3006 load development

[Duramaximos]

Hello all,

I've hit a wall in my recent load development of a Rem 700 3006.

I know the rifle has good potential. 3/4" groups with factory Fusion 165 gr ammo.
I can't seem to break 1.25" groups with the following ingredients:
H4350
165 gr Accubond, 150 gr TTSX, 178 gr ELDX.
Fireformed and FL sized FC brass - minimal shoulder bump.
CCI 200 Lg rifle.
Rifle is pillar bedded otherwise it is stock.

Tried a dozen different powder charges in 0.3 gr increments.
56.9 gr pushing 165 gr AB gives the best group at 1.25". Surprising considering the ELDX easily out shoots the AB in my experience.

Seating depth doesn't seem to affect too much however the throat is very long so I have lot of room to play with, so I may not have found the sweet spot.

I have a good supply of H4350 and no other suitable powders on hand. I'd like to make this work.

The rifle runs a little hot. The barrel warms up quickly after about 3x3 rounds and the accuracy drops off slightly.

Rifle will be used on steel out to 800 and hunting 400 yards max.
My goal is 0.5" groups but I will settle on 0.75.

Suggestions?

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[marky_mark]

Seating depth is a important factor for load development
I’d watch some YouTube videos to figure out how to find the lands and then do a berger seating depth test.
Wouldn’t hurt to figure out your twist rate and check the Berger website for their stability calculator. Should help determine what bullets should theoretically shoot best

[Duramaximos]

Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the following text on Berger's site.
Definitely more methodical than what I have been doing.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).


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[prarie_boy1]

H4350 is a good powder for a .30-06 I use it in mine regularly. Could be a lot of factors influencing this so it may be a matter of trial and error trying to control one variable at a time. All the Barnes bullets I have shot were seated .050 off the lands and deeper in order to get the best accuracy possible.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

Thanks for the suggestion.
I found the following text on Berger's site.
Definitely more methodical than what I have been doing.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).


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That is meant for the VLD, it isn't what I would use for the eldx or the Accubond. I would start them at .010", and increase the jump in .005" increments. Do not try the TTSX at .010" off of the lands, the monometal bullets produce pressure spikes when loaded that close to the lands. Start the TTSX at .050" off of the lands and increase in .010" increments.
As for the Federal cases, I find them to be one of the worst, the primer pockets expand easily, and the necks harden and the neck tension varies greatly, unless you anneal after every firing.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That is meant for the VLD, it isn't what I would use for the eldx or the Accubond. I would start them at .010", and increase the jump in .005" increments. Do not try the TTSX at .010" off of the lands, the monometal bullets produce pressure spikes when loaded that close to the lands. Start the TTSX at .050" off of the lands and increase in .010" increments.
As for the Federal cases, I find them to be one of the worst, the primer pockets expand easily, and the necks harden and the neck tension varies greatly, unless you anneal after every firing.

The Berger seating depth test works for all bullets

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The Berger seating depth test works for all bullets

Yet I have found the most accurate searing depth to be .005" in some rifles, and actually seated on the lands with others, and .015" to .020" with others. And after using the monometal bullets in many rifles, I certainly wouldn't start at .010" off of the lands, Barnes even recommends starting at .050", and I have never seen the best results closer than .040" off of the lands. I do know people that tried seating them close to the lands, and the pressure spiked.

[marky_mark]

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/...InQZfA8kD-_eMc

People are starting to think that Roy Weatherby was on to something. And that jumping bullets a long ways has a wider node and is much more forgiving

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/...InQZfA8kD-_eMc

People are starting to think that Roy Weatherby was on to something. And that jumping bullets a long ways has a wider node and is much more forgiving

Then again, the testing was done with one bullet.

From that link

The statistician was careful to add, “Extrapolations to other tests, bullet type and environmental conditions must be made with caution by the subject matter expert.” That means we shouldn’t assume these results for the 105 Hybrid represent how other bullets might behave, which is an important point.

[fps plus]

Try a different bullet .

Some rifles will never shoot a certain bullet as accurate as one would hope .

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by fps plus

Try a different bullet .

Some rifles will never shoot a certain bullet as accurate as one would hope .

Exactly, some people try too hard to make a rifle shoot a certain bullet/powder combination, when it simply doesn't like that combination.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Then again, the testing was done with one bullet.

From that link

There’s more information

https://precisionrifleblog.com/2020/...elopment-data/

While there are slightly different patterns between each of the bullets, it does appear none of the bullets showed to have a forgiving bullet jump under about 0.040”. The most consistent vertical POI over a wide range of bullet jumps usually appeared to be closer to 0.060”. Jumps that have been traditionally seen as absurdly long, like 0.080” or more, actually seem to produce less vertical shift in POI as the barrel wears than when the bullet is seated very close to the lands.

Of course, if you tightly manage your seating depth and adjust it regularly (e.g. every 100-200 rounds), then you can still get extremely precise groups seated close to the lands. That is a really important point. None of this research is trying to say you can’t get tiny groups jumping 0.020” or less, or even seated into the lands. Those minimal jumps could produce smaller groups than if you were jumping 0.060” or more, although that isn’t necessarily a hard and fast rule either. What this research seems to show is that when you are seated close to the lands, your load may not be as forgiving in terms of changes to the bullet jump as your barrel wears and you could experience a vertical shift in your zero if you don’t regularly adjust your seating depth.


The Berger test helps to find a wider and more tolerant seating depth node

And the data from this article shows that not just Monometal bullets show pressure spikes when seated close to the lands.

[Pathfinder76]

I have been jumping bullets a country mile (on purpose) for years with excellent success. Competitive guys who test know this. But they single feed cartridges, like to keep bullets out of powder columns and ahead of donuts etc. They get the same results in the lands. What is one difference between the OP’s factory load and hand loads that is obvious? Seating depth.

Don’t load up a pile of them to try. Seat 3-5 70 thou off the lands and try them. You may be surprised.

[duceman]

if you had good groups with factory ammo, i don't think the search for seating depth to .0001" is your problem.
seat to book length and give it a go with a top end for your rifle charge.

[marky_mark]

If the op doesn’t have a comparator
That would be a wise and cheap investment

[360hunt]

Try different brass.
I have a rifle that with a simple brass change went from 1.5" groups to .5"
All other components didn't change.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

Hello all,

I've hit a wall in my recent load development of a Rem 700 3006.

I know the rifle has good potential. 3/4" groups with factory Fusion 165 gr ammo.
I can't seem to break 1.25" groups with the following ingredients:
H4350
165 gr Accubond, 150 gr TTSX, 178 gr ELDX.
Fireformed and FL sized FC brass - minimal shoulder bump.
CCI 200 Lg rifle.
Rifle is pillar bedded otherwise it is stock.

Tried a dozen different powder charges in 0.3 gr increments.
56.9 gr pushing 165 gr AB gives the best group at 1.25". Surprising considering the ELDX easily out shoots the AB in my experience.

Seating depth doesn't seem to affect too much however the throat is very long so I have lot of room to play with, so I may not have found the sweet spot.

I have a good supply of H4350 and no other suitable powders on hand. I'd like to make this work.

The rifle runs a little hot. The barrel warms up quickly after about 3x3 rounds and the accuracy drops off slightly.

Rifle will be used on steel out to 800 and hunting 400 yards max.
My goal is 0.5" groups but I will settle on 0.75.

Suggestions?

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

Coincidently, my son's Rem 700 06 shoots factory Fusion 165s into a clover leaf as well. I prefer more expansion on deer but they kill stuff.

Anyway, at the range after shooting two nice groups and with a cool barrel, he says he wants to try an expensive box of Hornady Precision Hunter 178 ELDX he had picked up. They shot like a crazy crescent pattern starting low and stringing up to the left.

I tried them in my Sako. The first two were in the same hole and the third was nearly touching, just like SST, GMX, Interlocks and anything else Hornady chooses to stuff in a cartridge.

My Sako shoots Fusion so poorly it would be unethical to hunt with them.

Nothing to do with 800 or even 400 yard shooting but some rifles just don't like some bullets good enough for 100.

[midgetwaiter]

Try weighing the eld-x, I bought a couple boxes of 178s that were a bad lot. It was driving me crazy until I figured out they ranged in weight between 173gr and 189gr. Less than half were actually 178gr.

Federal does sell the Fusion bullets, maybe try to track some down.

[brewster29]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

Hello all,

I've hit a wall in my recent load development of a Rem 700 3006.

I know the rifle has good potential. 3/4" groups with factory Fusion 165 gr ammo.
I can't seem to break 1.25" groups with the following ingredients:
H4350
165 gr Accubond, 150 gr TTSX, 178 gr ELDX.
Fireformed and FL sized FC brass - minimal shoulder bump.
CCI 200 Lg rifle.
Rifle is pillar bedded otherwise it is stock.

Tried a dozen different powder charges in 0.3 gr increments.
56.9 gr pushing 165 gr AB gives the best group at 1.25". Surprising considering the ELDX easily out shoots the AB in my experience.

Seating depth doesn't seem to affect too much however the throat is very long so I have lot of room to play with, so I may not have found the sweet spot.

I have a good supply of H4350 and no other suitable powders on hand. I'd like to make this work.

The rifle runs a little hot. The barrel warms up quickly after about 3x3 rounds and the accuracy drops off slightly.

Rifle will be used on steel out to 800 and hunting 400 yards max.
My goal is 0.5" groups but I will settle on 0.75.

Suggestions?

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

Yup. First thing I would try is any brass other than Federal. IMHO it’s the worst.

Then try a different primer, or a magnum primer. Your other components should work fine.

I am shooting 165 TTSX, IMR 4350 (enough for 2880 fps), RP brass, CCI 200 primers, coal 3.25” into bug holes from my T3. Jump to lands is 0.120”.

[Arty]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

[...]
Rifle is pillar bedded otherwise it is stock.

[...]

Rifle will be used on steel out to 800 and hunting 400 yards max.
My goal is 0.5" groups but I will settle on 0.75.

Suggestions?

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk

Those are some awfully big numbers to expect precision at, from a stock ordinary rifle. IMHO you'll be chasing around POI all day long with seating depths, powders, primers etc, instead of looking at the other factors in the precision equation.

Every one of my rifles now has a fat after-market barrel chambered & mounted by a reputable smith either in BC or AB, or mounted by myself using go/no-go gauges made by PTG. Lots of other refinements too. Only at that point will the effects of metered seating depth, throat tightness, powder type and volume, etc become a bit clearer. Sure, you'll see some variation especially with whippy barrels, but it will be difficult to pin down whether and how much the variations are due to the cartridge or the gear or the way you're shooting.

There was always a big reloading discussion at shooting matches about what worked best and why. But that was with rifles that were already extensively tuned up. One of the biggest deals about reloading variations was to get a point in the rifle barrel that had little or no vibration right at the muzzle, which would otherwise randomly kick a bullet off one way or another. Browning came out with a BOSS system that supposedly altered the dynamics of the barrel to do that instead of working up loads. But with a heavy barrel with good bore, crown and chamber and a heavy rifle and good installation that whole problem gets reduced to begin with.

[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by Arty

Those are some awfully big numbers to expect precision at, from a stock ordinary rifle. IMHO you'll be chasing around POI all day long with seating depths, powders, primers etc, instead of looking at the other factors in the precision equation.



Every one of my rifles now has a fat after-market barrel chambered & mounted by a reputable smith either in BC or AB, or mounted by myself using go/no-go gauges made by PTG. Lots of other refinements too. Only at that point will the effects of metered seating depth, throat tightness, powder type and volume, etc become a bit clearer. Sure, you'll see some variation especially with whippy barrels, but it will be difficult to pin down whether and how much the variations are due to the cartridge or the gear or the way you're shooting.



There was always a big reloading discussion at shooting matches about what worked best and why. But that was with rifles that were already extensively tuned up. One of the biggest deals about reloading variations was to get a point in the rifle barrel that had little or no vibration right at the muzzle, which would otherwise randomly kick a bullet off one way or another. Browning came out with a BOSS system that supposedly altered the dynamics of the barrel to do that instead of working up loads. But with a heavy barrel with good bore, crown and chamber and a heavy rifle and good installation that whole problem gets reduced to begin with.

To be clear my goal is 0.5 MOA at 100 yards.
I hear you loud and clear regarding realistic expectations at long range. My accuracy falls off at distance, and I'm ok with that.

I have been able to create 0.5 MOA loads with similar factory setups so I don't think this is an unrealistic goal, and since the rifle showed pretty good potential with the factory ammo, I figure with some fine tuning I could eek out a little more!

Some other things I'm thinking about...
My hand loads have noticeably more recoil than the Fusions. Not enough to cause a flinch but definitely more muzzle jump when I watch my form in video.
The monte carlo stock isn't helping. Considering changing it out to a straight comb synthetic to help reduce the muzzle jump.

Neck tension could be an issue. I'm using Hornady dies and they have worked well for me in the past. I can feel some bullets go in easier than others. Lapua brass is on my short list of things to try next.




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[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by duceman

if you had good groups with factory ammo, i don't think the search for seating depth to .0001" is your problem.

seat to book length and give it a go with a top end for your rifle charge.

Tried that, but I wasn't methodical about it.

Second last range day started out with 30 rounds of various seating depths between 10 and 30 thou off the lands. These cartridges were about 160 thou longer than the book COAL. I have plenty of room in the mag box, so no problem there. The barrel has a longer throat compared to other rifles I've owned.

Last range day I loaded up 30 rounds varying from book COAL length to 20 thou over book length....my notes are not in front of me so I can't quote the exact COAL that I tried.
Groups size didnt change at all between the two days. Admittedly there is a big gap in COAL between the two lots. At first glance the Berger method is at least more methodical that I have been.

I'm leaning towards buying some Lapua brass and trying the Berger method using the 178 ELDX. Lapua brass is never a bad investment in my mind.


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[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by chuck

I have been jumping bullets a country mile (on purpose) for years with excellent success. Competitive guys who test know this. But they single feed cartridges, like to keep bullets out of powder columns and ahead of donuts etc. They get the same results in the lands. What is one difference between the OP’s factory load and hand loads that is obvious? Seating depth.



Don’t load up a pile of them to try. Seat 3-5 70 thou off the lands and try them. You may be surprised.

This is in the range that I didnt explore too much. Thanks for your input.

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[marky_mark]

The easier than others when your seating the bullet part is probably due to work hardened brass

Another good tool to get is a good chronograph
Accuracy doesn’t typically just fall off
But Bullets that travel at different velocities just induce more vertical dispersion
Velocity consistency is just as critical as group size

[BigJon]

Did anyone mention concentricity of loaded rounds? You may be pulling necks out of round or seating crooked with your handloads as well.

I also read that article that Mark posted a while back and it makes sense. Factory Remington .308 Win barrels have some serious jump from max COAL to the lands and have always shot incredibly well for me. Have also tried what the article suggests scenars, ballistic tips, etc to good effect.

[Dick284]

Has the OP checked for oil on the rifles bedding surfaces?

[catnthehat]

I would look at just how many groups were shot with the factory Fusion ammo and go from there, maybe check the ogive length of that ammo and use the same for your hand loads if you ran 4 groups of five shots to get those groups.
I have loaded a lot of TSX and TTSX bullets in rifles and run them very deep, I start at the top of the first driving band in fact.

HOWEVER, in all this we must remember that there are several factors about shooting groups.
the reality is that a rifle that shoots 1.5 inches at 100 yards consistently will break a clay bird quite regularly at 500 meters off the bench.

At 800 meters 1.5 MOA is around 12 roughly, so unless a person is trying to shoot a 1/2 MOA steel plate the rifle will ring that 12" gong pretty steady and even then it will do it, and at 400 meters a 1.5 MOA 3006 will kill all day long .
A rifle that will shoot 1.5" will and has won all the marbles at the biggest silhouette shoots at Raton New Mexico , and those are pretty small targets to shoot at offhand!
Sometimes we get so wrapped up in equipment and load development we forget about the biggest variable which is the nut behind the bolt!
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Has the OP checked for oil on the rifles bedding surfaces?

I had a friend bring me a rifle that was shooting 3/4" groups, with the load I developed with him, that was now shooting 2" groups after his moose hunt. When I asked some questions, he mentioned getting caught in the rain, and spraying the gun down with G-96 to prevent rust. When I removed the barreled action, there were pools of G-96 in the voids in the stock. Once the stock and action were cleaned the previous accuracy was restored.
I have rifles that shoot very well with .010" jump to the lands, and some that shoot well with .100" jump, some haven't been tried with a smaller jump, because the magazine capacity won't allow it. I really don't care what the actual number is, if the load shoots accurately in the rifle.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The easier than others when your seating the bullet part is probably due to work hardened brass

Another good tool to get is a good chronograph
Accuracy doesn’t typically just fall off
But Bullets that travel at different velocities just induce more vertical dispersion
Velocity consistency is just as critical as group size

Agree with the suggestion for a chronograph.

Could be that the loads are just off the accuracy node, too. Could be exiting the barrel when the amplitude of barrel vibration is at its highest, but it's hard to replicate a velocity by guessing and trial and error.

Something I started doing is buying a factory box of ammo, and then chronographing it; which gives me a real world velocity of what I can expect with hand loads. It will also give you an indication of whether your gun shoots fast or slow, when compared to the advertised velocity. Which sometimes can be exaggerated slightly, or a bit skewed by a fast test barrel, that is typically a couple inches longer (or a few?) than typical hunting rifles.

[gunluvr]

[QUOTE=brewster29;4437610]Yup. First thing I would try is any brass other than Federal. IMHO it’s the worst.

Have you sorted your brass by weight? A friend gave me a bunch of Federal brass to reload for his 270. It may have come from more than one lot but out of 35 pieces the lightest is 192.6 gr. and the heaviest is 200.3 gr.
To me that's a huge difference, and would likely lead to a significant velocity inconsistency between loads of the same powder charge.
When developing a load, I like to keep all brass within 2 or 3 grains at most.