data is flying! Save the money spent on all this feel good crap and put it into getting out in the field and doing their job. Wildlife biologist shouldn't need desks.��

IF surveys are going to be THE tool, everyone...EVERYONE, has to participate for the data to be anything but toilet paper!

this says it all good stuff everyone or no one