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  #31  
Old 02-18-2019, 01:57 PM
35 whelen 35 whelen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
That information is provided in the link I posted under "Hunter Demographics".

NR Alien - 7.370

This would be the number of Hunting Licences sold to NR Aliens, not for specific big game tags.


----
We previously went over the issue of NRs hunting big game in Alberta and specifically for those in the draw. I provided detailed data for each individual species.



I'll have to dig up the data, but IIRC Less than 2% of draw licences are issued to NR Canadians Hunter hosted for the few draws they are eligible for.


People wouldn't believe how LOW the percentage of NR Canadians are in the draw, it wrecked their argument that this is any kind of a problem.


When the facts are known, it is hard to view a desire to eliminate NR Canadians as anything other than being greedy. Most Hunter Hosted licences go to Fathers, Sons, Daughters of Alberta residents... and people want to get rid of this?

Didn't yo Momma teach you to share at all?


Then there are those with a distorted understanding of what NR Hunter Hosts can apply for, such as 410 Sheep....
Marky Mark, you might want to review the Draw regulations.
As for non-resident aliens the only problem I have is when they're getting tags every year like for Antelope and moose but we have to wait years and years for, I was a guide for 20 years in Alberta and was always on the other side of the fence ,I have no problem with the hunter host as long as it's not abused .
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  #32  
Old 02-18-2019, 02:13 PM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
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A non-resident has just as much, if not more, trophy hunting opportunity in Alberta then a resident does.
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  #33  
Old 02-18-2019, 02:29 PM
bigwolf bigwolf is offline
 
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I see it now Walking Buffalo. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.
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  #34  
Old 02-18-2019, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
A non-resident has just as much, if not more, trophy hunting opportunity in Alberta then a resident does.
Definitely more.
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  #35  
Old 02-18-2019, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by huntwat View Post
Definitely more.
As it should be.
We Albertans hunt all over Canada! And the universe.
These other provinces are contributing vastly in the form of transfer payments, energy and political support to Albertans and our industries that the least we could do it stick-it to our young/new hunters and continue to encourage non-residents support of our multi-billion dollar outfitting/internet hunt swap business. The business our hunting hertitage was built on.
We are running out of no trespassing signs too. Maybe get them to bring some with them.
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  #36  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:30 PM
IronNoggin IronNoggin is offline
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Originally Posted by marky_mark View Post
I don’t see the benefit of non residents hunting here without paying market value for the animals.


Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
I'll have to dig up the data, but IIRC Less than 2% of draw licences are issued to NR Canadians Hunter hosted for the few draws they are eligible for.

People wouldn't believe how LOW the percentage of NR Canadians are in the draw, it wrecked their argument that this is any kind of a problem.

When the facts are known, it is hard to view a desire to eliminate NR Canadians as anything other than being greedy. Most Hunter Hosted licences go to Fathers, Sons, Daughters of Alberta residents... and people want to get rid of this?
As I recall it was less than 1.6 % overall.
Anyone really consider that a "threat" to your own chances of success?
Really? It means you get an "extra" chance every 94 years.
The greed factor certainly shines through in some.

I really enjoy taking my Alberta buddies out here in BC for goats, moose, caribou, bears and more.
And I really appreciate the odd run back to my old stomping grounds in Alberta for deer.
Certainly wouldn't like losing the opportunity to do either simply because somebody wants to cut off their nose to spite their face!

Cheers,
Nog
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  #37  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:41 PM
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One of the main arguments that I read over and over again is that a Non Resident Alien can buy a tag/hunt every year and this is not an option for residents. Why doesn't APOS change the tag allocations so that they can be sold to both residents, non residents, and non resident aliens.

This would both open allocations up for the residents that want to buy a tag every year, and increase business and demand for outfitter allocations.

Seems like a win win for everyone.
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  #38  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:42 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Time to be greedy. Our wildlife is in state of mismanaged despair.
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  #39  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:42 PM
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Not everyone cares to hunt with an Alberta outfitter.
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  #40  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Not everyone cares to hunt with an Alberta outfitter.
The utilize the hunter host program if you're not from Alberta but from Canada or put in your draws and wait if you're from Alberta.

Seem simple enough.
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  #41  
Old 02-18-2019, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by KyleSS View Post
The utilize the hunter host program if you're not from Alberta but from Canada or put in your draws and wait if you're from Alberta.

Seem simple enough.
Or better yet hunt swap with internet strangers all over Canada.
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  #42  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by KyleSS View Post
One of the main arguments that I read over and over again is that a Non Resident Alien can buy a tag/hunt every year and this is not an option for residents. Why doesn't APOS change the tag allocations so that they can be sold to both residents, non residents, and non resident aliens.

This would both open allocations up for the residents that want to buy a tag every year, and increase business and demand for outfitter allocations.

Seems like a win win for everyone.
Because then you would only need one year to know where the Outfitters hunting and everyone would move into his area
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  #43  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:34 PM
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I can’t find anywhere where it says that non residents comprise less than 2% of the draws
This is what I’ve found.
It’s just a basic search.
If you look at the draw summary there is nothing that differentiates between residents and non residents
The way that’s it’s described, it appears that you would have to be included in a group draw. So when the lowest priority is picked, everyone gets a tag.
Correct?? I could be wrong, but that’s what it sounds like.

There is a separate draw for non resident trophy sheep. Going off of the refs I am assuming that it would be the same way.

So then technically a non resident has as much of an opportunity as a resident, if not more. Because they have the option to buy a guided hunt as well.

I don’t have a problem with non residents hunting here. But I believe that residents should have a better opportunity. My problem is with the people who abuse the system. It has flaws and is easily exploitable.
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  #44  
Old 02-18-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by KyleSS View Post
One of the main arguments that I read over and over again is that a Non Resident Alien can buy a tag/hunt every year and this is not an option for residents. Why doesn't APOS change the tag allocations so that they can be sold to both residents, non residents, and non resident aliens.

This would both open allocations up for the residents that want to buy a tag every year, and increase business and demand for outfitter allocations.

Seems like a win win for everyone.
From what I’ve heard, the trouble with this is that they worry that a bunch of well-off albertans or lobby groups would buy up all the allocations and be their own outfitter year after year, with no benefit to the local economies or the various professional outfitters.

I can’t say i agree with that logic, but that’s just what I’ve heard.
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  #45  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:20 PM
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So there is 2 non resident trophy sheep draw tags according to the regs
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  #46  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:22 PM
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Non residents can partner with residents if they are drawn
Residents can partner with non residents if they are drawn
Doesn’t say if there is a limited number of non resident draws
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  #47  
Old 02-18-2019, 06:38 PM
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It is more then 2%. They put in for moose, mule, antelope... draw with and AB buddy and go.
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  #48  
Old 02-19-2019, 04:28 AM
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Well this got off track fast. I wish I didnt start this thread now.
Yup it doesn't take long to have a run away train jump the tracks
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  #49  
Old 02-19-2019, 09:44 AM
West O'5 West O'5 is offline
 
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This is only my opinion - and I’m an outfitter, so take it with a grain of salt...
And I’m sorry - it’s kind of long winded...
These are wild animals. They’re not property owned by you or me or anyone else... an argument could be made that since legally they ARE crown property, they are owned by every tax paying Albertan, but beyond that, i don’t see how it matters who shoots the damn things.

For my clients, i rent a house in a small town - either through airBNB or word of mouth or whatever. This little town is a former mining town, and quite poor. I think it’s mainly occupied by long haul truck drivers and oilfield workers. It’s close enough to a major tourist area that in the summer, the homeowner does ok with tourists, but once September rolls around, their renters dry up. My clients and i bring valuable dollars to these people. In addition to the food, fuel and other places in town where my guys spend their money.
Every morning - and i mean EVERY morning, as we’re loading up the truck to go hunting, there’s a local fella that drives by (presumably on his way to work) and he recognizes us for what we are - hunters, probably a guide and clients.
Every morning when he drives by, he beeps his horn repeatedly, rolls his windows down, flips us off and screams at us. His language is colourful, but the major gist of it is “go home and hunt your own f-ing deer!”

I’ve always wanted to stop this guy and ask him - who’s deer are they? And who decides that? Is it the landowners deer? If so, he’s free to hunt them and let anyone else hunt them should he choose to do so. We have pretty much sole access on a 35,000 acre ranch, in addition to several other large ranches in the area who allow us to hunt. Are the deer owned by people who live locally? If so, what’s the radius you must live in to be considered “local”? 5km? 50km?
This guy, and all the other haters like that who’re either too afraid to stop and talk, or who only have the courage to argue their point behind a keyboard embarrass me. As an albertan, i would hope we could do better. We are BLESSED with amazing hunting opportunity - and yet get all angry and jealous when some shmuck from Pennsylvania or Oregon comes up to experience what we all take for granted. My main group of guys is an elderly father and his two sons. They’ve been up here about 10 times. Know the roads, know the landowners, and know where the deer are. If they legally could - they’d be able to run their own hunt without me. Yet they can’t, so they hire a lowly guide. A LOT of these guys are just like you and i - working class people who save $ and can only do this hunt once. They’ve always dreamed of an exotic hunt for a different species and in a different country - and this meathead driving down the road is the welcome they get. THAT’S what’s embarrassing to me.
Back to the landowners - i work my butt off to maintain good relationships with them. I DO NOT PAY THEM in ANY way. My operation is clean and legal down to the bare bones. I am respectful, courteous and am at the point where i consider many of them to be personal friends. The landowners of that 35,000 acre ranch even give me hockey tickets to take my kids to flames games. Without fail - every year. I’m there in the spring, summer, fall and winter with all the landowners out there - being friendly, helping out wherever i can.
My point behind this is simply that i invest the time, effort and money in hunting my area. It defines me - is not simply something i DO so much as part of who i am. I don’t show up the day before the season to get permission and then disappear for a year. I invest myself with the landowners who allow access.
So while i don’t own the deer any more than you or The guy in the truck or any other albertan, I’ve worked for my access and relationships more than most.
So the guy in the truck doesn’t bother me any more. I’d like to talk to him, and hope he’s reading this... my guys aren’t taking “your” deer. Because you’d never be allowed to hunt these deer. Because they aren’t “your” deer any more than they’re my deer.
If you’re the guy in the truck (or dislike the non resident aliens like him), and if you’d look beyond your anger and jealousy, and introduce yourself. Talk to the people hunting and the people who are guiding them, you’d see it’s not a bunch of rich *****holes taking advantage of our province and the bounty of wildlife we have. And I’m not a rich outfitter screwing the locals out of “their” animals. I try to be a hard working guy, who loves hunting and I’m trying to supplement my income in the way i love.
This forum needs a “like” button 👍
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  #50  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by SageValleyOutdoors View Post
From what I’ve heard, the trouble with this is that they worry that a bunch of well-off albertans or lobby groups would buy up all the allocations and be their own outfitter year after year, with no benefit to the local economies or the various professional outfitters.

I can’t say i agree with that logic, but that’s just what I’ve heard.
You have to be a professional outfitter that is registered and part of APOS to own allocations.

Also, an easy rule saying you can't allocate an allocation to your own name if you or a business you own, is the licenced owner of the allocations.
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  #51  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageValleyOutdoors View Post
From what I’ve heard, the trouble with this is that they worry that a bunch of well-off albertans or lobby groups would buy up all the allocations and be their own outfitter year after year, with no benefit to the local economies or the various professional outfitters.

I can’t say i agree with that logic, but that’s just what I’ve heard.
I believe Kyle is saying... why not make it the same for residents as non-resident. Residents would still need to book an outfitter like a non-resident and use the outfitters allocation.

I think 35 Whelen may have the real reason.....

Because then you would only need one year to know where the Outfitters hunting and everyone would move into his area

How often do allocations come up forsale?

and

Out of curiosity, how much does an allocation cost to buy? Do they pay a individual tag fee each year on top of that? Never really knew how the system works.
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Old 02-19-2019, 10:16 AM
West O'5 West O'5 is offline
 
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I think 35 Whelen may have the real reason.....

Because then you would only need one year to know where the Outfitters hunting and everyone would move into his area .
I would never ever in a million years guide resident hunters on land I didn’t own and/or have complete control over,I’d be just shooting myself in the foot.
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  #53  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
Time to be greedy. Our wildlife is in state of mismanaged despair.
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It is more then 2%. They put in for moose, mule, antelope... draw with and AB buddy and go.


Here is the NR Special Licence data from 2016.

NR Hunter Hosted accounted for 1.2% of the draw licences issued.

2016 NR Special Licenses issued-
Total - 300
Applications - approx. 1000, Average Successful Priority Level - 3.3

WT - 1 out of 361 total licenses = 0.3%
MD - 149/10,188 = 1.5%
Elk - 32/1826 = 1.8%
Moose - 104/11,114 = 0.9%
Pronghorn - 14/678 = 2.1%

Total Licenses = 24,176
Total NR Licenses = 300, 1.2%



Are you going to maintain that eliminating NR from the draw is a worthwhile endeavour?
If our wildlife is being mismanaged, will excluding NR from the draw effect any positive change to the situation?

Why not put your energy into something that will increase game populations by 1.2%
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  #54  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
I believe Kyle is saying... why not make it the same for residents as non-resident. Residents would still need to book an outfitter like a non-resident and use the outfitters allocation.

I think 35 Whelen may have the real reason.....

Because then you would only need one year to know where the Outfitters hunting and everyone would move into his area

How often do allocations come up forsale?

and

Out of curiosity, how much does an allocation cost to buy? Do they pay a individual tag fee each year on top of that? Never really knew how the system works.

The reason for not allowing Residents to use Outfitter licences is to prevent people buying these allocations for their own use.

Purchase a Mule Deer, Moose or Pronghorn allocation for your favorite WMU and hunt it every year for life.
In essence, this would equate to the privatization of Our Wildlife.

Yet, the way our Outfitter allocations work, while Residents can't purchase allocations for their own use, NR Aliens CAN and absolutely do so.
So we attempt to prevent Resident from owning our Wildlife while allowing NR Aliens to....
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  #55  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by West O'5 View Post
I would never ever in a million years guide resident hunters on land I didn’t own and/or have complete control over,I’d be just shooting myself in the foot.
And why is that.....money.
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  #56  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by West O'5 View Post
I would never ever in a million years guide resident hunters on land I didn’t own and/or have complete control over,I’d be just shooting myself in the foot.
I don't think this would be an issue for high priority point tags. Moose, sheep, some mule deer zone, and some elk zones are a 10+ priority. If you outfitted in this zone and took a resident, then even if they did return, it would only be once every 10+ years.

Now, yes, I know they can tell friends and family and what not; so that complicates things.

Could you get them to sign a confidentially agreement or a non disclosure?
I don't know.

Also, with hunts such as sheep, you are not only offering up a tag, but the knowledge, and amenities along with it.

I know of a number of residents that have drawn tags and still hired an outfitter. They know they have the knowledge and the logistics to make it happen.
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  #57  
Old 02-19-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post

I believe Kyle is saying... why not make it the same for residents as non-resident. Residents would still need to book an outfitter like a non-resident and use the outfitters allocation.

I think 35 Whelen may have the real reason.....

Because then you would only need one year to know where the Outfitters hunting and everyone would move into his area

How often do allocations come up forsale?

and

Out of curiosity, how much does an allocation cost to buy? Do they pay a individual tag fee each year on top of that? Never really knew how the system works.
You are correct in what you thought I was getting at.

Here is the link for the allocations that are up for sale

https://www.apos.ab.ca/information/classified-listings
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  #58  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
The reason for not allowing Residents to use Outfitter licences is to prevent people buying these allocations for their own use.

Purchase a Mule Deer, Moose or Pronghorn allocation for your favorite WMU and hunt it every year for life.
In essence, this would equate to the privatization of Our Wildlife.

Yet, the way our Outfitter allocations work, while Residents can't purchase allocations for their own use, NR Aliens CAN and absolutely do so.
So we attempt to prevent Resident from owning our Wildlife while allowing NR Aliens to....
So what you are say is.... a person could register with APOS as an Outfitter, buy allocations, and then sell the allocation to themselves as resident each year and go hunting. I guess that could be a problem and viewed as the rich having privilege over the poor.

Question for the outfitters. Let's say you have 20 Clients in a year, how many of the 20 are international and how many are Canadian residents?
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  #59  
Old 02-19-2019, 12:40 PM
35 whelen 35 whelen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
So what you are say is.... a person could register with APOS as an Outfitter, buy allocations, and then sell the allocation to themselves as resident each year and go hunting. I guess that could be a problem and viewed as the rich having privilege over the poor.

Question for the outfitters. Let's say you have 20 Clients in a year, how many of the 20 are international and how many are Canadian residents?
Don't think you could do that ,those tags are for n on resident aliens.
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  #60  
Old 02-19-2019, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by brendan's dad View Post
So what you are say is.... a person could register with APOS as an Outfitter, buy allocations, and then sell the allocation to themselves as resident each year and go hunting. I guess that could be a problem and viewed as the rich having privilege over the poor.

Question for the outfitters. Let's say you have 20 Clients in a year, how many of the 20 are international and how many are Canadian residents?
No, you can not currently do that. He is saying that is the problem with my proposal of allowing Alberta resident's buy hunts from Alberta Outfitters using their allocations.


And our client mix is 100% international
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