Farm tractors hard starting in this cold

[liar]

Originally Posted by amosfella

So, in the last week, I've made a few adjustments to the tractor to get it starting better in the cold.

First off, I cleaned all the battery connections including the one to the starter and ground on the frame. All of them had a bit of corrosion. Sprayed them with dielectric grease to hopefully slow down corrosion. Tractor is starting better now.

Second, hydraulic oil was replaced with Cat 0W20 multigrade hydraulic oil. Stuff runs like water at room temps. It's pretty fluid at -30. The 30 weight stuff we were using before was like molasses in the cold. Hard on the pump, hoses, and seals. Also changed the filters.

Third, a recirculating block heater was purchased (but not installed yet). That's likely this week. Still have to read a bit more about that.

This is on top of changing the engine oil to a 0W40 oil.

While I technically have access to a heated shop, it's so full of dad's half finished projects that one can hardly walk in there. And if he didn't insist hat he was going to finish every one of those projects, a lot of them would have been cut up, what was usable saved, and the rest going to the scrap yard. Unfortunately, I'm not in charge....

since parking inside is out , you've done all the right things . hopefully we dont get the weather to test it all . remember , the circulating heater has to be low so that the heated coolant rises and " circulates "

[amosfella]

I think that we're in for at least one more shot at the cold, and I'd rather have it as ready as I can vs standing outside in the cold.

I'd like to hardwire a trickle charger onto the tractor yet. The batteries are off to the side and fully exposed to the cold. They've got blankets on them. Just that and 5W40 engine oil made a world of difference last winter. Dad had previously insisted on using 15W40 oil in that tractor. I spent a lot of days warming that tractor up with a tiger torch and warming the bottle so that the bottle didn't freeze to get it going.

Last winter, I did that twice. This winter I did it twice, so far, but in my defense on one of those occasions, the block heater burned out, and on the other, there was water in the fuel.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

It might be hard starting in the cold, but how does it sound?

I don't have that kind of a rattle.... Yet.....

Them mean ones....

[EZM]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

It might be hard starting in the cold, but how does it sound?

That would have made for a nice looking cane in this weather........just don't bring it inside

[Gifted Intuitive]

We wintered around 200 head each winter with two tractors running each day and a third we would run when needed.One tractor was permanently connected to a grinder-mixer and one farmhand spent each day grinding straw and grain.
The two tractors that were used each day were never shut off. They ran 24 hrs each day. In the fall we would install a new fan belt and sometimes a new water pump. We would add gasoline to the transmission and rear-end to dilute the oil. The tractors that ran continuously had the best maintenance records.
This was before the use of large round bales.

[sourdough doug]

[QUOTE=Gifted Intuitive;4100723]. We would add gasoline to the transmission and rear-end to dilute the oil.
Golly there GI, that sounds damn scary... However, is there something else that one could use....maybe kerosene.....and pls don't say...use lighter oil

[reddeerguy2015]

Originally Posted by gifted intuitive

we wintered around 200 head each winter with two tractors running each day and a third we would run when needed.one tractor was permanently connected to a grinder-mixer and one farmhand spent each day grinding straw and grain.
The two tractors that were used each day were never shut off. They ran 24 hrs each day. In the fall we would install a new fan belt and sometimes a new water pump. We would add gasoline to the transmission and rear-end to dilute the oil. The tractors that ran continuously had the best maintenance records.
This was before the use of large round bales.

😲😬

[blgoodbrand1]

[QUOTE=sourdough doug;4100757]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

. We would add gasoline to the transmission and rear-end to dilute the oil.

Golly there GI, that sounds damn scary... However, is there something else that one could use....maybe kerosene.....and pls don't say...use lighter oil

Gasoline in your oil adds 10 hp points. 12 if you use premium.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by amosfella

So, in the last week, I've made a few adjustments to the tractor to get it starting better in the cold.

First off, I cleaned all the battery connections including the one to the starter and ground on the frame. All of them had a bit of corrosion. Sprayed them with dielectric grease to hopefully slow down corrosion. Tractor is starting better now.

Second, hydraulic oil was replaced with Cat 0W20 multigrade hydraulic oil. Stuff runs like water at room temps. It's pretty fluid at -30. The 30 weight stuff we were using before was like molasses in the cold. Hard on the pump, hoses, and seals. Also changed the filters.

Third, a recirculating block heater was purchased (but not installed yet). That's likely this week. Still have to read a bit more about that.

This is on top of changing the engine oil to a 0W40 oil.

While I technically have access to a heated shop, it's so full of dad's half finished projects that one can hardly walk in there. And if he didn't insist hat he was going to finish every one of those projects, a lot of them would have been cut up, what was usable saved, and the rest going to the scrap yard. Unfortunately, I'm not in charge....

Curious what model and make of tractor? Some older JD's had unloading valve to allow hydraulic pump to bypass when starting. Made a huge difference.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Curious what model and make of tractor? Some older JD's had unloading valve to allow hydraulic pump to bypass when starting. Made a huge difference.

New Holland TV145. I should also mention that this one had fuel drainback issues. I put a check valve into the fuel line to keep the injection pump primed.

[bloopbloob]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

The tank should never cool down when you have a tiger torch in your hand...

Just reading this now. Reminds me of when I was a welders helper back in the day, had a week of -40 to-48 without windchill. My job was to walk around with a tiger torch, throwing fire on all the other tiger torches propane tanks. Then mine would eventually liquefy, and I'd swap it out for one I just blazed. Cycle, repeat. Probably not the safest, in retrospect. ...

[W921]

I noticed the new recirculating block heaters that you hook up vertical on the side of your engine don't have a pump in them. They just rely on the warm antifreeze rising.
On some old equipment its not possible or easily possible to get the heater more than halfway vertical. I'm wondering if they would work like this?
Any local retailers still selling the old ones with an actual pump in them?

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by W921

I noticed the new recirculating block heaters that you hook up vertical on the side of your engine don't have a pump in them. They just rely on the warm antifreeze rising.
On some old equipment its not possible or easily possible to get the heater more than halfway vertical. I'm wondering if they would work like this?
Any local retailers still selling the old ones with an actual pump in them?

Greggs has them. They're just a little expensive.

[lmtada]

Farmers dream. Or farmers kids dream. 150mph lawnmower tractor. Now to convert it to snowblower.
https://jalopnik.com/the-worlds-fast...o-d-1835708966

[KegRiver]

[QUOTE=sourdough doug;4100757]

Originally Posted by Gifted Intuitive

. We would add gasoline to the transmission and rear-end to dilute the oil.
Golly there GI, that sounds damn scary... However, is there something else that one could use....maybe kerosene.....and pls don't say...use lighter oil

Kerosene is recommended, gasoline can really make the day interesting. It's the go to for the hold my beer crowd.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by 4thredneck

I’m pretty sure you’re wrong on the propane. People that haul and use propane would probably disagree with you as well.

What did he say about propane that you don't think is right?

It can't be the part about it turning to liquid in the cold because that is true. And warming it does solve the issue. It's why many who use propane in furnaces cover the tank and put a trouble light under it to keep it warm enough to not liquefy. A common practice in the north.

I don't know about the volume dropping, that doesn't make sense to me. Is that what you were referring to?

I use propane a lot and have for most of my life but I can not confirm nor deny the claim about the volume dropping. It's not something one could readily check so far as I know. Not on a portable tank anyway.

Large storage tanks such as are used for home heating do have liquid level gauges and I have never seen them register lower then normal in the cold.

The volume of vapor would most certainly decrease but then how would one measure that? I have never seen any sort of vapor measuring device on any tank I have owned.

At present I own several 20 and 30 pound tanks, a couple of 100 pounders and one pig. I have owned larger tanks in the past, up to 1000 gallon capacity. All I have ever seen were liquid gauges.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

What did he say about propane that you don't think is right?

It can't be the part about it turning to liquid in the cold because that is true. And warming it does solve the issue. It's why many who use propane in furnaces cover the tank and put a trouble light under it to keep it warm enough to not liquefy. A common practice in the north.

I don't know about the volume dropping, that doesn't make sense to me. Is that what you were referring to?

I use propane a lot and have for most of my life but I can not confirm nor deny the claim about the volume dropping. It's not something one could readily check so far as I know. Not on a portable tank anyway.

Large storage tanks such as are used for home heating do have liquid level gauges and I have never seen them register lower then normal in the cold.

The volume of vapor would most certainly decrease but then how would one measure that? I have never seen any sort of vapor measuring device on any tank I have owned.

At present I own several 20 and 30 pound tanks, a couple of 100 pounders and one pig. I have owned larger tanks in the past, up to 1000 gallon capacity. All I have ever seen were liquid gauges.

As the pressure drops, the propane has a effect of absorbing more cold, and becoming colder. Read up about blacksmiths using propane forges and the propane tanks freeze up if the tanks aren't large enough in volume in 20+ degree temps.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by amosfella

As the pressure drops, the propane has a effect of absorbing more cold, and becoming colder. Read up about blacksmiths using propane forges and the propane tanks freeze up if the tanks aren't large enough in volume in 20+ degree temps.

I don't know what that has to do with my question.

BTW, those small tanks are not freezing up, the issue there is insufficient vapor which is the case with any cold/propane issues.

Larger tanks are less prone to insufficient vapor issues simply because they have more surface area for evaporation.

As for what one blacksmith has to say, I'll take 50+ years of hands on personal experience over the word of an occasional user with unknown number of years experience.

I learned long ago that anyone can write a book. Writing does not make one an expert, but experience does.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by amosfella

As the pressure drops, the propane has a effect of absorbing more cold, and becoming colder. Read up about blacksmiths using propane forges and the propane tanks freeze up if the tanks aren't large enough in volume in 20+ degree temps.

You have a pressure drop as the propane changes to gas from liquid inside the tank that also contributes to the cooling effect.
That's why you will see a frost line form on a tank on a warm day.

[liar]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

You have a pressure drop as the propane changes to gas from liquid inside the tank that also contributes to the cooling effect.
That's why you will see a frost line form on a tank on a warm day.

the pressure in the tank is uniform from top to bottom . the liquid draws heat from surrounding area to change state to vapour which caused the frost build up at the interface between liquid and gas .
also , the cryogenic plant i work at we take the gas stream to -135 f and the propane does not freeze . in a propane tank as the ambient air temp drops , if the interface area is too small , the liquid may not boil fast enough to replenish the vapour being drawn off , so a larger tank , with a larger interface area will generate more vapour . if you are actually freezing off in a propane tank , you have impurities freezing , not the propane . unless of course its below - 135 where you live .

[liar]

before anyone jumps on this let me take back what i said . the pressure at the bottom of a propane tank will be higher than the top solely because of the hydra-static head pressure of the liquid propane plus the hydra-static head pressure of the gas above it . without doing the math i can still comfortably say that the pressure is virtually the same through out a 20 lb bottle top or bottom .

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by liar

the pressure in the tank is uniform from top to bottom . the liquid draws heat from surrounding area to change state to vapour which caused the frost build up at the interface between liquid and gas .
also , the cryogenic plant i work at we take the gas stream to -135 f and the propane does not freeze . in a propane tank as the ambient air temp drops , if the interface area is too small , the liquid may not boil fast enough to replenish the vapour being drawn off , so a larger tank , with a larger interface area will generate more vapour . if you are actually freezing off in a propane tank , you have impurities freezing , not the propane . unless of course its below - 135 where you live .

I dont.believe anyone said propane was freezing but it will turn to a liquid state at around -40c. (This is dependent on the amount of C2 and C4 in the propane).If no heat is added it won't vaporize fast to keep up with whatever you are trying to burn.
If you have a high flow on a hot day the propane in the bottle will cool enough that it is not boiling fast enough even with the bottle being half full.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Battle Rat

I dont.believe anyone said propane was freezing but it will turn to a liquid state at around -40c. (This is dependent on the amount of C2 and C4 in the propane).If no heat is added it won't vaporize fast to keep up with whatever you are trying to burn.
If you have a high flow on a hot day the propane in the bottle will cool enough that it is not boiling fast enough even with the bottle being half full.

Interestingly enough propane being used as a refrigerant in a PE course I'm doing for work right now was a topic. Propane doesn't evaporate below -41.9. That would explain the "flame thrower" type of flame coming out of the end of a tiger torch until the tank was heated with said flame on those cold northern mornings back in the day (when rigs were made of wood and men were made of steel)