Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-14-2020, 07:14 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Berger 140 Grain Elite Hunter

I am looking at working up a load for my new 6.5 Creemoor. I have had troubles loading Berger bullets in the past and I was hoping to save some powder and time accessing your experience.

I have some H4350 Powder I will be using and Lapua brass. What I am struggling with is seating depth. Some people say jam Bergers into the lands others say give alot of freebore .30 to .40 thou off the lands. The fellow I bought them from said the new berger elite hunters are not as seating depth sensitive as the old VLD bullets.

What has worked for you?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-14-2020, 07:29 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,446
Default From Berger's website...

Mark, I know you are no rookie when it comes to working up loads, but many struggle when it comes to Bergers. I can't tell you how many guns I have worked up incredibly accurate loads for using the loading method on their website. I cut and pasted it to save you, and maybe others in the same boat some time.
__________________________________________________ ______

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-14-2020, 08:11 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Thank you very much

That is a method I can use to have a load worked up by hunting season.

Its just to bad that the dies I ordered took so long to get here or I would have had this done over a month ago!

Went with the forester Micrometer seater and the neck/should bump. They seem pretty nice so far.

I usually go with the redding custom comp but they are over $400 for something similar.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-14-2020, 08:43 PM
marky_mark marky_mark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
Default

The eol bergers are hybrids
They are definitely less sensitive to seating depth changes
I have had good luck with most bergers 25 thou off the lands
One that is good to try is the 130 ar hybrids
I had great accuracy with my creedmoor and the 147 eldm’s
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-15-2020, 11:14 AM
DaleJ's Avatar
DaleJ DaleJ is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ponoka
Posts: 1,870
Default

Find bullet jam, measure, set back 0.020”. Seems to work with most bullets. Most cup and core bullets.
__________________
Younger horses, faster women, older money, more whiskey!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-17-2020, 10:22 PM
GSPHunter64 GSPHunter64 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 56
Default

I have a Bergara 6.5 Creedmoor and I also use Berger bullets. I was always told that being 0.010 off the lands would be the best, I tried that and Jam and still had no luck. I could shoot .75 MOA but not any better, then I tried the method that sns2 posted that is listed on the Berger website and I got down to half MOA 0.080 off the lands. I saw very little difference at .020 or .040 and was quite surprised myself at how much better it shot at .080. I would definitely give this a try.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:17 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Had a chance to try the 140 Bergers

I am quite frankly amazed at the difference 10 thou difference in seating depth makes

I loaded some up using 1 fired hornady brass with BR2 (large) primer with 40 grains of H4350.

I made some at 20 thousands off the lands and some 30 Thousands off the lands. Huge difference. (measured from the ogive)

The 20thou had less than 1/2 MOA group and the 30 Thou had just under an inch.

The velocity data was very different as well. The tighter group (.020) had an ES of 9 and SD of 4.2

The lager group (0.30) had an ES of 30 and a SD of 11

My speed is a bit slow at 2645 but 40 grains of H4350 is quite a light load. I think i can get it up of 2700 FPS
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Berger EL 140 test 2.jpg (50.7 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg Berger 140 EL Hunter test 1.jpg (46.8 KB, 28 views)

Last edited by markg; 10-27-2020 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:01 PM
sns2's Avatar
sns2 sns2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,446
Default

Your results mirror my experience. Bergers are the most seating depth sensitive bullet I have ever tried, and they have a window they like. Get in that window and they are money. Get out of that window and they are frustrating as all get out. With Bergers, always determine optimal seating depth first. Glad you found the depth it likes. Now you can chase velocity.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:41 PM
marky_mark marky_mark is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,701
Default

Never mind lol

Last edited by marky_mark; 10-27-2020 at 06:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:22 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Did some Hornady 140 ELD-M

Loaded some Hornady 140 ELD-M Bullets to the same spec with the same components and they performed almost identically.

Same velocity a bit higher ES and SD but very similar. They also printed about 1/2 MOA

I have 100 pieces of Lapua brass and I am pretty interested in seeing how it performs as well.

I will be using the 140 ELD-M on that brass. The Hornady stuff is good but I wont mind if I loose a piece or two hunting, Lapua is to expensive to take a chance on loosing a piece or two.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:27 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Sighting it correctly

I think my vertical is pretty good but my bench faces to the south and there was quite a strong chinook wind blowing from the west so thats why everythings is off to the left. Or at least I hope thats what it is. Might need to come right a click or two.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:30 PM
markg markg is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Calgary Area
Posts: 2,377
Default Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by sns2 View Post
Your results mirror my experience. Bergers are the most seating depth sensitive bullet I have ever tried, and they have a window they like. Get in that window and they are money. Get out of that window and they are frustrating as all get out. With Bergers, always determine optimal seating depth first. Glad you found the depth it likes. Now you can chase velocity.
Thanks for the post above that was very helpful.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.