hardcast bullets for marlin 45-70 as bear defense

[wannabe]

I just picked up a really nice new marlin GBL. I think she's a keeper!!
I will be using it primarily as a camp gun/bear defense. I am sure it will never get used but for the chance it does I want a good bullet. From my "internet" research a hard cast, gas checked bullet one way to go.
What weight do you guys use? i'm think 400-450 is ideal. I've heard 500 is great for up close and personal but i'm not 100% sold on the 500s
also what kind of accuracy are you getting? I've heard the best diameter is
.460" for the best accuracy?
I'll be using h4198 powder, rem brass and magnum primers.

[1899b]

405 grain plain based bullet hard cast at 25 BHN from The Bullet Barn at a velocity of 1750 fps is all one needs for excellent penetration.

[Dean2]

Hard cast work just fine on bear but if you want the perfect all round bullet, get the Hornady 350 grain round nose. Years ago me and a partner shot a very large number of damage control bears over a series of years with a whole raft of cartridges and bullets. We tried pretty much everything we owned and quite a number we borrowed from other people we know. We tried 12 gauge slugs, 243, 25-06, 270, 308, 3006, 444, 375 Win, 38-55, 375 Hand H, 7 Rem, 300 Win mag, 338 Mag, 340 Weatherby, 300 Weatherby, 460 Weatherby and that is just the ones that pop to mind of the ones we used.

By far my favourite was the 45-70 loaded with Hornady 350 grain round nose. Excellent penetration, virtually always pass through no matter the angle, great expansion and accuracy under an inch. Nothing else we tried,, had quite the same effect. There were VERY few bears that needed more than one shot from the 45-70. That was not true for many of the others.

Here is a group shot with one of my favorite bear loads. 50 grains of 3031 and the 350 RN is a fairly light load, doing about 1750 fps. It is low enough pressure to use out of the old trap door guns or Modern Marlin levers. Being such a light load it kicks very little and allows you to get back on target with a second shot very fast if you ever need a second one.

Click to enlarge.
45-70resized.jpg

[black45]

400-420 gas checked,cast from lyman #2 alloy is great for what you want.
I do not think a 500 gr. will cycle through a marlin, to long.
imr 4759 powder 26 28 gr. will group 1 in. at 100 yds.
you do not need to use mag. primers.
I use 26 gr. 4759 powder for 1495 fps
just my 2 cents.

[ACKLEY ABE]

DEAN 2: Very similar load to what i use with the 350 Hornady (RN). It was the bullet I settled on when I started with my first 45.70. I'm at 47 gr of Re 7 with Rem brass. Right around 1800 fps and as you say it doesn't beat you up although off the bench you do know you've shot something

I've never bothered with cast bullets. Hornady's are affordable enough that you can buy as many as you are ever going to want to shoot. Why compromise the ability of a fine cartridge with an econo bullet unless you are going for some historical or traditional effect.

For bear defense...my choice would also be a 350 Hornady (RN)....and if you ever see our spring bear camp or our fall camps, you will see a 45-70 somewhere within reach.

I

[Alaska]

In my Marlin Guide Gun And Ruger No 1 have used for years is the

45-70
350 FP gas Check Hard Cast .459
Light Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp Die
Reloader 7 @ 51.8
fed 210 M primer
WW brass
2000 FPS

Shoot thru shoulder blades of moose and bear like a knife thru butter.........
For a jacketed bullet the 350 gr RN Hornady with the same load is accurate and a good hunting load if you prefer jacketed bullets.

[Sheepcrazyguy]

Originally Posted by black45

400-420 gas checked,cast from lyman #2 alloy is great for what you want.
I do not think a 500 gr. will cycle through a marlin, to long.
imr 4759 powder 26 28 gr. will group 1 in. at 100 yds.
you do not need to use mag. primers.
I use 26 gr. 4759 powder for 1495 fps
just my 2 cents.

You are right about the 500 gr not cycling. I've never used a cast bullet in my Marlin always jacketed. So my preference would be for a jacketed. Although I'm sure either would work just fine.

[sinawalli]

Ben Hunchak of MT Chambers in Sask sells all kinds of hard cast rounds for a 45-70. I shoot his 405 grain ones since 2007, no issues at all. about $18 for 50.

[Backwoods Runner]

Pretty well any load in a 45-70 will work great for bear defense. They're not a tank!

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by Sheepcrazyguy

You are right about the 500 gr not cycling. I've never used a cast bullet in my Marlin always jacketed. So my preference would be for a jacketed. Although I'm sure either would work just fine.

I have 540g garrets that cycle great in my marlin

[ACKLEY ABE]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

I have 540g garrets that cycle great in my marlin

...and how deep do they have to be seated and what velocity? Have you entered the realm of diminishing returns? Just curious, I was thinking about trying some in by 45.70 bolt rifle.

[Carbon Caster]

Originally Posted by 1899b

405 grain plain based bullet hard cast at 25 BHN from The Bullet Barn at a velocity of 1750 fps is all one needs for excellent penetration.

This.......

But I prefer their Gas Checks.....

No need to push them to Max Velocity either....Push them as fast as you can handle the recoil to cycle a second round and be on target QUICKLY!!!

[Huntsman]

I picked up a Marlin GG off here for my Bro and it came with three boxes of the HSM cast bear load boolits. The seller told me they'll loosen a molar. He wasn't lying. I'm sure these would do what you need.

[wannabe]

Originally Posted by Huntsman

I picked up a Marlin GG off here for my Bro and it came with three boxes of the HSM cast bear load boolits. The seller told me they'll loosen a molar. He wasn't lying. I'm sure these would do what you need.

Yes, that 430 gr bullet that is used in the hsm ammo would be perfect.
does anyone on this forum make something similar?

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by ACKLEY ABE

...and how deep do they have to be seated and what velocity? Have you entered the realm of diminishing returns? Just curious, I was thinking about trying some in by 45.70 bolt rifle.

These are a factory load the garret hammerhead superhardcasts, they are rated at 1550fps ( 22" bbl ) and are a +P load they reccomend only for post 1998 marlins apparently designed specificly for defense against coastal browns.

My reloads are 405g FN hardcasts over imr 3031 or for plinking I use trailboss.

[Xiph0id]

How does the hornady 325's hold up in comparison when taking about penetration and such.
I've shot a variety of factory ammo and used those to hunt because of their ballistics.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Xiph0id

How does the hornady 325's hold up in comparison when taking about penetration and such.
I've shot a variety of factory ammo and used those to hunt because of their ballistics.

If you are referring to the Hornady 350s, I have only ever recovered one, and that was from a moose shot through both shoulders at about 150 yards. Other than that one bullet, bear or moose, virtually all have been complete pass throughs and I have shot many bears length wise with it. That said, almost all the bears we shot with cast bullets in the 45-70 or 444 were pass throughs too. The cast bullets are a good choice too, as long as you don't drive them with gas checks over 1700 fps and I never found them as accurate as the jacketed bullets.

(With the Hornady a few bears weren't pass throughs and we didn't go digging for the bullet, but in my memory we only ever had one bear go more than 30 yards shot with the 45-70. Most anchored within feet of where they were hit. We had quite a few of them go a lot further than 30 yards shot with smaller caliber high velocity cartridges so for up close and personal the 45-70 is hard to beat, and jacketed or cast, it will do the job.)

[Xiph0id]

Originally Posted by Dean2

If you are referring to the Hornady 350s, I have only ever recovered one, and that was from a moose shot through both shoulders at about 150 yards. Other than that one bullet, bear or moose, virtually all have been complete pass throughs and I have shot many bears length wise with it. That said, almost all the bears we shot with cast bullets in the 45-70 or 444 were pass throughs too. The cast bullets are a good choice too, as long as you don't drive them with gas checks over 1700 fps and I never found them as accurate as the jacketed bullets.

(With the Hornady a few bears weren't pass throughs and we didn't go digging for the bullet, but in my memory we only ever had one bear go more than 30 yards shot with the 45-70. Most anchored within feet of where they were hit. We had quite a few of them go a lot further than 30 yards shot with smaller caliber high velocity cartridges so for up close and personal the 45-70 is hard to beat, and jacketed or cast, it will do the job.)

I was actually referring to the Leverution ammo.
Although I usually plink with the round nose stuff due to its milder loads.

[303carbine]

I shoot the Lyman #2 alloy in a 420 grain hard cast out of my 20 inch barrel 86 Winchester.
I have used the same load in the Marlin GG, they clock in at 1640 fps, nothing walks away from it.
Hard cast bullets out perform jacketed bullets in the 45-70 in all bullet weights.

[303carbine]

These are too long for the Marlin, but they are a breeze in the longer throated Winchester 86, plus the Winchester is a much stronger and nicer looking lever gun too.
Have a look at what Turnbull does with the 1886 Winchester.

[madluk18]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

These are a factory load the garret hammerhead superhardcasts, they are rated at 1550fps ( 22" bbl ) and are a +P load they reccomend only for post 1998 marlins apparently designed specificly for defense against coastal browns.

My reloads are 405g FN hardcasts over imr 3031 or for plinking I use trailboss.

Where did you find garretts in Canada???

[Rio56]

a top end load for sure would be the HSM 430 grain gas check +P bear load ..at 1780 mv it get's your attention ..believe me .. you have chosen a very nice lever 45-70....

[Alaska]

In the 45-70 Marlin

Suggest the 350gr hardcast FNGC with 51.8 of RL 7 in WW cases and Fed 210M primers.

This is a Marlin Load only at 2000FPS in Guide Gun by Marlin

With the 350gr Hardcast this weight is all suggest .........aim at the shoulder blades of any game and you will do well...........a proven bear load.

[purgatory.sv]

As a thread that has been brought forward.

Dense metal has worked.

Control its travel, all will be good.

[Wanderingwest]

I can't talk from experience on what ammo to run, but there is a huge difference in ammo out there.

I broke my SBL in with some Hornady Ftx 325 grain and after shooting a box went to the Remington 405 grain stuff. The Remington had the equivalent punch to a 30/30. My buddy even looked over and said WTF was that.

So far the hardest hitting factory load I have found it the HSM bear load at 430 grain. Fired a few rounds off at the indoor range the other day and my buddy even said that had much more kick to it.

Quite a bit of the store bought 45-70 ammo has to be suitable for the old trap door rifles etc. look for disclaimers on the box that says "for modern rifles only".

And welcome to the guide gun club, I love my SBL.

[ForwardBias]

I've shot bears with the Hornady FTX stuff. Just flattens them. I'd like to shoot an animal with a heavier jacketed bullet. I reserve cast pills for my 357 levers/single actions. Much higher volume of shooting.