Elk Farms and the misinformation that seems to have aroused around them.

[Issac Bell]

Now on pervious threads there has been acquisitions that elk farms are a danger to wild crevid populations. I’m still failing to see how an elk farm is a threat to the wild population, they are in a pen, as for diseases I’ve already listed the stringent testing we have to do in order to maintain our clean herd status but since this is a new thread i will restate them in order to be an elk producer in Alberta you are required to test your her and every five years for Tuberculosis and brucellosis and all heads must be turned in for mandatory CWD testing. In order to export animals to the states you are required to test annually for TB and Brucellosis then the animals you intend to ship must be blood tested, a sample is taken by the vet, sent to Washington state university where it is analysed. The TB and brucellosis test is sent to Lethbridge and when we get both results back they are forward them to CFIA once they give us approval we sent the information to which ever state you are exporting too. There is also a 30 day time line from when the blood sample is taken, if the animals are not across the border by day 30 the export permit is invalid. We are unable to live test for CWD at the current time, research is in progress though. The funding for this research is being provided by the elk farmers, tax payers do provide a very small amount of funding but all that means is elk farmers pay twice. As for the first official case of CWD , the first official case was found in an animal research facility in Colorado. When i attended the CWD conference on Jan 11, 2003 in Leduc, they had several scientist/biologist as speakers now they admitted that the first reported case was in Colorado (1960) at the research facility. They also informed us that the purpose of the research was studying scrapie's which is a TSE (transmissible spongiform encephalopathy). Scrapies has been around for ages in sheep populations, Wikipedia claims since the 18th century (1732), the first confirmed case in Canada was in 1938, the disease was acknowledged as a reportable disease in 1945 see link for details.

http://www.scrapiecanada.ca/whatis.html

Now if we take into consideration the mind frame of that era, this is right after WW2 and chemical science is the new big thing, everything can be solved with the right chemical and with this new threat to the sheep populations of North America it made sense to try and find a cure. Here is where the research facility in Colorado comes in, I have been unable to find the information packages we were given to confirm this but as far as I know they (the scientists) were hoping if they could isolate what neurochemicals caused the deterioration of prions, in the quest for this information they experimented with transferring the disease to other species hoping to find clue. Birth of CWD, now how it spread to the wild is a completely different topic filled with accusations and conspiracies, all animals present in these trials were destroyed that much i do know. Somehow this new strain escaped into the wild population, how far it traveled is unknown and is impossible to determine. From there the first REPORTED case came in 1996 on a farm, now as hallsy said in a previous thread it sounds more likely the wild population infected the farm herd because even at that early stage in the industry there was still regulations involving transportation of animals, but before the first confirmed case, there was no reason to test any of the wild population. As for CWD in farmed elk, “one case of CWD in a farmed elk was detected in Alberta in the spring of 2002, and two farmed white-tailed deer were confirmed positive for the disease in November 2002. Both herds and trace out animals were depopulated.” I pulled this off.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex3594

As far as I’m concerned all the claims that the Alberta Elk farms are disease ridden biological hazards is just some uneducated and very misinformed individuals way of attacking crevid farms.

[KegRiver]

So you run a clean operation. Good for you.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks who are in it only for the money and could care less about keeping their herd clean and well contained.

Sure they "claim" to run a clean operation. It's called misinformation by those in the industry, those of us on the outside call it outright lies.
See I'm not some 9 to 5 factory worker. I was born and raised on a farm, and have worked on and around farms all my life.
I see what goes on, I have friends and relatives that are into none traditional livestock. I have seen first hand how easy it is to keep captive wildlife separated from free roaming wildlife.
On a small scale it is possible, such as in a zoo. But on a farm, next to impossible. Some will succeed, many will fail. So you might be one of the success stories, or a liar. Only you know which one you are. I sure don't.

But I have no doubt, for each success story there will be at least one failure we will never hear about.

Yup, you Elk farmers have it all together. Ask any wild boar owner and he will tell the same story about raising Wild Hogs.

So how bout you tell everyone where all those free roaming wild hogs came from.

Yeah I know, they are a whole different matter. And indeed they are. There are no native wild hogs for them to infect.

CWD anyone?

[Speckle55]

just to keep eveyone informed 90 percent of ranchers are good 10% are bad so like anything else 10% can reck it for others and the prions stay in soil as active for 12 to 16 years,so soil is the conductor and it, they think is ingested from the grazing of animals.. if a animal in your double fence ****es/**** ground and then runs along back and forth back and forth and hoofs dig in and flip out dirt through fence and deer on outside comes by and eats grass as it looks at your elk.. and it happens to be that farm that was infected.. just a little CSI.. now if you have time go to WWW.CWD-info.org and read , watch video.. then read study on baiting of animals U of Sask.. its in wild Deer elk moose in USA and Deer Elk in Sask .. Deer in Alberta .. and Farmed ELK from ALBERTA were sent to KOREA .. now they have a CWD problem please be informed .. informed people make informed decisions

[Pudelpointer]

So Isaac, I have to ask:

What do you think of selling elk bulls to hunt farms in the US or Sask? What do think of the AB gov's plan to move the responsibility for monitoring what you do with cervids from SRD to Agriculture?

Maybe you could also answer some other questions for us:

Is your farm profitable if you only sell antler, velvet, and meat?

How much of your profits come from the sale of live animals?

Do you sell "breeding bulls" to "farmers" in Sask or elsewhere?

Do you report and test EVERY animal that dies on your farm (or do some quietly get buried/burned)?

If CWD is transmissable from animal to animal, do you think that game farms - sorry, Cervid farms should be required to have a double fence (minimum 15 feet apart) to prevent wild/captive animals from contact?

If the prions are viable in the soil for at least 15 years or so (which research appears to suggest) should Cervid farmers be required to put up a bond with the government that maintains a fence to keep wild animals out for AT LEAST 15 years after the operation ceases to have captive cervids?

Should cervid farmers be required to put up a bond (or be held financially liable) for dealing with escaped animals?

Should cervid farmers be required to put up a bond (or be held financially liable) for any cost associated with finding CWD on their land/animals?

Maybe if you or the Cervid farmers group could provide some clear, acceptable answers to these questions, then there might not be so much "misinformation".

[Grizzly Adams]

Sorry, I don't care how rosie things are, in your world. I have a philosophical problem with putting animals, that we regard as wild, behind fences. I get doubly upset, when I see elk farmers selling velvet as Snake oil. These things have no legitimate reason for existing, as far as I'm concerned. Didn't hurt my feelings any, when the bottom fell out of the market and most of the people, in the business, lost their shorts. Just another Pyramid scheme, that collapsed on itself.

Grizz

[huntfishtrap]

x2 Grizz!!

I believe the Water Buffalo pyramid scheme failed as well in B.C. and due to disease as well. I'd rather get my Mozzerella elsewhere.

However it does seem Mel Knight is on a mission to push through his proposed Legislation. I'm glad it is an election year, at least my MLA returns calls now.

[elkhunter11]

I’m still failing to see how an elk farm is a threat to the wild population, they are in a pen,

And animals do escape from pens.

as for diseases I’ve already listed the stringent testing we have to do in order to maintain our clean herd status but since this is a new thread i will restate them in order to be an elk producer in Alberta you are required to test your her and every five years for Tuberculosis and brucellosis and all heads must be turned in for mandatory CWD testing.

With a five year window for testing, a disease could be in a herd, and be spread for years before it is detected. As for turning in heads, what about the animals that are sold live?

We are unable to live test for CWD at the current time, research is in progress though.

That research doesn't help keep our wild elk population safe from CWD that originates in ranched elk now.

tax payers do provide a very small amount of funding but all that means is elk farmers pay twice.

Why should the tax payers pay anything for testing that benefits the rancher, not the taxpayer?

[Issac Bell]

Pudelpointer- Thank you for the excellent questions. I'm kind of uncomfortable sharing the actual financial numbers though but I'll answer your questions as best i can.

Is elk farming for velvet, meat and antler profitable?
This is a rather difficult question to answer due to the fact that it depends completely on the market value of the products. Antler and velvet are actually the same thing unless your talking about selling sheds which is not very profitable it's just an easy way to get rid of any sheds. The market for elk velvet is primarily in Asia where it is used as health product, due to the high iron and calcium content when processed. Right now velvet is doing ok, it's not a highly lucrative business, but if you have elk it's worth doing now that the market is picking up again. Right now the main driving force is the meat market because there is a shortage of elk meat available low supply=high demand=higher prices. But Elk farming by it's self is not a big money maker. If you want to farm and make money i suggest grain farming or canola.

How do i feel about the exportation of animals to Saskatchewan and the states, and how do i feel about the proposed legislation changes?

After the velvet market crashed and the meat market never really got fully established the only way to profit from elk was to export the to hunt farms. Some people like Mr. Gizzly Adams seem to feel that the market crashing was a good thing, well we (elk farmers) had to find a way to profit from our elk and now all they can do is complain about how we chose to do that. So I'm in full support of the exportation of elk. Now the change in legislation does make it possible for hunt farms to open in Alberta but more importantly it makes it easier to apply for export permits which is the part I am one hundred percent in favor of.

Do i sell breeding bulls? Yes and no i do not raise Bulls specifically for the purpose of breeding but neither do i raise them specifically for the purpose of meat or hunt farms, I just raise bulls and sell them what the purchaser does with them is up to them.

Do i test every animal that dies? Yes I do, you can not simply bury/burn an animal to hide it because all the elk that you own have to be kept in a very organized system so that if your farm were to be inspected you would be able to show where every elk you have ever owned has come from or was shipped to. This was put into place to protect herds from CWD, this way if a farm does become infected after a new animal is brought in you can track where it came from same if an animal is shipped and you find out your herd is infected. It's easier just to take the head in if an animal dies than it would be to deal with the consequences of not turning one in.

As for the last three questions, A 15 foot barrier is a great concept in theory but with the low percentage (0.0023%) of animals effected it seems like a lot of overkill to me. Now the fifteen year reclamation of land is also a great idea that should be implemented if your farm is found to be contaminated. Should farmers have to put up bonds for CWD being found on they're land? I don't think so because CWD is spread much easier through wildlife where there is no way to control or track the spread of disease. Elk escaping is a very hard concept to imagine because they are contained within 8ft+ page wire fencing, and they are smart enough to know where they get fed so they would not wander very far from their herd. There is also regulations in place that any farmed elk seen outside a pen is considered feral, technically your supposed to wait 48hrs before shooting it but if it's outside the pen how are supposed to time it so just shoot it. Now that being said if you go around letting animals out of pens and shooting them you will suffer some huge penalties.

[Issac Bell]

Elkhunter11-

Do I really need to go over the improbability of elk getting out of pens?

Five years is a long time but that is what the government decided the the regulation should be and the elk industry hast had any problems with sudden out breaks of Tuberculosis or brucellosis which is what the tests are for and if the elk producers intend to export anywhere they have to test annually.

Tax payers pay a small percentage because a percentage of the industry is government run, thats how you get the regulations 1+1=2.

Kegriver- You can try and compare the wild hogs to elk but there was no where near the same regulations regarding to the pen designs. Now elk farming has been around in Alberta since at least 1996 which is when we got into it, since then I have heard of exactly 0 cases of elk escaping from captivity.

[Issac Bell]

On another thread some one was claiming that Alberta farm elk are a cross between Wapiti (rocky mountain elk) and red stag. This is false especially the claims that if there was such a cross it could reproduce. The government of Alberta implement a blood test program where they took blood samples from all of our farmed elk, an elk farm is only considered pure if all the elk have 100% Wapiti DNA. If there is any red stags in Alberta LEAGALLY they have had vasectomies, because it is illegal to have a red stag capable of reproducing in Alberta. The only place in Canada that can raise red stag is in PEI.

[wwbirds]

With all the questions and contraversy on this topic I am thankful that someone in the industry has tried to shed some light on the matter in an informed manner. I am also embarrassed that some have inferred the responder is either a responsible operator or a liar.
If you want an answer to your question please ask, if you have all the answers please tell us, but if you don't like the answer given please keep your opinion on the validity of the answer to yourself. This is called respect.

[greylynx]

[QUOTE=Issac Bell;870477]Pudelpointer- Thank you for the excellent questions. I'm kind of uncomfortable sharing the actual financial numbers though but I'll answer your questions as best i can.

Unfortunatley I make a living analyzing numbers.

When I find that one is uncomfortable with actual financial numbers I want to start seeing the numbers and how they were calculated.

[elkamaholic]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

Elkhunter11-

Do I really need to go over the improbability of elk getting out of pens?

... since then I have heard of exactly 0 cases of elk escaping from captivity.

Do I really have to dig out my old photos of the farmed elk I spotted one morning along the trunk road near the Simonette River? Ear-tags and all were visible and they were almost a mile outside the fence... F&W were called at the time to report the sighting and I voiced my concerns. Not sure what the outcome was, not sure if that fellow still has elk or not anymore but that's all besides the point.

All it takes is one!

[sheepguide]

A couple elk farms in the Caroline area have had Elk out on numerouse occasions.
A few were shot to recover them near the Caroline landfill and one bull my wife almost shot as she had a cow tag and the bull had its horns cut off. We didnt shoot once we saw the tags and horn bases. We werent sure the legalities of it. We called a local game warden and he said please shoot it if you see it again. But we never did.

The one herd was suposedly released because the rancher went bust but that is just a rumor. But the farm ended at the same time.

Any ways any one that states that elk dont get out or cant are totaly full of it!

SG

[Grizzly Adams]

Now the change in legislation does make it possible for hunt farms to open in Alberta but more importantly it makes it easier to apply for export permits which is the part I am one hundred percent in favor of.

Not if I and a lot of other people have their say about it.

THIS is the future;

http://helenair.com/news/article_727...cc4c002e0.html

Grizz

[Speckle55]

So Issac so if i follow what u have said... how did the farmed elk and whitetail farms get CWD.. in Alberta ? then How did the Farmed Elk from Alberta sent to Korea get CWD in Korea? Have there been people cross feeding chicken/pig feed and to farmed elk etc ? thought i read cases.. Didn,t we have to pay for a clean up of elk farm where found?and cost of that was? and some tags were never accounted for or was that a misprint cause there was no retraction? thanks for answer my questions

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

Elkhunter11-

Do I really need to go over the improbability of elk getting out of pens?

Five years is a long time but that is what the government decided the the regulation should be and the elk industry hast had any problems with sudden out breaks of Tuberculosis or brucellosis which is what the tests are for and if the elk producers intend to export anywhere they have to test annually.

Tax payers pay a small percentage because a percentage of the industry is government run, thats how you get the regulations 1+1=2.

Kegriver- You can try and compare the wild hogs to elk but there was no where near the same regulations regarding to the pen designs. Now elk farming has been around in Alberta since at least 1996 which is when we got into it, since then I have heard of exactly 0 cases of elk escaping from captivity.

Are you serious? you don't think any captive elk have escaped from pens? Have a chat with Mr. Greg Gilbertson (F&W Officer) in Whitecourt he will have a different story to tell you. I know personally several captive Elk escaped from a farm in that area and F&W was trying to find them via Helicopter.....they did not get all of the escapees. The farm they escaped from had ties to a local MLA up there....hence perhaps the reason not many people know about it. I will leave at that......

Lefty

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

Kegriver- You can try and compare the wild hogs to elk but there was no where near the same regulations regarding to the pen designs. Now elk farming has been around in Alberta since at least 1996 which is when we got into it, since then I have heard of exactly 0 cases of elk escaping from captivity.

Typical argument. Now where have I heard that before?
Oh yeah, those were the same arguments the Wild Hog farmers made, including two friends and three other locals.
Some argument the Nuclear industry makes. Sure there there are different regulations and different levels of regulation.
What is the same is that those regulations only delay the inevitable.

Maybe you are simple enough to believe that hogwash. I'm not.
As I said, I have hands on experience with caged wild animals. Game farms. I have family and friends who raise exotic animals, Bison, Wild Hogs, Ostrich, Lama. And I know a couple of Elk Ranchers.

Yeah I know about the regulations. Fat lot of good they will do when one bad apple slips through the screen.

Have you ever heard of anyone lying. It happens you know.
All it takes is one dishonest operator who figures out how to avoid detection for long enough to release a hundred or so ranched Elk infected with TB or some such disease and then see where your regulations got "US"

See that's the point. If you or one of your colleagues fail then all Wild Life and ALL of the rest of US pay the price.

we (elk farmers) had to find a way to profit from our elk

I could care less about YOUR profit margin. YOU took a risk on a HIGH RISK enterprise. YOU and YOU alone should pay the price if YOU fail.

That is exactly the sort of attitude that will lead to the release of captive Elk into the wild population.

[dgl1948]

I live close to Moose Mountain Park in Sask. There are a good number of elk farms in this area as well as a good population of wild elk.

One of the problems I see is when the rut is on the wild and fenced elk do come in contact with one another. Could this spread CWD?

The other problem with this is when the wild elk come to the fenced elk they are shot. There is a simple solution to this and that would be to double fence but I do not think you would get the game ranchers to do this. The other is not to allow elk farming where you have wild elk.

Another problem here is that the fences do not keep all the elk in. Almost every farm around here has had some escape. Not only do elk get out but one day a couple of winters ago we were passing by on of the farms and a cow moose crossed the road in front of us and stopped at the elk fence. She took a look at it and jumped. Her front half made it over the elk fence and the back half stayed out. She started to struggle and inside the fence she fell. We called the local CO and went to the farmer. When the CO arrived they went into the pasture that the moose was in and could not find her. Apparantly she was able to get out on her own as well. So much for elk fences.

One of the worst things to happen here is that when the velvet market went down the tubes, game ranchers were left with no way to market them. There are still a couple of farms here that are not breeding females because they cannot get rid of the animals. A couple of farms just had all of thier elk just "escape". I took pictures of one of these herds bedded just outside the gate of one of the pastures. As it was winter all one had to do was open the gate and put a bale there and I am sure that these animals would have been captured. The farmer is to report escaped animals within 48 hours. I contacted the CO about these animals and it had never been done. There are now at least two herds of "escaped" animals that are now running with the wild elk in Moose Mountain. Did some of these "escaped" animals have CWD. They had animals that came from farms in the Lloydminister area.

The other problem is the old pass the buck for checking these farms. It gets passed back and forth here. Some things are left up to SERM and some to the Dept of Ag. Who checks the farms and records and are they ever checked?

It does not matter how many rules or regulations you put in place, not everyone is going to follow them. If they did would we have CWD in our elk and deer herds now??

[nube]

Originally Posted by elkamaholic

Do I really have to dig out my old photos of the farmed elk I spotted one morning along the trunk road near the Simonette River? Ear-tags and all were visible and they were almost a mile outside the fence... F&W were called at the time to report the sighting and I voiced my concerns. Not sure what the outcome was, not sure if that fellow still has elk or not anymore but that's all besides the point.

All it takes is one!

I have a taged elk eating my hay bales out by Tofield that is an escaped elk.

I have also seen a herd of taged elk that were just outside of Blackfald a couple miles from hwy 2 on the west side.

Seems to me there are a lot of escaped elk around. Years ago the farmers couldn't afford to feed them and they were worth nothing and I remember reading about elk farmers realeasing them into the wild and the fish cops were killing them.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I find it interesting that Mr. Isaac Bell has not heard of a single Elk escapee in as many years as he has been involved but yet he can recite countless sources and references to support his cause.

In a short time on this forum there have been countless AO members support with facts that Elk have escaped from several farms, in several areas, in several provinces.

This notion that farmed Elk do not interact with wild elk is so funny my sides almost burst. Take a drive down HWY2 and check just past the Millet turn-off (heading south). On the east side of the road is an elk farm, quite commonly south of that farm there are 5-6 WILD elk roaming/feeding. I have personally seen the wild ones and the captive ones nose to nose on the fenceline. If this isn't contact then what is?

In fact that farmer got permission to shoot a WILD bull on his fenceline because it was interferring with his "operations". So he gets to shoot an elk on his fenceline (when no season exists in that particular area) because his elk farm drew in a small group of wild elk. Yes I am suggesting that if those domestic elk were not there, the wild ones would not also be there.

Also a friend of the family used to have elk. He was constantly fixing fences cause his bulls wanted out and the wild bulls wanted in....another point of contact.

So while Mr. Isaac will post links to sites supporting his cause he fails to see some of the other facts which he is disputing (ie. no captive elk escape, elk in fences do not have contact with wild elk). So maybe he isn't that well informed afterall? or he has his selective way of researching/thinking and does not look into the flip side.

Lefty

[North of Owlseye]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I could care less about YOUR profit margin. YOU took a risk on a HIGH RISK enterprise. YOU and YOU alone should pay the price if YOU fail.

That is exactly the sort of attitude that will lead to the release of captive Elk into the wild population.

This is the part that stinks to me. Yet another exotic pyramid scheme (anybody rmemeber bore goats?) that went belly up. The guys in on the ground floor at Alder Flats got the ear of someone in government (some relation to a minister if I remember that one right) and boom we have elk in a cage. As happened many times before the bottom dropped out and the only ones tyhat made the big bucks were the guys in at the start - that is why itis called a pyramid scheme.
Lots of guys lost there shirt and had to shoot or let there critter lose - you bet your arse that happened. Now after years of trying the ones that still have a big stake in it get the ear of goverment again and get this law rammed throu. And this guy has the balls to come on here and say they 'had to find a way to make a profit'. Yeah change the rules of the game so your bad business decision turns a profit. As said best by Keg.
Caged native critter is WRONG. Shooting a critter that is tame and can't run away in a fair chase is WRONG. Putting more danger to our wild animals is WRONG. BUsinesses that fail should go bankrupt, but lets change the rules so even the kids on the worst team in the tournament get a trophy - WRONG. A tiny few with some kind of connection to government can get the rules changed because they have to find a way to make a profit - SO WRONG. Sneaking legislation thru fast and quitely, shifting game animal rules to a different department - WRONG.
Jeeeze Im getting worked up here - I need to go have a beer and calm down.

[Issac Bell]

Thank you, wwbirds for the excellent post , I’m glad to hear some people can still be respectful, whether they agree or not.

Greylynx- Farming is farming sometimes you win some time you lose, and no I’m not going to share my financial numbers with you. Now i hate making assumptions but since you make your living analyzing numbers, I’m going to assume that you have never owned/work on a farm. Analyzing on is all fine and grand but unless you've work on a farm, please keep your numbered opinions to yourself. I would hope that some people understand my somewhat old fashioned belief that my income is my business not anyone else’s.

Now for all the people who have claimed that elk escaped, most of you claim to have seen herds, which sound more like they were let out not that they escaped. I can only speak for the elk farmers in my area that i actually know, now we have never had an animal escape, someone mentioned the farmer let the elk out and now he doesn't have elk any more. That sounds like the farmer got caught in a pinch when the market crashed so he opened his gates and cut his losses. THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN, now before anybody even thinks about attacking me and saying it did happen, there are always bad apples in every industry, you cannot judge an entire industry by only the bad individuals.

The other thing about individual tagged elk in the wild, SRD (fish and wildlife) tags wild elk for tracking purposes. As for asking a fish and wildlife officer for their opinion it could very well be just as biased as most people on this forum that have no real understanding of the industry and open their mouths just because they think it's wrong.

Speckle55- if you had actually read my entire post and/or paid attention, I mentioned that I think it's much more likely that the wild deer infected the ones on the farms, now there has been exactly three cases of CWD in Alberta; one in elk, which was an elk cow that came up out of Colorado it was brought up pre-infected, both the herd it was shipped to and where it came from were cleansed. The other two cases where in a captive white tail deer population in November 2002, where the deer came from I do not have that information, I do know the infected herd(s) were destroyed. That information was also in my original post thanks for reading.

Lefty-Canuk since I apparently fail to see anything I’m hoping you actually have some facts yourself to bring up or some information to provide. Otherwise I'm simply going to assume you are simply attacking just for the sake of attacking because I fail to see any actual facts in your posts other than wild elk will approach a pen of farmed elk during the rut, now most elk farmers do not allow elk hunting on their property because some people have a hard time seeing a fence at 100+ yards.

The most exciting news of the day is the legislation past this morning, so Mr. Grizzly Adams I thought you might like to hear that.

[elkhunter11]

Now for all the people who have claimed that elk escaped, most of you claim to have seen herds, which sound more like they were let out not that they escaped.

Does it really matter how they got into the wild population?The point is that they are in the wild population, and they are free to spread any disease that they might have had. Had elk ranching not been allowed, this would not have happened.

THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN,

WELL IT DID HAPPEN.

there are always bad apples in every industry, you cannot judge an entire industry by only the bad individuals.

So how many diseased animals interacting with the wild population does it take to spread disease?

Once more for those people that still don't comprehend this, if elk ranching was not allowed, there wouldn't be domesticated elk escaping or being releaased into the wild population.

[kirbstomps]

[QUOTE=greylynx;870657]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

When I find that one is uncomfortable with actual financial numbers I want to start seeing the numbers and how they were calculated.

i would'nt hand out my financials on a forum either....... just sayin.

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by Issac Bell

The most exciting news of the day is the legislation past this morning, so Mr. Grizzly Adams I thought you might like to hear that.

According to this, you're wrong.

http://www.assembly.ab.ca/net/index....s_statusreport

[Speckle55]

Issac the point i was making that if Farmed Elk were not brought to Alberta and Sask and Korea.. then we would not have it in our wild ungulates now and would not have until it had come up from states(years from now maybe) and Sask is the big offender here with poor control of Farmed elk(clean up of infected lands).. in studys it is a fact that u have higher than normal disease problems(thats why gov test) etc and like i said and yourself there is those 10 % that will do what ever they want and f the laws.. is that fair to say?

[Issac Bell]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Does it really matter how they got into the wild population?The point is that they are in the wild population, and they are free to spread any disease that they might have had. Had elk ranching not been allowed, this would not have happened.



WELL IT DID HAPPEN.

DO YOU REALIZE HOW IMMATURE THAT STATEMENT MAKES YOU SOUND???

So how many diseased animals interacting with the wild population does it take to spread disease?

Now considering that there have only been three reported cases of CWD in Alberta and all the farmed animals involved were destroyed. I don't see how the captive population can be running around infecting the wild population.

Once more for those people that still don't comprehend this, if elk ranching was not allowed, there wouldn't be domesticated elk escaping or being releaased into the wild population.

Fair enough because then there would be no domestic elk, but there is so get over it. You can whine that without cars there would be no global warming, now can anyone tell me that this is a logical argument but it is the same one elkhunter11 is trying to make. Another thing that would have NOT HAPPED WITH OUT ELK FARMS is there would be no test for CWD because without the funding of elk farmers. If you can't test for it, it doesn't exist right???

[Issac Bell]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Issac the point i was making that if Farmed Elk were not brought to Alberta and Sask and Korea.. then we would not have it in our wild ungulates now and would not have until it had come up from states(years from now maybe) and Sask is the big offender here with poor control of Farmed elk(clean up of infected lands).. in studys it is a fact that u have higher than normal disease problems(thats why gov test) etc and like i said and yourself there is those 10 % that will do what ever they want and f the laws.. is that fair to say?

The point I’m trying to make is how do we know that it was brought up with farmed elk from the States? WE DON'T, WE ONLY KNOW THAT IT IS HEAR NOW SO THERE IS NOT MUCH WE CAN DO ABOUT IT, IF WE ABOLISH THE ELK INDUSTRY IN ALBERTA WHO IS GOING TO SUPPLY THE FUNDING? I'm not debating what happened in Saskatchewan because I don't know what their regulations and mandates are because I don't farm in Saskatchewan or anywhere near the Saskatchewan border. I also can’t explain how CWD got to Korea; I’m not even going to try because it is 100% speculation. There will always be that ten percent that disregard rules and that’s not the topic we are debating, I'm just as mad or madder at the ten percent than anyone else on here because they are responsible for all/most of the negativity towards the industry.

[Issac Bell]

[QUOTE=kirbstomps;871329]

Originally Posted by greylynx

i would'nt hand out my financials on a forum either....... just sayin.

Thank You i'm glad some one understands.