Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Fly-Fishing Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-24-2024, 10:11 AM
densa44 densa44 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North of Cochrane
Posts: 6,667
Unhappy Crowsnest River has run dry?

I'm floating around the south pole right now and I hear from home that the Crowsnest has run dry. I hope that is not true, but I know that it could be.

Lundbreck falls depends on that river not to mention one of the world's best trout streams.

What next?
__________________
"The well meaning have done more damage than all the criminals in the world" Great grand father "Never impute planning where incompetence will predict the phenomenon equally well" Father
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-24-2024, 11:13 AM
Samik Samik is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Fort Sask
Posts: 34
Default

Don't know about the river, but I'm down on the ice too. You in Macktown, or a tourist?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-24-2024, 12:44 PM
HappyShootMore's Avatar
HappyShootMore HappyShootMore is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: The Run.
Posts: 81
Default

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/calgaryh...626b66bc3/amp/
__________________
Stay frosty.......
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-24-2024, 01:01 PM
59whiskers 59whiskers is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: South West Alberta
Posts: 804
Default

Trudeau desires to double the Canadian population in the next 25 years. The UPC is on the same page. Not sustainable at this rate.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-24-2024, 09:26 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Strathmore
Posts: 5,605
Default

Scary situation.
__________________
If you're not a Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a Conservative when you're old, you have no brain. Winston Churchill

You can, you should, & if you're brave enough to start, you will. Stephen King
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-25-2024, 10:39 AM
-JR- -JR- is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Edm.
Posts: 4,887
Default

Not good at all . We need more snow and more rain this year !
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-25-2024, 04:42 PM
pgavey pgavey is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Beaver Mines AB.
Posts: 880
Default

Low but not dry.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-26-2024, 06:24 AM
lannie lannie is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CNP
Posts: 3,758
Default

Doesn't look any lower than any other year in February. Most of the water in the Crowsnest river is spring water.
__________________
You are what you do, not what you say.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-26-2024, 11:38 AM
urban rednek's Avatar
urban rednek urban rednek is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 3,406
Exclamation Found this down a rabbit hole

This report may be useful when comparing historical data on the Crowsnest River.
164 pages titled "Crowsnest River watershed aquifer mapping and groundwater management planning study TWPS 006 to 009, RGES 01 to 06 W5 Alberta"
It was submitted to the Oldman Watershed Council in March 2013.

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...26+Groundwater
__________________
“One of the sad signs of our times is that we have demonized those who produce, subsidized those who refuse to produce, and canonized those who complain.” - Thomas Sowell

“We seem to be getting closer and closer to a situation where nobody is responsible for what they did but we are all responsible for what somebody else did.”- Thomas Sowell
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-28-2024, 10:01 AM
CNP's Avatar
CNP CNP is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,495
Default BS

I'm laughing at this. The Crow is not dry. Not at risk of going dry. The current flow rate measured at Frank is 1.3 cubic metres per second (roughly 15,850 GPM). There is lots of snow in the mountains. Somebody has a gifted imagination.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-28-2024, 06:22 PM
Drewski Canuck Drewski Canuck is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,942
Default

Unless you have a chinook blow through and some run off that does not go into the air by evaporation, all winter flows will be from springs and the flow from storage areas like beaver dams, irrigation dams and lakes with year round flow.

So for the Crowsnest to go dry is possible.

If ALL Industrial users took their allotment of the water licences downstream from Fort McMurray, the Athabasca River also would go dry.

So lets look at how to fix the problem, which means trying to capture ground water in the recharge areas to feed the springs all winter long.

Pumping ground water out will hurt the water table eventually. After successive drought years, the water table keeps dropping and the springs run dry. 100 foot water wells can be "dusters" requiring drilling to 200 foot to reach water. That is a declining water table.

Back in the late 2000's the St. Paul area received a record 18 inches or rain one summer. The lakes came up in the fall by 1 inch. Why? The ground had been so dry for so long that all the rain was absorbed into the ground, or the connected aquifers to the lake beds had to be recharged to saturation before the lake level could finally rise.

Only after saturation and recharge of the water table was there going to be any over land run off.

So quit ditching the low spots in the land for convenient farming. Encourage water retention and absorption were possible, even if it means drilling recharge wells.

The low spots are natural recharge areas to the aquifers and these are the eventual springs that give the winter flow to the rivers.

A hard lesson to learn, but perhaps the lesson will finally "sink" in with the local planning authorities in the Counties, and the towns that rely on the water.

But to prove the point, the San Juaquin Valley in California has SUNK as much as 28 feet in elevation because of continued pumping out of the ground water for farming. Las Vegas has dropped 8 feet as well.

Drewski
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-29-2024, 12:28 PM
densa44 densa44 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North of Cochrane
Posts: 6,667
Default I think that is bad news

IME I have found that any problem that requires people to; smarten up, not be selfish/greedy or engage in long range planning will fail.

It is a shame.
__________________
"The well meaning have done more damage than all the criminals in the world" Great grand father "Never impute planning where incompetence will predict the phenomenon equally well" Father
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-29-2024, 12:32 PM
honda610 honda610 is online now
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: 509
Posts: 855
Default

Good point Drewski. My uncle who is 80 now and has over 9k acres of farm land. Almost never cleared bush or sloughs he always said those are needed. We need to look at taking percentages of run off and store or.make more reservoirs in the province. My quarter in Athabasca was floating last summer. Normal dry ground had 5 inches on top and it soaked in real fast. We need rain again thus spring. And some future planning.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-03-2024, 11:12 AM
rem338win's Avatar
rem338win rem338win is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cowtown, agian
Posts: 2,815
Default

We've needed water and soil recovering programs for 40 years. The issue is we keep electing idiots because they're the only ones willing to politic with rare exception. So the idiots hire idiots that never leave.

The Crowsnest is low, and it's quite a bit lower than winter past. We are in a drought cycle, and it looks a lot like the 80s again. But contrary to our ideologues, the world isn't ending.

We just need to be responsible and stop a bunch of things we've decided we're now entitled to.
__________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
- Sir Winston Churchill

A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.
-Thomas Paine
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-03-2024, 07:45 PM
Mr Flyguy Mr Flyguy is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,578
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck View Post
Unless you have a chinook blow through and some run off that does not go into the air by evaporation, all winter flows will be from springs and the flow from storage areas like beaver dams, irrigation dams and lakes with year round flow.

So for the Crowsnest to go dry is possible.

If ALL Industrial users took their allotment of the water licences downstream from Fort McMurray, the Athabasca River also would go dry.

So lets look at how to fix the problem, which means trying to capture ground water in the recharge areas to feed the springs all winter long.

Pumping ground water out will hurt the water table eventually. After successive drought years, the water table keeps dropping and the springs run dry. 100 foot water wells can be "dusters" requiring drilling to 200 foot to reach water. That is a declining water table.

Back in the late 2000's the St. Paul area received a record 18 inches or rain one summer. The lakes came up in the fall by 1 inch. Why? The ground had been so dry for so long that all the rain was absorbed into the ground, or the connected aquifers to the lake beds had to be recharged to saturation before the lake level could finally rise.

Only after saturation and recharge of the water table was there going to be any over land run off.

So quit ditching the low spots in the land for convenient farming. Encourage water retention and absorption were possible, even if it means drilling recharge wells.

The low spots are natural recharge areas to the aquifers and these are the eventual springs that give the winter flow to the rivers.

A hard lesson to learn, but perhaps the lesson will finally "sink" in with the local planning authorities in the Counties, and the towns that rely on the water.

But to prove the point, the San Juaquin Valley in California has SUNK as much as 28 feet in elevation because of continued pumping out of the ground water for farming. Las Vegas has dropped 8 feet as well.

Drewski
San Joaquin
__________________
I fish, therefore I am.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-05-2024, 07:14 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 1,796
Default

Alberta has injected fresh water for Enhanced Oil Production for over 60 years at a rate of 1 bbl. Of oil = 1 bbl. Of water.
The CPR, who invented irrigation in Alberta dumped the whole thing on our Govt after realizing it was a money loosing boondoggle. We keep dumping money into a business which get free water, free infrastructure, destroys rivers, sterilizes land due to Salinization raising cows who crap on the ground at 60 lbs. each day (which is equivalent to 220,000,000 people).
It would make sense if we actually ate the all the products produced.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-05-2024, 09:04 AM
Esox Esox is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
Alberta has injected fresh water for Enhanced Oil Production for over 60 years at a rate of 1 bbl. Of oil = 1 bbl. Of water.
The CPR, who invented irrigation in Alberta dumped the whole thing on our Govt after realizing it was a money loosing boondoggle. We keep dumping money into a business which get free water, free infrastructure, destroys rivers, sterilizes land due to Salinization raising cows who crap on the ground at 60 lbs. each day (which is equivalent to 220,000,000 people).
It would make sense if we actually ate the all the products produced.

Don
There he is, I was waiting for Don to chime in. Im surprised you're not trying to blame it on fracing again like the Raven River.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-05-2024, 11:11 AM
macee macee is online now
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BowIsland
Posts: 449
Default

I would sure like to know where this free water is coming from.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2b6b9136-586a-ff28-a4e0-7d9da276fdca.jpg (35.4 KB, 119 views)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-05-2024, 11:17 AM
densa44 densa44 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: North of Cochrane
Posts: 6,667
Question I would love to hear what we should do.

I get that we have made mistakes, that's what people do, and then blame others, people do that too.

What would be helpful right now are ideas of what can be done so that we don't lose some of the best trout streams in Canada.

I have been laying out a line on the Castle and Crowsnest rivers for over 50 years and would like to keep it up.

Are there suggestions?
__________________
"The well meaning have done more damage than all the criminals in the world" Great grand father "Never impute planning where incompetence will predict the phenomenon equally well" Father
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-05-2024, 12:41 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 1,796
Default

And the 3 river dam would’ve cost $ 1.7 billion of taxpayers funds today.
Still waiting for my money back
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 03-05-2024, 08:51 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Strathmore
Posts: 5,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by macee View Post
I would sure like to know where this free water is coming from.
Now you'll confuse him with facts. Eleven different irrigation districts in Ab, big source of local jobs. Laying pipe annually to conserve water, reservoirs constructed for irrigation, recreation, and habitat. Generate a pile of Ag & commercial jobs & spin-off value.
__________________
If you're not a Liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not a Conservative when you're old, you have no brain. Winston Churchill

You can, you should, & if you're brave enough to start, you will. Stephen King
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 03-06-2024, 06:49 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 1,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by roper1 View Post
Now you'll confuse him with facts. Eleven different irrigation districts in Ab, big source of local jobs. Laying pipe annually to conserve water, reservoirs constructed for irrigation, recreation, and habitat. Generate a pile of Ag & commercial jobs & spin-off value.
If the rest of us were not paying to keep you guys alive, you’d disappear.
Without Govt money, you are gone.
Vote UCP welfare!

Don
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 03-06-2024, 07:05 AM
Smoky buck Smoky buck is online now
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,471
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
If the rest of us were not paying to keep you guys alive, you’d disappear.
Without Govt money, you are gone.
Vote UCP welfare!

Don
You grow or forage all your own food?

Hate to tell you but agriculture and farming is the whole reason we are no longer a nomadic society. Also a big reason why you actually have time to have hobbies like fly fishing

Could there be improvements to water management but a large portion of the reservoirs in Alberta only exist because of agriculture. There would be far less opportunity for Alberta anglers without it as well. You would also see higher concentrations of development near natural bodies of water without the irrigation that came with agriculture.

Seeking improvement I can respect but use common sense. People might take your position seriously then

The fact of the matter is we are presently in drought conditions and without Mother Nature lending a hand that is not going to change

But no matter the condition I have faith you will always have some kind of complaint
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 03-06-2024, 07:09 AM
Dewey Cox's Avatar
Dewey Cox Dewey Cox is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,418
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
If the rest of us were not paying to keep you guys alive, you’d disappear.
Without Govt money, you are gone.
Vote UCP welfare!

Don
That's a bold opinion for an old person living in a country of public healthare.
__________________
"I like to quote my own quotes" ~ Dewey Cox
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 03-07-2024, 10:10 AM
britman101 britman101 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 321
Default

Here is an interesting link which breaks down water use in Alberta.
Interesting information about how 20 percent of the water supply is within 200 kms of the US border. And how 80 percent of the population resides in that band of land. A long range plan on water management is needed they recommend.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7133575
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 03-11-2024, 06:01 PM
TheHotChili's Avatar
TheHotChili TheHotChili is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 51
Default

I sure hope not....The crowsnest river is a fun river to fish from Coleman to Blairmore and below Lundbreck Falls....even catching fish while people have been swimming and floating all around ...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 03-11-2024, 10:26 PM
CNP's Avatar
CNP CNP is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,495
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHotChili View Post
I sure hope not....The crowsnest river is a fun river to fish from Coleman to Blairmore and below Lundbreck Falls....even catching fish while people have been swimming and floating all around ...
It's not dry. Not going dry. There is lots of snow in the mountains. It looks like it has for the past 50 years. The story published in the media is fantasy.........people creating stories to fit their narrative? I can't explain it otherwise.

Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 03-12-2024, 04:57 AM
Berniebeag Berniebeag is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 40
Default

Couldn't agree more CNP. That headline is completely false, whoever wrote that should be ashamed of themselves. I guess these days most articles in media do not require any truth or facts. Been here over 20 years and the river sure looks like it is at the typical level for this time of year.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 03-12-2024, 07:01 AM
Bigwoodsman Bigwoodsman is online now
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 8,297
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berniebeag View Post
Couldn't agree more CNP. That headline is completely false, whoever wrote that should be ashamed of themselves. I guess these days most articles in media do not require any truth or facts. Been here over 20 years and the river sure looks like it is at the typical level for this time of year.
Couldn't agree more.

Copy and Paste, spread the fear....

BW
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 03-13-2024, 09:40 AM
FlyTheory's Avatar
FlyTheory FlyTheory is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,480
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNP View Post
It's not dry. Not going dry. There is lots of snow in the mountains. It looks like it has for the past 50 years. The story published in the media is fantasy.........people creating stories to fit their narrative? I can't explain it otherwise.

I agree with you, but to be fair, the snow pack is garbage this year. I work in the area and can say it’s not like what it was 10-15 years ago.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.