They're poisoning our lakes and rivers to combat 'climate change'

[Sundancefisher]

New Brunswick group to proceed with plan to eradicate invasive fish from Miramichi watershed
MIRAMICHI, N.B.
THE CANADIAN PRESS
PUBLISHED AUGUST 8, 2022

A plan to use a pesticide to get rid of invasive smallmouth bass in New Brunswick’s Miramichi watershed will move ahead this summer, according to the group mounting the operation.

Neville Crabbe, spokesman for the Working Group on Smallmouth Bass Eradication in the Miramichi, said it has until the end of September to carry out its work, which will involve the use of the chemical rotenone to kill the fish. Rotenone targets fish gills and inhibits their breathing while leaving birds and mammals unaffected.

Crabbe said measures have been taken to protect as many non-invasive fish as possible, including the erection of barriers and the removal of fish to other areas, where possible.

Crabbe, who is also director of communications for the Atlantic Salmon Federation, said his group’s motivation is ecosystem preservation.

“The (area’s) future will depend on the outcome of this project,” Crabbe said in an interview Monday. “We are either looking at a future with a quickly spreading invasive species, or one where we are able to restore the native ecosystem.”

Smallmouth bass, which were first detected in the Miramichi watershed in 2008, can alter ecosystems by preying on native species of fish such as Atlantic salmon and brook trout.

The working group, which is composed of Indigenous and non-governmental organizations such as the Atlantic Salmon Federation, put its operation on hold last September after protesters refused to leave the areas around Miramichi Lake, Lake Brook and part of the Southwest Miramichi River.

Crabbe said since the project was halted last fall, the working group has held five community meetings and “countless other meetings” in an attempt to assuage fears and educate about the chemical’s use.

He didn’t give specific dates for the operation but said 24 hours’ notice will be given through signs posted in the area. Rotenone will be either sprayed or introduced directly into the water, and people will be asked to stay away from those areas while the operation is underway.

“The vast majority of the rotenone isn’t actually sprayed. Most of it is delivered underneath the surface of the water, or through drip cans set up on rocks,” he said.


Crabbe added that in this instance, the chemical, which has been in use since the 1950s, will be used in amounts below the threshold set by Health Canada for safe recreational use.

In a statement issued Monday, Natoaganeg First Nation Chief George Ginnish, on behalf of the North Shore Micmac District Council, which represents seven Mi’kmaq communities, pointed out that the eradication project is “Indigenous-led conservation.”

“Some people don’t know this, some people ignore it,” said Ginnish. “This is a localized, short-term impact for the benefit of the entire 13,500-square-kilometre watershed. If we felt otherwise, we would not be leading it.”

The chief said further delay could guarantee the establishment of smallmouth bass outside of the project area.

“We are committed to completing this critical conservation project,” Ginnish said. The North Shore Micmac District Council is a member of the eradication working group.

Rotenone was recently used by the Nova Scotia government to combat the introduction of smallmouth bass at Piper Lake in Pictou County. The move was supported by a number of conservation groups and the Halifax-based Ecology Action Centre.

Raymond Plourde, the action centre’s senior wilderness co-ordinator, said while his organization does not support the use of chemicals in the environment as a general principle, the battle against invasive fish species can be an exception.

“Serious situations call for, in some cases, a serious response,” Plourde said. “The use of rotenone is not ideal, but it is far better than letting them (smallmouth bass) spread throughout the system and completely and forever changing the species composition.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...invasive-fish/

[Sundancefisher]

https://www.miramichismallmouth.com/

Lots of info that should answer most question.

Here is the last DFO report I can find

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/l...que/349673.pdf

End result.. the weird OP title is so far off… it’s laughable or nonsensical.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Actually… I don’t have a vested interest to defend anyone. And yes… what we need is facts. As this goes on in social media new information percolates in I read it and determine in my own knowledge and experience what is going on. Still limited in not having all the facts however and I recognize that.

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/l...e/40868916.pdf

I found this interesting. Seems unbiased. Reads to some like rotenone is bad however it is also clear there isn’t a lot of information to support or refute the use of rotenone. It’s an interesting case that if someone pulled supporting information from the NB biologists I would love to read it.

You don't find that alarming?

You want this discussion to focus on one thing, the use of Rotenone to control an invassive species but there is a bigger picture.

This is government. Government that has a history of hiding the truth when the truth would get them in trouble.

The truth is they also use Rotenone to irradicate native species when they want to introduce a non native species.
Another truth is that Rotenone kills much more then the target species.

I doubt they know what all it kills and that's a huge problem.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You don't find that alarming?

You want this discussion to focus on one thing, the use of Rotenone to control an invassive species but there is a bigger picture.

This is government. Government that has a history of hiding the truth when the truth would get them in trouble.

The truth is they also use Rotenone to irradicate native species when they want to introduce a non native species.
Another truth is that Rotenone kills much more then the target species.

I doubt they know what all it kills and that's a huge problem.

I would have to say your incorrect
The process for getting any of these products approved is mind blowing

These aren’t google scientists either

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You don't find that alarming?

You want this discussion to focus on one thing, the use of Rotenone to control an invassive species but there is a bigger picture.

This is government. Government that has a history of hiding the truth when the truth would get them in trouble.

The truth is they also use Rotenone to irradicate native species when they want to introduce a non native species.
Another truth is that Rotenone kills much more then the target species.

I doubt they know what all it kills and that's a huge problem.

You missed the next post link with a newer report with more information.

A review of information showing targeted rotenone made the most feasible sense.

Again… you need to read it all and then balance one’s less knowledgeable opinion based upon skill professionals decisions.

You brought up a good example of how this topic went off the rails in social media.

Cherry picking or not knowing all the info makes for poor opinions.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You missed the next post link with a newer report with more information.

A review of information showing targeted rotenone made the most feasible sense.

Again… you need to read it all and then balance one’s less knowledgeable opinion based upon skill professionals decisions.

You brought up a good example of how this topic went off the rails in social media.

Cherry picking or not knowing all the info makes for poor opinions.

Are you sure you aren't working for the government? You sure have the lingo down pat.

Targeted Rotenone is like a targeted Nuclear Bomb, yeah it get's the target and a whole lot of other things along with it.

The problem here is you buy the government's lies hook line and sinker.
I don't.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Are you sure you aren't working for the government? You sure have the lingo down pat.

Targeted Rotenone is like a targeted Nuclear Bomb, yeah it get's the target and a whole lot of other things along with it.

The problem here is you buy the government's lies hook line and sinker.
I don't.

I told you I have some fisheries work in the past. You even passive aggressively mentioned it.

That said.

Are you in this thread because of a distrust for government or a sincerely interest in fisheries management techniques and concerned these biologists don’t know what they are doing.

If the later… then what facts do you have to say their rationale and methodology is wrong or in err?

Like I said. Show me the info I don’t currently have to change my mind.

A person screaming on a YouTube video doesn’t cut it.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I told you I have some fisheries work in the past. You even passive aggressively mentioned it.

That said.

Are you in this thread because of a distrust for government or a sincerely interest in fisheries management techniques and concerned these biologists don’t know what they are doing.

If the later… then what facts do you have to say their rationale and methodology is wrong or in err?

Like I said. Show me the info I don’t currently have to change my mind.

A person screaming on a YouTube video doesn’t cut it.

I believe my mistrust of government would be obvious to anyone willing to actually read what I wrote.
Which clearly you haven't since I gave several examples for why I mistrust government. Gun control laws and the government rhetoric surrounding them are a good example.

As for what I think of bioligests, I think they don't get to make final decissions on government inititives.

They may know what is safe but that does not mean that governments heed thier advice.

I would think you'd know that.

I get it, you don't like the video, I don't like it either, but the bigger picture is there may well be reason for concern here.

That is and always was my point.

As to why I chose to participate in this thread, as much as I dislike that video, I dislike the negitive comments aimed at the OP even more.
Like suggesting he bought into some conspiracy theory.

Like conspiracy theorys are by nature a negative thing. Some are, some are not.
It was a conspiracy theory that this government wants to take away our guns.

Like many conspiracy theories, that one proved to be true.

BTW, I have no desire to change your mind. I don't believe that is possible.

I address your remarks so that others don't change thier minds to conform to your world view.

[Smoky buck]

The fact of the matter is fisheries and game management is mostly just a plan/goals laid out using information/theory to achieve it

The issue lies with the fact not all fishermen/hunters will not always agree with the end goal well others will. Also all humans screw up at times even educated ones. What many fail to realize management plans are no more then theories based on fact and can only be proven by putting them to the test

But there are always those who think there is some sinister plan when really it’s just a different opinion on what the end goal should be

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I believe my mistrust of government would be obvious to anyone willing to actually read what I wrote.
Which clearly you haven't since I gave several examples for why I mistrust government. Gun control laws and the government rhetoric surrounding them are a good example.

As for what I think of bioligests, I think they don't get to make final decissions on government inititives.

They may know what is safe but that does not mean that governments heed thier advice.

I would think you'd know that.

I get it, you don't like the video, I don't like it either, but the bigger picture is there may well be reason for concern here.

That is and always was my point.

As to why I chose to participate in this thread, as much as I dislike that video, I dislike the negitive comments aimed at the OP even more.
Like suggesting he bought into some conspiracy theory.

Like conspiracy theorys are by nature a negative thing. Some are, some are not.
It was a conspiracy theory that this government wants to take away our guns.

Like many conspiracy theories, that one proved to be true.

BTW, I have no desire to change your mind. I don't believe that is possible.

I address your remarks so that others don't change thier minds to conform to your world view.

I don’t understand what you’re all frothed up about. Rotenone has been used as in this manner since the 1950s as well as an insecticide for over 100 years. Some South American tribes have been using plants that contain the compound in this way for a millennia. There’s not a lot of unknowns here.

If you don’t think it was the right thing to do in this particular instance then fine, say that. However you seem to be alluding to some sort of plot to hide information without having really anything to indicate a problem? What specifically do you think is being “hidden” here? What is your concern? Do you not actually have any concern with this action but just a general assumption that gubberment bad so this must be bad?

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I believe my mistrust of government would be obvious to anyone willing to actually read what I wrote.
Which clearly you haven't since I gave several examples for why I mistrust government. Gun control laws and the government rhetoric surrounding them are a good example.

As for what I think of bioligests, I think they don't get to make final decissions on government inititives.

They may know what is safe but that does not mean that governments heed thier advice.

I would think you'd know that.

I get it, you don't like the video, I don't like it either, but the bigger picture is there may well be reason for concern here.

That is and always was my point.

As to why I chose to participate in this thread, as much as I dislike that video, I dislike the negitive comments aimed at the OP even more.
Like suggesting he bought into some conspiracy theory.

Like conspiracy theorys are by nature a negative thing. Some are, some are not.
It was a conspiracy theory that this government wants to take away our guns.

Like many conspiracy theories, that one proved to be true.

BTW, I have no desire to change your mind. I don't believe that is possible.

I address your remarks so that others don't change thier minds to conform to your world view.

Firstly he did buy into the conspiracy theories… you can tell by his title. The comments on the videos are about anti government conspiracies… WEP… Trudeau control… global warming stuff. Sad but true. Almost nothing about the facts.

I got the fact your entire entry has been not trusting government and as you now stated… biologists can make decisions. I worked with goverment biologists. What facts can you bring forward to prove all decisions are not fact based? I can think of the past barbless rule. I know from biologists in the government that that was a political decision. I know approvals of developments also have political pull to ignore decisions. I know the massive pollution from Hintons pulp mills are politically swept under the table… and also oddly ignored by the Greenpeace types.

So am I blinded by what happens? Hardly. But what I do have is education and work experience and science knowledge to stick handle through some of the mess.

Based upon the info at hand… THIS rotenone issue doesn’t have any conspiracy facts. Just a simple process… with a large stakeholder group.

Remember this group isn’t government controlled.

The Working Group on Smallmouth Bass Eradication in the Miramichi
Formed in 2016, we are a group of Indigenous and non-government organizations dedicated to the eradication of smallmouth bass from the Miramichi watershed. Our members include:
​
Atlantic Salmon Federation
Miramichi Salmon Association
Miramichi Watershed Management Committee
New Brunswick Salmon Council
New Brunswick Wildlife Federation

If you want to talk about specific stupid government decisions… let’s be specific. I don’t paint with a giant blanket brush.

As for jumping across a bunch of topics not in this OP… guns… government wanting to take them away. It was never a conspiracy regarding Liberals wanting to take guns away. It’s always been in their DNA and election strategy to identify a group threat they can vilify and make voters sway their way just based upon one emotional topic.

[Glory Hills]

I’m in cold lake right now and couldn’t imagine not being able to eat the fish from these waters

[Bushrat]

We all know rotenone is nasty stuff, if there was something better they would use it. A case of which is worse the cure or the disease. A choice has to be made between a small lake with illegally introduced smallmouth bass or risk them spreading to the entire watershed helping eliminate a threatened major historic fish species. This watershed drains about 13,000 sq. Kilometers and is one the most major Atlantic salmon river system in North America. Natives have lived all over this river and it's many tributaries for thousands of years dependent on the salmon and the first white settlers depended on these same fish from the 1600's to the 1900's. Miramichi lake is a small shallow swampy lake about 1500 meters long and 500 meters wide with a creek running out of it for a few miles where it them joins the southwest branch of the Miramichi River.

I grew up fishing salmon and trout on several branches of the Miramichi river. I know many natives there, am acquainted with one of the protestors and many other natives there of which the majority wishes the protestors, their lobby groups and media would shut up and go away while they try to save the salmon. But no the people behind this protest are focused only on a pesticide that will be used on the tiniest fraction of this huge watershed to save an endangered and very valued species to both Natives and others. Their time would be better spent protesting the widespread aerial spraying of glyphosate by Irving sprayed over the woodlands and river systems of the province every year.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Glory Hills

I’m in cold lake right now and couldn’t imagine not being able to eat the fish from these waters

You will be able to eat the fish from that pond in a year or two, you won't be able to eat many salmon and trout from these waters ever again if the bass get a foothold. I guess you could eat bass, but few people do, they are not the greatest table fare. Save the pond and very possibly ruin a 13,000sq km watershed. Choices...

[The Cook]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

X2 , very controversial, the latest brain wave from "People in the Know. "

Grizz

The same people that let thousands of acres of federal park burn out of control and then call it prescribed.

[KegRiver]

=The Cook;4562675]The same people that let thousands of acres of federal park burn out of control and then call it prescribed.

It seems that this may be just such a case.

In a Report published by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, I found these inconvenient truths;

Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar)
do not utilize Miramichi Lake to any extent

Consequently the impact of Smallmouth Bass on Atlantic Salmon in Miramichi Lake is considered negligible.

But it gets even better. According to this report that looked at "the use of Rotenone for the purpose of eradicating Smallmouth Bass in Miramichi Lake", in their words;

Based on various DFO reports, the only species in Miramichi Lake that currently supports a fishery is gaspereau

Apparently gaspereau in this case refers to alewife and Blueback Herring.

Another interesting little bit of information, it seems that Smallmouth Bass are native to southern Ontario where they co-exist with Atlantic Salmon along with other species found in the Miramichi system.

I'm sure someone will think to counter this by pointing out that Atlantic Salmon have gone extinct in the Great Lakes, which appears to be true, however it appears this had nothing to do with Smallmouth Bass.

In a report on the disappearance of Atlantic Salmon from the Great Lakes I found this interesting,

Although Atlantic Salmon did not become ex

irpated in Lake Ontario until the end of the nineteenth century, evidence of decline in abundance was observed soon after settlement began.

Further on the report states that;

More specifically, causes for decline a

nd final extirpation of the Salmon may include the erection of numerous mill dams, excessive and ill-timed fishing, deforestation, pollution of streams, and sudden rise of the Alewife.
population in Lake Ontario

So it seems that if there is any threat to the Salmon population in Mirimichi Lake it comes from Alewives which are native to that system, not from the introduced Smallmouth Bass.

[KegRiver]

I don't know what's going on here but for some reason I am getting quotes where I did not put any, like in the middle of quotes I did put in.

I tried deleting them but they reappear when I review or post.

I even tried copy and pasting to an editor and then pasting the whole thing back but they still reappeard.

[Positrac]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I don't know what's going on here but for some reason I am getting quotes where I did not put any, like in the middle of quotes I did put in.

I tried deleting them but they reappear when I review or post.

I even tried copy and pasting to an editor and then pasting the whole thing back but they still reappeard.

Probably just your computer trying to tell you something…

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Positrac

Probably just your computer trying to tell you something…

Too much porn yup

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It seems that this may be just such a case.

In a Report published by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, I found these inconvenient truths;





But it gets even better. According to this report that looked at "the use of Rotenone for the purpose of eradicating Smallmouth Bass in Miramichi Lake", in their words;


[FONT=sans-serif]Apparently gaspereau in this case refers to alewife and Blueback Herring.

Another interesting little bit of information, it seems that Smallmouth Bass are native to southern Ontario where they co-exist with Atlantic Salmon along with other species found in the Miramichi system.

I'm sure someone will think to counter this by pointing out that Atlantic Salmon have gone extinct in the Great Lakes, which appears to be true, however it appears this had nothing to do with Smallmouth Bass.

In a report on the disappearance of Atlantic Salmon from the Great Lakes I found this interesting,



Further on the report states that;



So it seems that if there is any threat to the Salmon population in Mirimichi Lake it comes from Alewives which are native to that system, not from the introduced Smallmouth Bass.
[/SIZE]

Can you post a link to this report you are referencing.

There was a preliminary response to a rotenone request.

Then this one that was more comprehensive.

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/l...que/349673.pdf

Many of your points are in conflict.

For example.

Atlantic salmon do use the lake. Adults travel through to spawn. Juveniles live in the rivers and lake till 2 years of age and then migrate to the ocean.

[Ken3134]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

🤦*♂️
This baked clown doesn’t know what he’s talking about

Exactly 💯

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Can you post a link to this report you are referencing.

There was a preliminary response to a rotenone request.

Then this one that was more comprehensive.

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/l...que/349673.pdf

Many of your points are in conflict.

For example.

Atlantic salmon do use the lake. Adults travel through to spawn. Juveniles live in the rivers and lake till 2 years of age and then migrate to the ocean.

Your link contradicts what you say.

According to table 2 on that link only one Salmon was caught in the lake in a full year of sampling by verious means. While 30,688 Yellow Perch, 28,117 White Suckers and 1,704 Smallmouth Bass were caught in the same study.

And by the way, my information came from the very same site.

I did not come up with that information on my own, I simply quoted what they said.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Your link contradicts what you say.

According to table 2 on that link only one Salmon was caught in the lake in a full year of sampling by verious means. While 30,688 Yellow Perch, 28,117 White Suckers and 1,704 Smallmouth Bass were caught in the same study.

And by the way, my information came from the very same site.

I did not come up with that information on my own, I simply quoted what they said.

I see where you are in err.

You need to remember this isn’t sampling data from before smallmouth we’re illegally introduced.

The capture data reflects the current situation with the bass.

The working group says bass are seriously impacting salmon in this system.

The data you are quoting 100% reflects that potential fact. The fact there isn’t a lot of salmon is the result of the bass and so they want to remove as many bass as possible.

The group has been tracking salmon populations since bass were introduced and see a connection to the decline.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

I see where you are in err.


The working group says bass are seriously impacting salmon in this system.

Yet the report you linked hardly even mentions the lake and at no time states that they found any evidance that SMB impacted Salmon as you claim.

In fact it states that minimal interactions are expected between SMB and Salmon and that any that may occure will probibly be competition for space in holding pools. Their words, not mine.

I could find no mention or suggestion that there was any observed decline in Salmon numbes linked to the introduction of SMB.

I did however find a good number of comments about an obseverd decline in the population of SMB during the study.

Are you reading into this report things that simply aren't there.

I did note that you made several claims but offered no quotes, just a link to a report you apearently did not read.

[Bushrat]

Miramichi Lake historically held few salmon, what few ventured in to it were migrating straight thru it to spawn in the little feeder creeks or were simply lost fish that overshot the main spawning grounds, or chose the wrong for them tributary instead of traditional spawning ground tributaries. Poisioning the lake will impact very few salmon. Probably why the bucket brigade dumped bass in there because the lake never was much of a fishing destination. The fear is the bass getting out of the lake and down through the stream that drains the lake and into the main Miramichi and infesting the river system which wouldn't be a good thing for the salmon and trout. There are a few other river systems in the province that have had smallmouth illegally introduced and thy have had a very negative effect on the salmon and trout in those rivers. Compound that with bad logging practices, poaching, dams built over the years, glyphosate spraying for spruce budworm and other factors. Bass are just another nail in the coffin of a struggling pretty much endangered atlantic salmon population.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Miramichi Lake historically held few salmon, what few ventured in to it were migrating straight thru it to spawn in the little feeder creeks or were simply lost fish that overshot the main spawning grounds, or chose the wrong for them tributary instead of traditional spawning ground tributaries. Poisioning the lake will impact very few salmon. Probably why the bucket brigade dumped bass in there because the lake never was much of a fishing destination. The fear is the bass getting out of the lake and down through the stream that drains the lake and into the main Miramichi and infesting the river system which wouldn't be a good thing for the salmon and trout. There are a few other river systems in the province that have had smallmouth illegally introduced and thy have had a very negative effect on the salmon and trout in those rivers. Compound that with bad logging practices, poaching, dams built over the years, glyphosate spraying for spruce budworm and other factors. Bass are just another nail in the coffin of a struggling pretty much endangered atlantic salmon population.

That is what I gathered from what I've read.

It makes me wonder if the goal is to eradicate the SMB simply because, and Salmon are simply the excuse they think will sell.

[Habfan]

Originally Posted by CNP

I'm guessing you are quite susceptible to misinformation. What is the cure for that? Always consider the credibility of your information source. What is the source? What backs up this source? If the information so wild and distressing, why haven't the MSM picked up on it? Research it yourself before further broadcasting the misinformation as you have now. Counter the misinformation with facts rather than ignore it.

Rotenone has been used in AB lakes to kill off invasive species numerous times. It's use is justified by killing off non-native species that threaten native species. It has also been used to kill lakes that have been overcome
with unwanted species that threaten a stocked trout fishery.

This is what I do. Find the information source and check for credibility. Many times I’ve found it’s someone in their mom’s basement making things up.

[esher]

glyphosate spraying for spruce budworm . Explain this please how a herbicide kills insects.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by esher

glyphosate spraying for spruce budworm . Explain this please how a herbicide kills insects.

Sorry, got them mixed up, they spray BTK for budworm, spray glyphosate to kill deciduous trees in clearcuts.