You all kidding me?

[Don Andersen]

You All Kidding Me!

Unfortunately, unlike most good stories, this one doesn’t start with a beer.

I build bamboo fly rods and have for the past 40 years. I sell the rods that I make with a recommended fly line weight rating. As I personally use Cortland 444 Peach or SL lines, I was somewhat unaware what has happened to the fly line weights in the past years.
A customer called and said, “This rod doesn’t cast worth ****! It was overloaded.” Well, I test-cast each rod prior to placing it for sale. The rod cast fine in my hands so I asked the customer what line he was using. “Scientific Anglers Amplitude Infinity model,” he responded. So off to Scientific Anglers web site and I found the model of line he was using. No damned wonder, the line marked 6 weight on the box was really 7 weight line according to the line description from the site.

So that begged the question, how about other lines? A rainy day showed up, so I headed to the web sites of RIO, AirFlo, Scientific Anglers and Cortland looking over their fly line descriptions. I chose 6 weight lines to examine as 6 weight is a transition line between light and heavy trout fishing. Although they all presented the truth on their sites, the fly line box may not contain the line weight and could mislabeled by up to 3 weights heavy. I checked only what I considered trout lines and most of them were floating types.

Scientific Anglers: 23 floating lines checked – 7 of them were rated correctly
5 sinking lines checked – all of them 1>3 lines weight heavy

Rio 18 floating lines checked – 2 of them rated correctly
7 sinking lines checked – all of them 1>3 line weights heavy

Cortland 13 floating lines checked – 7 of them rated correctly
7 sinking lines checked – 5 of them rated correctly -2 were 2 lines weights heavy



AirFlo 13 floating lines checked – 1 rated correctly
1 sinking line checked and it was 1 line weight heavy.


So where does that leave the buyer? You are faced with two issues. Firstly many of the rods manufactured today are often rated 1>3 line weights less that what they should be. However, you are saved as the line manufactures have bought into the game and mark most of their line lighter than is in the box.
Secondly the buyer will really be caught if he believes the internet chatter and buys a line one weight heavier for his new rod. Now he’ll have a 5 weight rod as marked by the manufacturer [ really a 6 or 7 weight] and looking for a line weight heavier, he buys a 6 weight as marked on the box and got a 7 or even 8 weight.
Why this happened, I haven’t a clue. There are industry standards for nearly everything in today’s world. Thankfully, the line and rod manufacturers don’t build nuts and bolts or any other of the myriad of tools, equipment, or parts that make the world go around.

Further notes:

1] The standards for several Fly Fishing equipment are maintained by the American Fly Fishing Trade Association. See: https://affta.org/page/About
2] Several of the line manufacturers have changed their offerings on their sites since I collected the line weight information in July 2021. However, the lines could still be and likely are for sale at retailers everywhere.
2] The data list for each of the manufacturer is provided on my web site
http://www.bamboorods.ca/
2] For those doing their own research, here are the web sites from the four line manufacturers.
https://www.scientificanglers.com/pr...ory/fly-lines/
https://www.rioproducts.com/freshwater/fly-lines
https://www.cortlandline.com/collect...water-fly-line
https://www.airflofishing.com/produc...fly-lines.html

[bessiedog]

You fish with peach colored line…….?



Geebus… there’s your problem right there.

[GStyler]

Thanks for all the info Don.

It seems no one cares about "presentation" anymore when buying flyrods and lines.

For the past 10 years, fly rod companies have been putting out "faster" and "faster" tapers to be able to claim further and further casting distance. With that came the over-rated fly lines.

I didn't realize it was as prevalent as you are finding.

Can you expand on the line:

the fly line box may not contain the line weight and could mislabelled by up to 3 weights heavy.

...are they overweighting their lines by up to 3X, or are you saying that its possible that the wrong line actually got put in the box that you are buying?

Now, before Anyone continues reading further... I want to say that I would never recommend anyone buy a RIO fly line - unless the like their line to have a memory coil, and crack after a couple uses. I'm only putting this info here to help highlight Don's point about how line weight have all been messed up. and it is in no way a recommendation to go buy RIO lines.(and please don't derail the thread based on this comment)

A couple weeks ago, RIO released their "LightLine" series.

RIO’s LightLine has been designed to load slower, more traditional action fly rods such as bamboo, glass and the more “Classic” flexing graphite rods. Built to precisely match the industry line standards, this line will not overload such rods – even at longer range.

...in other words, this line is made to the proper weight that it should be made to. It not not "light" at all, it is the correct weight.

What a mess!

[pikergolf]

Blame it on the rod manufacturers. They build rods for distance, their rods work right with long lengths of line. Problem is most guys cannot carry that much line in the air. The line guys don't want people saying their lines don't work so they started making the a half weight heavy. Rod manufactures respond with step one again and the circle repeats. A small percentage of casters can actually get the most out of a distance rod, yet that is what the masses want.

I am with Don on the Courtland fly lines 444 SL is an amazing distance line.

[badger]

Since I build all my rods from blanks and use the CCS rod rating for choosing a line weight the incorrect (misleading?) labelling of rods and lines is not a problem. As you found, sink line variation from the label is the greatest. When choosing a line I always shoot for a CCS frequency of 90 cpm to get the casting performance I want, the rod will usually carry 70 feet in the air when lined properly. Some rods have a 7 weight label and are happy with a 4 weight line, one rod is rated as a 9 weight for CCS flex but casts a AFTMA 5 weight best.

Have you considered measuring your rod flex and frequency to recommend a line weight, maybe even a specific line? It's more critical on two handed rods where the cast starts with a fixed length of line out at the start of the cast, with single handed casting the amount of line at the start of the cast varies widely.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by badger

Since I build all my rods from blanks and use the CCS rod rating for choosing a line weight the incorrect (misleading?) labelling of rods and lines is not a problem. As you found, sink line variation from the label is the greatest. When choosing a line I always shoot for a CCS frequency of 90 cpm to get the casting performance I want, the rod will usually carry 70 feet in the air when lined properly. Some rods have a 7 weight label and are happy with a 4 weight line, one rod is rated as a 9 weight for CCS flex but casts a AFTMA 5 weight best.

Have you considered measuring your rod flex and frequency to recommend a line weight, maybe even a specific line? It's more critical on two handed rods where the cast starts with a fixed length of line out at the start of the cast, with single handed casting the amount of line at the start of the cast varies widely.

By CCS do you mean the Common Cents System?

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by badger

Since I build all my rods from blanks and use the CCS rod rating for choosing a line weight the incorrect (misleading?) labelling of rods and lines is not a problem. As you found, sink line variation from the label is the greatest. When choosing a line I always shoot for a CCS frequency of 90 cpm to get the casting performance I want, the rod will usually carry 70 feet in the air when lined properly. Some rods have a 7 weight label and are happy with a 4 weight line, one rod is rated as a 9 weight for CCS flex but casts a AFTMA 5 weight best.

Have you considered measuring your rod flex and frequency to recommend a line weight, maybe even a specific line? It's more critical on two handed rods where the cast starts with a fixed length of line out at the start of the cast, with single handed casting the amount of line at the start of the cast varies widely.

I frankly have no interest in measuring this or that or playing with this or that. When I wish a 1/4” bolt 2” long I have no desire to play a silly game where the manufactures “thinks” I need a larger one.
Put the line in the package the weight it says on the package.


Don

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

I frankly have no interest in measuring this or that or playing with this or that. When I wish a 1/4” bolt 2” long I have no desire to play a silly game where the manufactures “thinks” I need a larger one.
Put the line in the package the weight it says on the package.


Don

So does this mean when I buy a line at Fish Tales that I make sure the weight is correct?

[thumper]

Thanks Don ! I can add that to my other excuses for my poor casting!

[Don Andersen]

Clearly, the fast auctioned graphite rods are really underlined with the line manufacturer aiding in the deception as demonstrated by the information presented.
Obviously the BS stops when the line manufacturers mark the packaging correctly. This would drive the rod manufacturers to also mark their rods correctly.

Regards,



Don

[Bushrat]

I find the newer stiff rods almost unfishable with the line weights they are classed as. Perhaps if you cast 80 or 100 feet with a six weight on a six weight rod you might have enough weight in line out there to load the rod, but that same rod with the same line trying to cast 25 to 40 feet is horrible.

I don't make many long casts so to get my rod to flex and work the way I like it I have to buy lighter rods than usual or overline them just so I can feel the line when I cast.

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I find the newer stiff rods almost unfishable with the line weights they are classed as. Perhaps if you cast 80 or 100 feet with a six weight on a six weight rod you might have enough weight in line out there to load the rod, but that same rod with the same line trying to cast 25 to 40 feet is horrible.

I don't make many long casts so to get my rod to flex and work the way I like it I have to buy lighter rods than usual or overline them just so I can feel the line when I cast.

Doesn’t that **** you off?

It would ne!

Don

[Outbound]

This would explain why my newer rods all feel underlined. I've been thinking of stepping up 1 or even 2 line weights just to get my rods to load properly.

[fishinhogdaddy]

Good post Don.

New line on my old rod. Thought it was my old shoulders that were to blame.
I, as well, am a Cortland 444 guy. Liked it and never changed, until now. Bought a Rio line due to no 444 being available locally in the weight I wanted and can't cast it worth a S**T!!
Agreed about your "bolt" comparison.
Why can't they just leave well enough alone?
****ed dollars away on something that I don't like and isn't useful.
That's the simple reason I stuck with Cortland for over 40 years!
Knowing what you get, without spending away dollars on something that you haven't proven you like or works for you!
FHD

[flyrodfisher]

Don...maybe you built him a left handed rod...lol
Just kidding...

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by flyrodfisher

Don...maybe you built him a left handed rod...lol
Just kidding...

Perhaps I did however he tried and failed to buy the line weight the rated was rated for. His fault, nope.

Don

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Perhaps I did however he tried and failed to buy the line weight the rated was rated for. His fault, nope.

Don

Did he finally get it lined properly?

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by flyrodfisher

Did he finally get it lined properly?

Certainly!

[flyrodfisher]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Certainly!

Excellent!

[huntinfishincampin]

Don

Thank you for your information on this topic. As a fly fisherman that just wants to fish and cast well it is disappointing that I can't just purchase with my hard earned dollars what I have been taught to be the correct set up. Why must life be such a challenge when it comes to fishing....
How does a person know now that the line they have is correct for their rod??

Thanks
HFC

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by huntinfishincampin

Don

Thank you for your information on this topic. As a fly fisherman that just wants to fish and cast well it is disappointing that I can't just purchase with my hard earned dollars what I have been taught to be the correct set up. Why must life be such a challenge when it comes to fishing....
How does a person know now that the line they have is correct for their rod??

Thanks
HFC

Hi,
You can only determine what line weight works for you if you cast the rod. No easy solution - sorry.
The real scary part is how the beginner gets set up with decent casting equipment.

Don

[Fil_Can_Yakker]

Good info! Thanks Don

[Don Andersen]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

You fish with peach colored line…….?



Geebus… there’s your problem right there.

Bessie,

I’ve used Cortland lines since 1964. Plus I weighed each of them with my RCBS powder scale and found them bang on for the weights stamped on the boxes. I own Cortland floaters from 2>9 weights and perhaps 6 sinkers.
I bought a Rio once, the running line was so slim that tangles occurred regularly. It was used for one day.
I have a number of Scientific Lines all of which are true to the box rating stamped on the box. Many in their line up are mislabelled.

Chose wisely.

Don

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Don Andersen

Hi,
You can only determine what line weight works for you if you cast the rod. No easy solution - sorry.
The real scary part is how the beginner gets set up with decent casting equipment.

Don

It's scary for the beginner. That much I do know.

I got my first fly rod around 1980, since then I've used it maybe four times.

The problem I had was there was no one I knew that knew anything about fly rods, fly lines or fly fishing. I didn't even have youtube back then, so learning was pretty much a trial and error affair.

Back then I used to go fishing out west a lot. Mostly in the foothills west of Edmonton.

But around 1990 I move back north where there are few opportunities to use a fly fishing setup.

I still have the rod I bought back then, and a few dozen flies but haven't used them in years.
Every now and again I'll take it down and make a few practice casts down the driveway but other then that it's just a wall queen.

Never-the-less I find this conversation fascinating. I had no idea fly fishing could be so complicated. But to tell the truth, I understand less then 10% of what's been said here.

And I'm not sure that it would be worth my time to try to learn enough to understand.

Aside from a couple of stocked trout lakes there is very little oppertunity to use a fly setup around here since they shut down the Grayling fishery.

I think that for a lot of beginners, opportunity and mentors may be the biggest hurdler to overcome, and a scary proposition.

With gun toting folks on the covid thread wishing people like me were dead I'm not sure I would want to ask anyone for help these days.

I can only imagine how scary it must be for a 16 year old kid these days.

[crazy_davey]

Keg, head down south, I’ll teach ya how to fly fish with what you have, give you some tips, and we can go catch some fish. I even have a cabin you can stay in.

Don’t worry about the Covid fanatics. It just goes to show you how social media, mainstream media plus the government has messed with people’s minds. The fear people are are experiencing is actually quite interesting and a little bit scary in itself.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

Keg, head down south, I’ll teach ya how to fly fish with what you have, give you some tips, and we can go catch some fish. I even have a cabin you can stay in.

Don’t worry about the Covid fanatics. It just goes to show you how social media, mainstream media plus the government has messed with people’s minds. The fear people are are experiencing is actually quite interesting and a little bit scary in itself.

Thank you. That is a really nice gesture.

This year I won't likely get there, with hunting season opening up and the goose outfitters having trouble finding clients I may get to hunt geese this year and then of course there is the other hunting opportunities.
And the fall fish run in the Peace River.

Although a shadow of what it used to be like it's still the best fishing of the year around here.

If you ever go looking for bear, keep me in mind. I'm pretty sure I could get you more then one opportunity to line up on a good one.
And I have plenty of room to park a camper, both here and where I see the most bears. I may even be able to find you an empty bed if you don't have a camper.