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Old 08-20-2017, 06:43 PM
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Sitting Bull Sitting Bull is offline
 
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Default Need Help With Reloading please

Is it normal to be adjusting the bullet seating die almost every round that I try to seat the bullet in order to get my chosen OAL?
I am loading 30-06 brass with Hornady 180gr interlock SP and using Lee dies.
Example : If I am trying to get 3.230 OAL , the first one might be right on then the next one could be 3.240 or .247 or 2.52 our even less like 3.190 etc...
So I have been adjusting every one in order to get to as close as possible to my chosen OAL.
Am I doing this all wrong?
Is the die defective ?
Thanks for the help.
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:48 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Yes you are doing it wrong. You are adjusting the die to compensate for differences in bullet tip dimensions, which is actually changing the jump to the lands, from round to round. Instead of making your ammunition more consistent, you are actually making it less consistent. Set the die so on average you are close to the COL that you are after, then leave the seating die alone.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 08-20-2017 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:02 PM
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Thank you sir, so I will pull the bullets and start over again.
Always a learning process
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:05 PM
gitrdun gitrdun is offline
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It sounds to me as you are measuring "overall length" meaning from the head of the case to the bullet tip. If this is the case, keep in mind that the soft point can easily be 0.010" (ten thousands) longer or shorter. If this is the case, then you actually don't have an issue as the 10 thou differential that you are measuring is typical for soft point bullets. For a more accurate measurement, you ought to be measuring from the ogive, using an insert that fits onto your calipers jaw (a comparator). As such, I measure my 30-06 bullets to be 3.660 to 3.700". Measuring from the ogive with such a tool is much more accurate than measuring from the tip of the soft point bullet.

If you are using a turret press, keep in mind that there is "play" or "clearance" between the bottom of the turret plate and the top of the press. This is to allow ease of rotation from one station to the next. Totally normal. This clearance depending on the manufacturer of the press can be as high as 0.020".

Based upon the minimal information that you've provided, it seems to me as though you are measuring Overall Lenght, base to tip. In which case, I see your discrepancy as normal.

I must apologize for being so freaking long winded. Just trying to explain it properly and lead you in the right direction.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:10 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Why not shoot a few groups with what you have ĺoaded, to see how they shoot, before you start pulling bullets? The slight variance may not make any noticeable difference.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
Thank you sir, so I will pull the bullets and start over again.
Always a learning process
Don't pull the bullets all the way out. You're off by only a few thou. Pull them a bit, like a 1/16" inch (60 thou) and re-seat them.
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  #7  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
It sounds to me as you are measuring "overall length" meaning from the head of the case to the bullet tip. If this is the case, keep in mind that the soft point can easily be 0.010" (ten thousands) longer or shorter. If this is the case, then you actually don't have an issue as the 10 thou differential that you are measuring is typical for soft point bullets. For a more accurate measurement, you ought to be measuring from the ogive, using an insert that fits onto your calipers jaw (a comparator). As such, I measure my 30-06 bullets to be 3.660 to 3.700". Measuring from the ogive with such a tool is much more accurate than measuring from the tip of the soft point bullet.

If you are using a turret press, keep in mind that there is "play" or "clearance" between the bottom of the turret plate and the top of the press. This is to allow ease of rotation from one station to the next. Totally normal. This clearance depending on the manufacturer of the press can be as high as 0.020".

Based upon the minimal information that you've provided, it seems to me as though you are measuring Overall Lenght, base to tip. In which case, I see your discrepancy as normal.

I must apologize for being so freaking long winded. Just trying to explain it properly and lead you in the right direction.
This is exactly what I am doing measuring tip to base.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:14 PM
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Default Very good explanation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
It sounds to me as you are measuring "overall length" meaning from the head of the case to the bullet tip. If this is the case, keep in mind that the soft point can easily be 0.010" (ten thousands) longer or shorter. If this is the case, then you actually don't have an issue as the 10 thou differential that you are measuring is typical for soft point bullets. For a more accurate measurement, you ought to be measuring from the ogive, using an insert that fits onto your calipers jaw (a comparator). As such, I measure my 30-06 bullets to be 3.660 to 3.700". Measuring from the ogive with such a tool is much more accurate than measuring from the tip of the soft point bullet.

If you are using a turret press, keep in mind that there is "play" or "clearance" between the bottom of the turret plate and the top of the press. This is to allow ease of rotation from one station to the next. Totally normal. This clearance depending on the manufacturer of the press can be as high as 0.020".

Based upon the minimal information that you've provided, it seems to me as though you are measuring Overall Lenght, base to tip. In which case, I see your discrepancy as normal.

I must apologize for being so freaking long winded. Just trying to explain it properly and lead you in the right direction.
X2.
Measuring from the ogive is best with every bullet.
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  #9  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
This is exactly what I am doing measuring tip to base.
Right, then when you've found the average of what you want, as elkhunter stated, leave your seating die alone. If you're loading hunting ammo, you'll do just fine. If hunting precision stuff, we need to talk.....LOL. Good luck.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:29 PM
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Sorry if I am not explaining myself properly, but it makes sense in my head.
I'll try again.
I used a magic marker on the bullet and inserted empty and un primed case in order to find were the bullet touched the lands. I seated the bullet until no more marks would show on the bullet. Measured from tip of bullet to base and got a measurement of 2.245. I loaded up 3 of each starting at 3.210 in increments of 5000.up to the desired length. So as I measured if one round measured in at 3.210 I put in its proper row. The next one came in at 3.220 I put that one in its proper row in the bullet case. Then the next one would be 3.210 again so I put it in the row with the other one. The next one measured in at 3.245 so I put it in its proper slot. and on and on I went.
So if soft points give such varied lengths, how will they ever be seated properly?
If I don't have all the fancy tools for measuring the ogive, am I better off to seat to the cannelure and then crimp?
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:31 PM
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By the way I am a slow typer, so you guys will have posted before I get a chance to finish typing one reply
I am using just a single stage press if that makes a difference.
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  #12  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:34 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
Sorry if I am not explaining myself properly, but it makes sense in my head.
I'll try again.
I used a magic marker on the bullet and inserted empty and un primed case in order to find were the bullet touched the lands. I seated the bullet until no more marks would show on the bullet. Measured from tip of bullet to base and got a measurement of 2.245. I loaded up 3 of each starting at 3.210 in increments of 5000.up to the desired length. So as I measured if one round measured in at 3.210 I put in its proper row. The next one came in at 3.220 I put that one in its proper row in the bullet case. Then the next one would be 3.210 again so I put it in the row with the other one. The next one measured in at 3.245 so I put it in its proper slot. and on and on I went.
So if soft points give such varied lengths, how will they ever be seated properly?
If I don't have all the fancy tools for measuring the ogive, am I better off to seat to the cannelure and then crimp?
Just set the die so the average COL is what you are after, and leave the die alone.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:35 PM
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you don't have to crimp the bullet!
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:38 PM
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Thanks guys,
I'll take average, set the die and won't touch it.
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  #15  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:38 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbrass View Post
you don't have to crimp the bullet!
Not unless you are loading them in a tubular magazine, and you would not be loading that particular bullet in a tubular magazine.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:41 PM
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Sitting Bull brought up a good point in his dilemma. I don't mean to deter from the topic nor derail his post. But I feel as though I should say this based upon the trials that I've done specifically concerning loading "precision ammunition". And trust me, I'm always in the search of precision ammo.

This could be yet another long winded drivel from yours truly, but bare with me if interested, if not you can always move on to "general discussion". Here goes.

In search of that one load that pleases one with tiny groups, we first strive to find the right powder, using the specific bullet type and weight of our choice, Next comes the right amount of powder and weight to please us with the results. Those are the BASICS. Then we come to "jump to lands". Will a 0.030" jump to lands work better than a "0.010" jump to lands? Or maybe depending on bullet construction, a seat to lands or bury in the lands 5 thou?

I've played with all of those variables. And sure enough, they do provide results specifically when rolling your own precision ammo. But the most important two factors that I've noticed are as such:

NECK TENSION: is a big one for me.

CONCENTRICITY: of the bullet being rightly lined up with the rifle bore.
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Old 08-20-2017, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Not unless you are loading them in a tubular magazine, and you would not be loading that particular bullet in a tubular magazine.
correct!
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  #18  
Old 08-20-2017, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
Thanks guys,
I'll take average, set the die and won't touch it.
Cool, that is exactly what you should do. And don't crimp. Otherwise you ought to be good to go.
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:15 PM
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Do most neck size or full length size for hunting ammo in the same rifle?. There sure is a lot of different opinions on this.
I also noticed tonight that some of my bullets slipped with little effort into the neck and some were nice and tight. My brass has been neck sized.I did not use the ones that were to loose.
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:21 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
Do most neck size or full length size for hunting ammo in the same rifle?. There sure is a lot of different opinions on this.
I also noticed tonight that some of my bullets slipped with little effort into the neck and some were nice and tight. My brass has been neck sized.I did not use the ones that were to loose.
If you don't have enough neck tension, you can polish the expander ball/button down with emery cloth. Don't reduce the OD by more than .001" at a time.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:08 PM
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Neck sizing is what you need after they have been shot in your particular rifle. They have been fire formed to fit your chamber after they have been shot once. For me I have been FL sizing because I have been shooting 2 243's and 2 308's. trying to keep the brass separate for me is a big PITA. But I will be trying to do this more.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:09 PM
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No matter what, go pickup one of these, they save a lot of headaches like the one you are having. Shud be available at any of the places that sell reloading stuff.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/pr...let-comparator
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbrass View Post
you don't have to crimp the bullet!
You can crimp any bullet. Sometimes it improves accuracy especially if you don't aneal the necks. If I still had a big kicker I would not ruleout crimping. But for the most part I don't do it but I do with a couple rifles.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sitting Bull View Post
Is it normal to be adjusting the bullet seating die almost every round that I try to seat the bullet in order to get my chosen OAL?
I am loading 30-06 brass with Hornady 180gr interlock SP and using Lee dies.
snip
While I agree with those suggesting that you use a 'comparator' to measure CBTO (Cartridge Base To Ogive), there is another factor that may be important (or not).

Lee makes 2 quite different bullet seaters.

Older and cheaper 2 die sets often contain the typical RCBS original design combination seater / crimp die. The crimp function is adjusted by changing the die location in the press.
Many advise against seating and crimping in a single operation, and suggest seating first, then readjusting the die to crimp in a 2nd procedure.

Many of the newer Lee 3 & 4 die sets come with a 'Dead Length Seater' which has no crimp function, and is adjusted so that the die makes solid contact with the top of the shell holder.
If the press is a 'cam over center' type, the Lee DL die should be adjusted so that the die stops the ram well before it would reach the top of the stroke and go 'over center'.
If the press ram has a linkage or ram stop, and does not 'cam over center', then the die should be adjusted for full shell holder contact before the ram or linkage travel stop.
Many Lee die sets with the DL seater will also have a separate 'Collet Crimp' die.

IMHO,
the DL seater is a significant improvement that can produce more consistent CBTO length, than a traditional combination seater / crimp die.
The Collet Crimp die is a very good design, that does not require consistent case length to produce consistent crimps, and is less prone to case neck or shoulder bulging or distortion when crimping.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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  #25  
Old 08-20-2017, 10:01 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 32-40win View Post
No matter what, go pickup one of these, they save a lot of headaches like the one you are having. Shud be available at any of the places that sell reloading stuff.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/pr...let-comparator
Sinclair also makes tooling of a similar design, that shares insert holder body size. Hornady and Sinclair inserts can be used in both bodies.

Sinclair makes a standard Hornady length body and a longer XL body to measure shoulder to base length over a seated bullet.

Unless you need a full set of caliber inserts, I suggest purchasing only the ogive and shoulder inserts as needed.

Sinclair shoulder inserts are fully machined to match case shoulder angle,
Hornady inserts have a square edge in standard SAAMI datum diameters.
Both have similar ogive inserts, but the dimensions are different, and the best one to use depends on ogive shape.
A Sinclair insert can often slide right down a VLD ogive and rest on the case neck.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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