RCMP Check Stops Near Whitecourt

wctbowtech · #1 10-05-2007, 09:02 AM

Several people I know got stopped over the course of the last couple of days. Both had unloaded non-restricted firearms in their vehiles. Both where handcuffed and placed in a police crusier for not having a trigger lock on thier firearms. Where do the RCMP get there information in regards to transportation of firearms? I wasn't 100% sure you didn't need to have a trigger guard on your gun so I called the Chief Firearms Officer and he confirmed that you do not need a trigger lock on. I told both guys to call the Staff Sergent and place a complant, but they fear reprocussions. What do you think they should do?

Dick284 · #2 10-05-2007, 09:06 AM

Contact their MP, and get them to rattle the RCMP's cage. the RCMP are breaking the law, this borders on false arrest, and wrongful confinement.
Someone has to file a complaint, and these fellows need to do that, pepole who are un effected carry no weight.
If the effected people do nothing they are allowing their rights to be trampled, and if this sort of jack boot tactics are tollerated from the police WTF is next.
BTW:
I will drop a line to the NFA and CSSA about this.

rugatika · #3 10-05-2007, 09:18 AM

...is going on here?? Are they trying to make owning a gun so scary that no one will want to own them. This is freaking sick!! (sorry for my language). These RCMP in this area are out of control. I got stopped by them several years ago for a seatbelt infraction. They had a false construction scenario set up on Hwy 43 and one of the "construction workers" was actually a cop looking into your vehicle when you slowed down and calling ahead to report on your seatbelt use.

At the top of the hill they had about 10 or 15 cars pulled over with what looked like the whole squad writing up tickets. So far this is all fair enough. What I found disgusting was the way they were gloating about how ingenious their little scenario was and all the tickets they were writing up. This is not the typical RCMP behaviour that I am used to. Usually RCMP are some of the most fair minded and polite officers on the road.

I am firing a letter of to my MP. These guys need to be reined in.

Lisa: "Who will police the police?"
Homer: "I dunno. The coastguard?"

Dick284 · #4 10-05-2007, 09:21 AM

The NFA is on this and I also called the area MP (Merrifield) about this.
I am also going to call Stockwell Day's office and see if the Minister of Public Safety will do anything

Win94 · #5 10-05-2007, 09:21 AM

I keep a copy of the transportation section from the firearms act in my glove compartment and have schooled a couple RCMP officers in the past.

rugatika · #6 10-05-2007, 09:26 AM

This combined with the incident in Dawson Creek does not sound like accidental negligence of the law. This sounds like a concerted effort to harass law abiding citizens who own guns. All officers need to be made aware of the laws and that this behaviour will not be tolerated by RCMP members. Any future events of this nature should result in immediate dismissal from the force.

I do hope that these law abiding individuals pursue civil action against the individual officers and the department head involved.

Thanks for getting on this Dick.

mskrecek · #7 10-05-2007, 09:26 AM

I read about this type of thing type of thing in BC a couple of weeks ago. If you go to the CFC website and look up their brochure and definition of transporting non-restricted firearms is says nothing of the sort of having a trigger lock or other locking device for transporting non-restricted firearms. Restricted and prohibited yes but non-restricted you don't require anything.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets...ransport_e.asp

Print it off and take it down to the station and show them what it indicates and then see what they say. It happened in BC a couple weeks ago and is posted here somewhere. If the firearms where unregistered also print off a copy of the amensty extension and take it down there as well.

3Boys · #8 10-05-2007, 09:34 AM

There was a similiar type of incident this Aug in Dawson Creek. They do have options that they can check out. If they seriously did nothing wrong they have a valid complaint, and should pursue it. By them not coming forward and saying something could lead to more situations like theirs. It would be good to know the whole story. Where any charges laid?

Win94 · #9 10-05-2007, 09:36 AM

I can be in my Jeep, driving down 97st in Edmonton with my Guidegun on my lap with no trigger lock and not in it's case and as long as its unloaded its perfectly legal.

pogo · #10 10-05-2007, 11:20 AM

Presuming that there is truth in the original post in this thread, yesterdays Supreme Court ruling may, and I'm not a lawyer, may be useful for anyone wrongfully arrested for the transportation of non-restricted firearms. Depending on how deep your pockets are, it might be worth a person's while to seek damages or at least be vindicated in some fashion.

Thank-you Dick284 for getting the ball rolling on the matter. Since you have already been in communication with the appropriate political bodies, could you also mention yesterday's ruling to them? Below are two links. One link to the news coverage on the ruling, and the other is yet another link to the regulations pertaining to the transportation of non-restricted firearms. The links are lengthy and my typing accuracy not so good. Let me know if they don't work.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../National/home

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc...chorbo-ga:s_10

The timing of this ruling is very interesting in relation to yesterdays events near Whitecourt. Perhaps somebody wants to test the waters, so to speak.

Cheers!

Dick284 · #11 10-05-2007, 11:26 AM

Link works Pogo:
Perhaps someone else wishes to rattle a few chains. There is strength in numbers.

Expecting someone else to do everything seems to be a great Canadian past time.

pogo · #12 10-05-2007, 11:58 AM

OK Dick.

I will do my part and call my MP. Please, if there is anyone on this forum who is an expert, what part of the law, as it relates to transporting non-restricted firearms, am I not getting? Please feel free to enlighten me...

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc...chorbo-ga:s_10

I understand that there may be agreements between federal and provincial authorities. Are there any agreements between Alberta and the feds? I for one would like to ensure that we always continue the traditions we have historically enjoyed. With history and tradition in mind, please enjoy the link below:

www.hoferwaffen.com

pogo · #13 10-05-2007, 12:04 PM

Maybe when my kid makes the NHL and makes 7.5 million per year like Danny Heatley, he'll buy me a Peter Hofer masterpiece for Father's Day!!

WhiskeyJack · #14 10-05-2007, 12:12 PM

Mounties Get Lesson On Gun Regulations

Northeast News

Dawson Creek, BC
By: Joei Warm
September 5, 2007
http://www.nenews.ca/home/

DAWSON CREEK - Local RCMP have been enforcing firearm regulations incorrectly. Thanks to an incident with a knowledgeable citizen, they learned they have been applying the transportation regulations for ‘restricted’ firearms to even ‘non-restricted’ ones.

They discovered their mistake when they pulled two hunters over for a routine traffic stop Aug. 24 and tried to seize two hunting rifles sitting unloaded between the seats in the truck. Fortunately the passenger, Jim Parfrey, is a federally-certified master firearms instructor. His knowledge of the correct regulations led him to insist RCMP investigate the way they handle these situations. In the end, he got the firearms back with an acknowledgement from police that he was right.

“The law is nebulous,” said S/Sgt. Steve Grant. As soon as the error was recognized the correct information was circulated to all members. But “If it’s that complex that they don’t understand them (the regulations), then how will that help them?” asked Parfrey.

Ironically, the Canadian Firearms website (www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca), which clearly states that the requirement for safe transportation of nonrestricted firearms is “unload your weapon”, was set up and is operated by the RCMP. “They didn’t even seem to know they had a website,” said Parfrey.

“There is no vagueness about the regulations,” said BC Wildlife Federation executive director Paul Adams. “I receive a couple of complaints like this every year. There is a definite need for education within the RCMP, especially with the younger officers.”

“We can both appreciate that officers place themselves in more danger than we do but I’m not sure that two old fogies are that much of a threat,” said Pouce Coupe resident and former Northern Lights College president Jim Kassen, the truck’s driver. The men were told their firearms would be confiscated and that they would be charged with a criminal offense even after it was seen that the rifles were unloaded.

“It was extremely frustrating being ridiculed and ordered around,” said Parfrey. He maintains the officers were angry and treated the men like criminals. “If she had just said she was uncomfortable with the firearms and wanted to put them in her car until the matter was finished with I would have understood and handed them over,” said Parfrey.

“There is a difference in the interpretation of events,” said Grant. “I’m satisfied the officer acted appropriately.”

After the matter was resolved Parfrey said the RCMP shift supervisor, a “very big, well-muscled man”, told him he didn’t like the way his officers had been treated and said if he had been the one to stop them things would have gone worse. Parfrey took exception to what he saw as intimidation by the supervisor.

Kassen thought the officer was threatening and said, “I had the feeling his superior overruled him and that he might be feeling vindictive.” He remains concerned that there may be negative consequences for the duo for standing up for their rights.

Grant doesn’t see the situation in the same light but wants to tell those who feel their rights have been ignored or who feel they’ve been mistreated in some way that they’re welcome to talk to him. “Come in and see me.”

Make a complaint here http://www.cpc-cpp.gc.ca/DefaultSite...x?ArticleID=24

Win94 · #15 10-05-2007, 12:16 PM

Like i said, do as i do. Keep a copy of the firearms act pertaining to transport of non restricted firearms in your glove compartment. It will save you some grief.

Dick284 · #16 10-05-2007, 12:20 PM

Does anyone have the fax # at the Whitecourt Detachment.
I have an FYI to send them.

pogo · #17 10-05-2007, 12:27 PM

hauling out a piece of paper still leaves you subject to somebody's ability to reason. i.e. act now...check facts later. We still need to get the orders to come down from above.

bowchaser · #18 10-05-2007, 12:43 PM

(780) 778-5454 is the phone number...

Tbar · #19 10-05-2007, 12:53 PM

I just called the admin number: Administration and Information
(780) 778-2238 . And asked if they were charging people for not using triggerlocks while transporting rifels. I was then asked if this is illeal. I said...not per the federal legislation...the answer was, then we are not charging people for that because we can't charge people if they are not doing something illegal. Not very helpful, so now I don't know if I should be heading up there tomorrow or avoidingWhitecourt alltogether.

Dick284 · #20 10-05-2007, 01:03 PM

I would'nt avoid Whitcourt at all.
All though it might not seem fun or enjoyable at the time, educating the members of the Whitecourt Detachment is what we need.(All RCMP FWIW)
Know your rights and fight for them.

Tbar · #21 10-05-2007, 01:13 PM

True enough Dick284. But I have to tell you as someone who is very new to hunting and firearms (just started this last year), I have never encountered anything more frustrating. Trying to figure out the legislation for firearms, the drawsystem and tag system, where you can legaly hunt....let alone trying to outsmart the wildlife...and I thought the gov wanted to encourage people to start hunting?

Ok, that's my crying for now...tomorrow I will have the transport rules printed off from the Fed's site with me. And maybe if I'm lucky we'll be making susage this time tomorrow (and not making bail arrangments in Whitecourt).

Dick284 · #22 10-05-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tbar

True enough Dick284. But I have to tell you as someone who is very new to hunting and firearms (just started this last year), I have never encountered anything more frustrating. Trying to figure out the legislation for firearms, the drawsystem and tag system, where you can legaly hunt....let alone trying to outsmart the wildlife...and I thought the gov wanted to encourage people to start hunting?

Ok, that's my crying for now...tomorrow I will have the transport rules printed off from the Fed's site with me. And maybe if I'm lucky we'll be making susage this time tomorrow (and not making bail arrangments in Whitecourt).

Look up Richard Fritze's # in the regs(Gun Fighter) if the el Torro poop hits the fan drop him a line. Remember if it gets tight, STFU and call the Barrister. Usually the Cops bank on you being one of the Sheeple and just roll over. If you stand your ground and look like your prepared to stand your ground and fight for your rights. Dollars to doughnuts the Cops find the regulations from the FA and voila an appology and your scott free.

M70 · #23 10-05-2007, 01:50 PM

Is it for certain that these guys were arrested for the lack of trigger locks or was it for something else? A hunter's emotional reaction to an officer's lack of understanding of the law opens itself up to a whole host of consequences in my mind. Are we getting the whole story here?

The news story from Dawson Creek shows that the Firearms Instructor did the right thing by allowing due process to take its course. We can assume from the story that although he knew what the RCMP was doing was wrong, he didn't stand in the way of the firearms being seized. Yes, it's a pain in the arse to have to go through the hassle of getting the rifles back but in the end it was the RCMP with egg on their face.

If you want to fight the police, do it in court. A case like this wouldn't even make it to court once the Crown realized what had happened. Actually, the paperwork wouldn't get much past the detachment door, IMO.

Suka · #24 10-05-2007, 01:59 PM

First, Thank You guys for persuing this.
It still scares me the thought of that same scenario with a couple 20 yr old's on their way to hunt partrige. It would have played out much, much differently. Let's face it, a couple retired guys vs a couple young fellows; likely they'd have been facing numerous charges, including resisting arrest for having the audacity to question the officers.
Make no mistake guys, this is Very, Very serious.

Ruffgrouse · #25 10-05-2007, 02:14 PM

We sure like jumping on these band wagons. Most of you can't even spell let alone fight a lawful fight under the Firearms Act !
I observed a space ship in the western skies............better call the DND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Were you all on location of this alleged incident ???? I think not.
I would NEVER EVER go running off on a wild goose chase with some information that I got second....... third or fourth hand.
I saw a pink pig flying near the Edmonton airport so I called the airport to have it closed down until this threat to society is disposed of !!!!!!!!
You jump all over the cop when he does something that you don't agree with but you are the first to call them when you need help with your wild kid at home that you can't raise right in the first place. Give me a break.
Did these two that were stopped have any outstanding warrants ?
What was there attitude with the cops on location like?
Go ahead and travel down 97th in Edmonton with the gun on your lap and see what happens. I bet when the semi driver or bus driver looks down into your vehicle and then reports you that you are taken down at gun point some where along the lines. Why do we need to show every one what we do ? Put the bloody gun in a case and under the seat on the way to and from hunting or the range. Why on earth would you ask for extra hassles ? Sure it may be legal but why on earth draw any kind of attention to your self. I have NEVER ran into any kind of trouble and have been checked lots. Keep the mouth shut and don't give the guys something to look for. Common sense I would think ! Hey but keep writing letters, glad to see that the informed public is out there keeping the big bad cops under there thumb. I bet you guys and gals have never done anything wrong. Take a human approach to educate the ones that don’t know the things you know. But go after there jobs…………. Sometimes it is embarrassing to read some of this crap on these sites !

Tbar · #26 10-05-2007, 02:21 PM

That is not very helpful advice Ruffgrouse. As you can see I did phone for more info and they would not give me any (in fact they were really rude...I wasn't at all). I don't want to be antagonizing law enforcement in any way, but I'm not clear now on what is being enforced.

pogo · #27 10-05-2007, 02:21 PM

No more blowing smoke. Find your MP via the link below. In less time than it will take to post a message here, you can be part of the solution by calling your MP. Tell them how you feel. Be corporate and not emotional and you will be heard.

http://webinfo.parl.gc.ca/MembersOfP...ent&Language=E

pogo · #28 10-05-2007, 02:30 PM

I don't want to be a part of any world I'm expected to keep my "mouth shut" in, as you have so eloquently suggested.

Imagine! Having to grovel at someone's feet lest I be treated wrongly.

Shame!

Win94 · #29 10-05-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Go ahead and travel down 97th in Edmonton with the gun on your lap and see what happens. I bet when the semi driver or bus driver looks down into your vehicle and then reports you that you are taken down at gun point some where along the lines.

I used that as an example you fricken whiney baby.

Its unfortunate that the RCMP do not have a clue when it comes to firearms laws.
Like i have said i have shown them the firearms act section of transportation to school them before as i was questioned about no trigger lock and only using a leather scabbard. Perfectly legal.
But then i have also seen some of the RCMP clowns shoot and firearms laws aren't the only thing they are sub par at.

Suka · #30 10-05-2007, 02:32 PM

Already done, quite some time ago.
Ruffgrouse, if I'm incapable of doing my job, I'll be replaced in short order. Same goes for everyone else. You'd do well to study some history. Those who refuse to learn from it are doomed to repeat it.