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Old 12-03-2018, 03:07 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Exclamation 6.5 cm vs 300 win mag

And just to provide context and a different way for people to view things...

6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same penetration (sd.301)

6.5 cm has 55.4% less recoil
6.5 cm has 26.5% less bullet weight
6.5 cm has 5.4% less velocity

That is a shat ton less recoil energy giving up very little everywhere else that matters. Basically maintain same velocities at same distances all the way out.

This is the magic of of the 6.5’s...

The Grendel 123 gr does this to the 308 168 gr, almost identically the above.

The PRC 147 does this to the 338 Lapua 250 gr. Not as close as the two examples above but still so close as to compare.

Maybe this helps big picture the actual real world differences better? And show why it’s not hype and marketing.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:13 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Having the same S.D. does not mean that they will both penetrate exactly the same amount. And even if they did penetrate the same, if both bullets expand by the same percentage, the larger diameter bullet, will have a larger frontal area, which should produce a larger wound channel. If it really is as simple as having a high S.D. , why not just load up some 100gr .224" bullets for hunting Alaskan Brown bears?
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-03-2018 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:16 PM
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The SD value only holds up for a fully intact bullet. It is not the end all be all.

The 300 win mag will penetrate more at the same distances as the CM
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:17 PM
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Which would rather you shoot an angry grizzly with if you had to not stirring the pot im a big 6.5 fan but I know my answer.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:19 PM
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I bet the 300 carries way more energy all the way and will buck the wind better
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:41 PM
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:45 PM
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At an impact velocity (say 2000 fps), a bullet slows to near zero in about 20 or so inches .. all in a millisecond. With the velocity gone, along with the remaining kinetic energy, where did all that remaining energy go and what is the force that keeps that bullet moving ? Just curious.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:07 PM
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Beeman3 Beeman3 is offline
 
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Not knocking the Creed or Grendel. But I leave my 6.5x47 at home when I go elk hunting. I feel way more confident carrying my 300 Win Mag with 215 bergers. I’m getting into smaller calibers and the 6.5 is great. But everything has it’s limitations. Depends how far you shoot and placement trumps everything. I posted some numbers in your previous thread. Energy foot pounds isn’t even close when comparing a 6.5 130 gr to a 30 cal 215 gr. I got to run the 147 gr in my Sherman this winter. But again not a fair comparison to the Creed. I’ll drive the 147 around 3200 fps out of my Sherman. Will be impressive I think.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
At an impact velocity (say 2000 fps), a bullet slows to near zero in about 20 or so inches .. all in a millisecond. With the velocity gone, along with the remaining kinetic energy, where did all that remaining energy go and what is the force that keeps that bullet moving ? Just curious.
Good question to ask the dead animal? Or perhaps the wounded one if it gets caught up too?😉
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:23 PM
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I bet the 300 carries way more energy all the way and will buck the wind better
The only thing that carries energy is your shoulder and sometimes that little spot between your eyes.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Having the same S.D. does not mean that they will both penetrate exactly the same amount. And even if they did penetrate the same, if both bullets expand by the same percentage, the larger diameter bullet, will have a larger frontal area, which should produce a larger wound channel. If it really is as simple as having a high S.D. , why not just load up some 100gr .224" bullets for hunting Alaskan Brown bears?
Yes they will penetrate same given same impact velocity and construction(ie; rate of expansion).

No gun will feel big enough with an Alaskan Brown Bear.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:30 PM
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:35 PM
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Good question to ask the dead animal? Or perhaps the wounded one if it gets caught up too?😉
I would probably get a better answer from a dead animal. No offence, but I thought you could do better than that.
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
I would probably get a better answer from a dead animal.
You would, that’s the point. Some can follow the numbers.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:05 PM
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Which would rather you shoot an angry grizzly with if you had to not stirring the pot im a big 6.5 fan but I know my answer.
There’s in no gun going to feel big enough in this situation. Your best chance is to be supremely practiced and deadly. That will matter far more than cartridge selection. Prolly better off with bearspray.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:07 PM
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You would, that’s the point. Some can follow the numbers.
.. and around and around you go. Thanks Stinky.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple View Post
The SD value only holds up for a fully intact bullet. It is not the end all be all.

The 300 win mag will penetrate more at the same distances as the CM
Penetration is the result of sd and impact velocity.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:16 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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I am genuinely curious as to what you're agenda is on this thread and the dozen other 6.5 threads?
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
There’s in no gun going to feel big enough in this situation. Your best chance is to be supremely practiced and deadly. That will matter far more than cartridge selection.
Agreed im not argueing whats best for that sitution just a reference one is hitting harder with more energy and leaving a bigger hole. You cannot in deny in one of the two compared there is a big difference in stopping power. I have a 358 STA putting 225tsx out at 3100fps the sd and bc is terrible on that bullet and the trajectory is on par at 300yds with the two compared but woth 4900lbs of muzzle energy and a 35cal hole is there even a comparison on killing power between it and the creed.

Appolagize for rambling and not anti creed at all its a fine cartrdge but numbers dont always mean everything and I do see the merit in your points vs recoil you pay a lot for a little more horsepower
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:21 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Simply perspective, different way to see why. People have a hard time getting over long stigmatized names or figures that don’t matter like they thought etc. Percentages show how little difference things that people think are big differences really are and how big the differences are that really matter on the trigger side of the equation.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:38 PM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Simply perspective, different way to see why. People have a hard time getting over long stigmatized names or figures that don’t matter like they thought etc. Percentages show how little difference things that people think are big differences really are and how big the differences are that really matter on the trigger side of the equation.
Ok. It almost seems like you're pushing some kind of agenda and trying to convert the long action horsepower gun owners from something that they've tried, tested and are happy with to something that you like that imo has less then stellar results in your moòse and deer.

Anyway I do respect your passion for the 6.5 cm.
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:48 PM
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I heard that the 300 Winchester is the best.

Dang,,, the world keeps changing. Ha
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Old 12-03-2018, 05:52 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Penetration is the result of sd and impact velocity.
Penetration is the result of impact velocity, and the S.D. of the bullet as it passes through the animal. With expanding bullets, that also shed mass, the S.D. changes considerably, as the bullet passes through the animal. Therefore, the unfired S.D. is pretty much meaningless, unless you are talking non expanding bullets.

Quote:
No gun will feel big enough with an Alaskan Brown Bear
So if you were hunting Alaskan Brown bear and had a choice of carrying a 300win mag, or a 6.5 Creedmoor, which would you choose. If the premise of this thread is correct, it shouldn't matter to you. Personally, I would not have to think about the choice , I would take the 300winmag.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-03-2018 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:14 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Penetration is the result of impact velocity, and the S.D. of the bullet as it passes through the animal. With expanding bullets, that also shed mass, the S.D. changes considerably, as the bullet passes through the animal. Therefore, the unfired S.D. is pretty much meaningless, unless you are talking non expanding bullets.



So if you were hunting Alaskan Brown bear and had a choice of carrying a 300win mag, or a 6.5 Creedmoor, which would you choose. If the premise of this thread is correct, it shouldn't matter to you. Personally, I would not have to think about the choice , I would take the 300winmag.
The first part was going well until sd is meaningless when it’s everything. Almost there. I explained this in another response already.

As for the bear hunt I’d be perfectly content with any appropriate for game impact velocity, sd and bullet construction. I’d likely be after sd over .3, delayed controlled expansion bullet, and impact velocities north of 2200 fps.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
I would probably get a better answer from a dead animal. No offence, but I thought you could do better than that.
The other 2 amigos should be along shortly to help answer your question
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Last edited by MountainTi; 12-03-2018 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:17 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Why does it always have to be an Alaskan brown bear?

How many grizzlies were shot in Alberta last year? How many of you even had a tag???

You guys do realize this is about penetration, at least that’s what I got from the op.

Fwiw, I doubt anyone would choose a 6.5 Grendel over a 300 magnum if they were grizzly hunting, but being that most of us on the forum live in Alberta I don’t understand why it always has to come back to grizzlies. I’ll bet 99% of the people on this forum haven’t even seen a grizzly in real life. I’ve seen a total
of 5 in my life, and one was in the park. Never once did I wish I had a 300 magnum when I came across a grizzly.

The topic is about penetration, maybe leave the grizzlies alone since they’re protected.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:19 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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I dont think his knowledge is anywhere near what he would like us to believe.
So much for spreading the knowledge base
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:20 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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Originally Posted by Norwest Alta View Post
Ok. It almost seems like you're pushing some kind of agenda and trying to convert the long action horsepower gun owners from something that they've tried, tested and are happy with to something that you like that imo has less then stellar results in your moòse and deer.

Anyway I do respect your passion for the 6.5 cm.
Lol, my 15 yrd recoveries and also amount of shots fired are less than pretty much all the stories of friend kills this year, and their friends? It’s all perfectly acceptable to me as I know how it goes and I’ve been there done that so don’t take those words as criticism of a whole bunch of normal hunting situations and kills. That’s not it at all, I’m not blaming at all, not cartridge, not shooter, no blame, no finger pointing, just stating what happens/ed.

What I’m saying here is that good shooting goes well, marginal shooting goes marginal, lousy shooting is a lottery....and none of it really affected by cartridge choice. Unless you’re shooting lousy because of the cartridge. Other than that I fully expect my Grendel to deliver average results over time and as a direct reflection of my shooting ability. Just as I would expect out of all the other cartridges I’ve shot or been witness too. There’s no surprises in any of it.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:20 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same penetration (sd.301)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Penetration is the result of sd and impact velocity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Yes they will penetrate same given same impact velocity and construction(ie; rate of expansion).

You have to be trolling. Nothing else explains how you justify this as fact.
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