The gun registry is back

[Bellero]

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

Poland just did something stupid as well. No one can hunt unless they are 18 or over, so no kids can hunt with parents. Medical exam and assessment needed on a yearly basis and some other restrictive laws. I think only 300,000 people in Poland have guns legally, for a county that has a population of 38 million...

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

Read Bill C-71 in regards to what I have highlighted, you will now have to call in the RCMP and verify the buyer's PAL is valid and you will have to keep records of your sales to private individuals.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Bellero

Read Bill C-71 in regards to what I have highlighted, you will now have to call in the RCMP and verify the buyer's PAL is valid and you will have to keep records of your sales to private individuals.

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

So what! If criminal elements were able to breach the federal gun registry and access addresses of gun owners, how much easier will it be for them to just break into a store and steal the ledger with all the names and addresses. Easier yet, just pay the store clerk and get a shopping list.

As for private sales, read Bill C-71 in details. This bill affect all gun owners, not just restricted, Swiss Arms and CZ858 owners.

[Bellero]

Firearms Lawyer Ian Runkle's take on C-71

Copied and pasted from his Facebook post:

"Okay, so I have been away most of the day, which means that my commentary on the new firearms bill is a little late. But, here goes.

Minor stuff:
* It incorporates the language used in the Criminal Code for definitions. This is sensible.

* Some grammatical changes, mostly which recognize that businesses/corporations exist.

More important stuff:

* Section 5(2) of the Firearms Act is amended to remove the "within the previous 5 years" that was previously incorporated. So instead of the CFO having to consider what happened in the previous five years, they now have to consider the issue generally. The effect of this is actually fairly minimal, because the courts had said that the CFO/etc are more than entitled to consider things outside the five year range, and the CFO/etc did consider it.

* Section 12 is amended by creating a new blanket grandfathering clause that can be done by regulation. Now, this suggests that the current government may intend to prohibit more firearms in future. However, it also suggests that they may grandfather in existing owners. This is a big warning sign for gun owners going forward, and one I haven't yet seen discussed. These firearms will also be excluded from the automatic ATT provisions. However, the new category of grandfathered firearms are not necessarily barred from being issued an ATT. This creates an uneven patchwork of laws that is exactly the opposite direction our firearms laws should be going.

* They are adding a specific grandfathering clause for the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles for owners who had one before June 30th, 2018. It's not yet June 30th... anyone feeling like giving me a present?

* Automatic ATTs for prohibited firearms are being clawed back, meaning most can't be taken to ranges. Those who have 12(6) firearms (short-barreled handguns) and who have registered as collectors will also not be issued an ATT that allows range trips for those firearms.

* Non-restricted firearms can now only be transferred if you call the CFO and get a reference number for the transfer. This is going to be a serious issue for gun shows, most of which happen on weekends, when the CFO is not open. It'll be a headache generally, because the CFOs office does not keep the hours they claim to keep (I frequently find that if I call in at 1:00 PM I may get the message that tells me that they closed at 4:00 PM and to call again the next day). This will also aggravate the issues associated with the CFO practice of placing a licence "under review", which is not permitted by the legislation, and effectively means that a person with a valid licence is nevertheless barred by CFO fiat from exercising transfers. This is a practice that I have been looking for an opportunity to challenge in court, though. Oh, and violating this is grounds for revocation of your firearms licence... though it'd also be grounds for criminal charges. The net effect of that is mostly something that interests folks like me, because it provides negotiation options.

* Businesses must now keep records of transfers for 20 years, which they provide very little details on confidentiality for. The Liberal Party has been spinning this as though the only way for the police or the CFO to get access to those records is via a warrant, and thus this is not a backdoor registry. This is either a lie or a fairly major oversight, because section 102 of the Firearms Act allows for inspection of a businesses records on fairly broad basis, including copying details. So... yeah. These records will be easily available to the CFO. Additionally, a business going under has to transfer the records to the CFO. So... not quite a registry, but definitely has some substantial monitoring.

* Major omission: Refusals to issue a reference number aren't enunciated in section 74 (referring decisions of a firearms officer to a court to have them reviewed). This means that challenges to this are going to be in a legal limbo. Arguably case law (including Runkle v. Alberta) says that this new creature will be reviewable by the section 74 process, but it would have been nice to clear up this particular disaster.

* It also revokes a ton of ATTs. So, there is going to be one hell of a backlog at the CFO's office the instant this gets proclaimed.

* Restores the prohibition on the CZ 858 and the Swiss Arms rifles.

* Allows the government to retain the long gun registry data.

* Removes the ability of the government to designate something as non-restricted by Order In Council.

Okay, so, some comments:

First, it makes sense that the same principles that allow a firearm to be designated as restricted by law or prohibited by law should allow the government to make it non-restricted. The whole "we need to take these decisions out of the hands of politicians" rhetoric is insane, because of course politicians decide the laws. The LPC just wants to ensure a 'ratchet' effect, where firearms can move to being more restricted, but cannot easily move back to being less restricted. This assumes that the government will never make an error, which is silly.

Second, there are indications in this bill of planned prohibitions to come. The people saying "Oh, they're not banning anything" are wrong, because there are clear plans laid to ban things.

Third, this legislation doesn't fix any of the legislative disaster that is our firearms laws, and generally makes things worse by making it an even more uneven patchwork of conflicting rules. I have no idea how laypeople are expected to navigate this.

Fourth, the business records provisions are not as described--because these records are not excluded from the application of s. 105, the promises that a warrant will be needed to get this information are flatly false. I leave it to the reader to decide if this creates a back door registry. If the goal is to create same, this is probably the worst of all possible worlds, as it will be highly unreliable for determining anything."

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

so what? Here in the US unless you have a conceal carry permit you have to sit and wait at the store while they call NCIC and run all your Form4473 info through them. The only reason you get away with not having to wait with a CCW is that you've already VOLUNTARILY gone through an in depth background check and had your fingerprints put on file.

I don't see anywhere in what you initially posted saying private sales have to keep records. I just see it in reference to businesses.

Private sales are the way to do business.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Although it's a step in that direction, it is not a registry as we knew it.

AFAIK ,You can still buy, sell or trade guns on the used market without any obligation to record the sale, retain records or have PAL's verified prior to delivery. I don't believe the dealers are required to forward copies of any new firearms transactions to any central registry either. It's bad enough, but not as bad as many would have us believe.

It's another step closer....so a criminal steals your government ok to have gun and you know where I am going with this....target the criminals with up to death for thier actions.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

By that definition the USA has had a gun registry for years! All FFL's are required to keep Form 4473s on all firearm sales for no less than 20 years.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...atf-forms-4473

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by fordtruckin

By that definition the USA has had a gun registry for years! All FFL's are required to keep Form 4473s on all firearm sales for no less than 20 years.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...atf-forms-4473

But that is where the various states draw the line etc....here in Canada it has the momentum of a freight train to keep on going to another full out waste of money registration...gun related crime didn't go away it just cost a lot of money to enjoy the shooting sports...we are supposed to learn from our past, especially if it failed...start hitting the criminals with harsh penalties....now that's money well spent, free up some cell space in jail, save on the cost to feed, cloth and house these animals...one rope can stretch a lot of necks.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Bellero

From Bill C-71

3. Business are required to keep records which will include the individual's information and all information regarding the firearm(s) transferred. The business must keep the records for 20 years unless the business ceases to be a business. In that case all records must be surrendered to the authorities. (this is the exact definition of a backdoor gun registry).

This is pretty much the textbook definition of a backdoor registry isn't it.


While you guys are talking about puppies, trailers and turkey hunting, other gun owners like me are being F$%*#$ in the a**. Wait another 10-15 years from now and it will affect you as well. Hunting and guns are pretty restricted in places like Australia and the UK and it's bound to happen here tha way things are going.

So what you are saying is that you are the only firearms owner that this will effect! Well that is a relief.

[Curly Bill]

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by Curly Bill

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

I have over 40 firearms and never had that done, if you buy in the right province, they don't do that.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Bellero

I have over 40 firearms and never had that done, if you buy in the right province, they don't do that.

Just out of curiosity, what Province (s) might that be ?

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Curly Bill

This is really nothing new. Go buy a gun from your local retailer and watch what happens. They take your PAL they flip open an invoice looking book and start writing all the info down. Name, adress, pal number, serial number of firearm etc. Do you think they just throw that stuff away when they’re done with it?

Not all of them. I have bought ammo and guns at Canadian Tire and they just looked at my PAL and that is all. Kind of like getting ID'd at the liquor store.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

So what you are saying is that you are the only firearms owner that this will effect! Well that is a relief.

Certainly not but I was appalled to open this forum after work and see Bill C-71 is barely being discussed on here.

[Pasc43]

You will have to give a serial number as well as PAL. It won't be automated because A) the system won't be instant, you will have to wait for approval of the transaction and then your reference number will be given. B) if its an automatic system there is no way for them to control or deny transactions based on whatever criteria they deem fit.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Smokinyotes]

Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.

When I was thinking out loud and telling people Canada is becoming a Police state, no one believed me. Said I was crazy. Ive been to police state countries and have never met cops driving around with undercover cars, with "For Sale" signs to catch speeders. Never seen cops sit on overpasses or hide cameras in utility boxes. You know who drives around in undercover cars? The KGB, ZOMO and SB.

[Grump]

Originally Posted by gloszz

When I was thinking out loud and telling people Canada is becoming a Police state, no one believed me. Said I was crazy. Ive been to police state countries and have never met cops driving around with undercover cars, with "For Sale" signs to catch speeders. Never seen cops sit on overpasses or hide cameras in utility boxes. You know who drives around in undercover cars? The KGB, ZOMO and SB.

Sorry brother, the KGB doesn't exist anymore.

Or maybe they're just all in uncover cars so we're under that impression

[gloszz]

Originally Posted by Grump

Sorry brother, the KGB doesn't exist anymore.

Or maybe they're just all in uncover cars so we're under that impression

Well the KGB still exists in Belarus ( same name but a few modifications were made). The KGB that you may be thinking of is still in fact very alive. The FSB is the new KGB. Putin is an ex-KGB and he is in charge of Russia. You think he has forgotten his ways? I think not!

[beerhunter]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Welcome to the “new” Canada. When the cops are making the rules and taking private property as they see fit, we now live in a Police state.

As far as buying from friends or people you know doesn’t work, first of all someone you know probably doesn’t have what you want. Second, if the transferor fails to validate the pal of the transferee he has just committed an illegal act and can be held liable under the criminal code.

There will no way to regulate private to private sales/transfers even in the future for non restricted (restricted yes). There is no history on any non restricted firearms as the previous registry was abolished and all records destroyed (supposedly). How will anyone know who owns what anyway?

[jeffhere]

They better kill this bill somehow man.

[Bellero]

Originally Posted by beerhunter

There will no way to regulate private to private sales/transfers even in the future for non restricted (restricted yes). There is no history on any non restricted firearms as the previous registry was abolished and all records destroyed (supposedly). How will anyone know who owns what anyway?

Read Bill C-71, not only they weren't destroyed but this new bill just gave the RCMP the right to retain and use the data from the defunct long gun registry.

[New Hunter Okotoks]

No surprise here. At all. The RCMP have been operating as their own entity and seem to take orders from nobody but themselves. After the High River Gun Grab, how anyone could have any trust in them is beyond me. They never did
destroy the data from the registry which just shows that they never cared what the Taxpayers wanted.

The Liberals stated emphatically that they would not reintroduce a Gun Registry. Liberals lie? Say it ain't so. Well, no one ever accused Liberals of having their priorities in order. Thousands of people dying from drug overdose and they are more worried about imposing more legislation and more laws against law-abiding citizens; even though common sense proves that these measures will do absolutely nothing and have ZERO effect on crime.

[sns2]

All C71 discussion is being localized on this thread...

[ATF]

Not sure if anyone caught Global National yesterday but one of their reporters put a negative spin on the Conservatives for what they called untrue attack ads.

https://globalnews.ca/video/4102197/...ional-mar-22-7

It was the first story but around the 4 minute mark the guy says the conservatives accused the liberals of attempting to introduce a back door registry. Then makes this bold statement that "clearly its not" and its just an attempt by the conservatives to stir up fear by the gun owners.
Goes on further to say that they can now call out ads like that for being untrue.
Maybe it's me but I didn't see it as unbiased and it sure sounded like the guy had a bone to pick with the statement.

[DiabeticKripple]

This is 3/4 of a registry. They will have to build and staff some infrastructure, the same infrastructure that cost 2 billion dollars. There is also nothing in the legislation that stops the provincial CFO’s from overstepping and asking for the firearm serial numbers.

This bill also opens up the floor for the RCMP to prohibit any firearms they wish and put them in the 12(9) class. Bye bye AR15’s if they wanted.

No oversight from elected officials. Can you say police state?

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by ATF

Not sure if anyone caught Global National yesterday but one of their reporters put a negative spin on the Conservatives for what they called untrue attack ads.

https://globalnews.ca/video/4102197/...ional-mar-22-7

It was the first story but around the 4 minute mark the guy says the conservatives accused the liberals of attempting to introduce a back door registry. Then makes this bold statement that "clearly its not" and its just an attempt by the conservatives to stir up fear by the gun owners.
Goes on further to say that they can now call out ads like that for being untrue.
Maybe it's me but I didn't see it as unbiased and it sure sounded like the guy had a bone to pick with the statement.

Well, I think you need to learn to extrapolate.

If this isn't a watered down registry what is?

They make no bones about the requirement to call in a transfer, so what is the point of that?

If nothing is registered, what is the value of calling in the transfer of an unregistered firearm?