Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-16-2018, 07:59 PM
Talking moose's Avatar
Talking moose Talking moose is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: McBride/Prince George
Posts: 14,521
Default Experts dispel Shockys claim.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north...ukon-1.4946701
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-16-2018, 08:25 PM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default

It's typical of government officials to deny a problem until the body count starts to alarm the public across the whole country.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-16-2018, 08:35 PM
yukon254 yukon254 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Yukon
Posts: 173
Default

I saw that in the paper. Most of our bios up here seem to have an agenda and are not hunter friendly for the most part. Very few ever get out of the office either. I spend 6-months on average in the bush and our grizzly population is as high as I've ever seen it...
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:26 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,230
Default grizz

It is terrible when biologists will care more about a wild grizzly bear that showed preditor aggression, killed a mother & child, and charged a trapper.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:29 AM
Flatlandliver's Avatar
Flatlandliver Flatlandliver is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Airdrie
Posts: 1,490
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
It is terrible when biologists will care more about a wild grizzly bear that showed preditor aggression, killed a mother & child, and charged a trapper.
It’s a complete tragedy what happened but wasn’t the bear just being a bear?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:57 AM
1899b's Avatar
1899b 1899b is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sherwood Park Ab
Posts: 6,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlandliver View Post
It’s a complete tragedy what happened but wasn’t the bear just being a bear?
Yup bears being bears in the bush. If you go out in the bush enough you just might see one...





__________________
An awful lot of big game was killed with the .30-06 including the big bears before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:59 AM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlandliver View Post
It’s a complete tragedy what happened but wasn’t the bear just being a bear?
There is some truth to that, by the same token one could say a rabid Fox is just being a Fox. It is, but it's not normal.

Bears, especially Grizzly are preditory, but humans are not their normal prey.

Stephen Herrero should know better. He was the chief biologist who studied the issues with bear attacks in Banff and Jasper parks. In his books he attributes those attacks to familiarity and food conditioning.

I really wonder about the reporter, did the experts say things that never made it to print that might have supported Jim Shocky's words.
I think it very likely.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-17-2018, 08:59 AM
yukon254 yukon254 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Yukon
Posts: 173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlandliver View Post
It’s a complete tragedy what happened but wasn’t the bear just being a bear?
Yes the bear was just being a bear. Its not unusual for grizzly bears to come out of hibernation or even not den up until later. These bears are almost always extremely aggressive. I knew the trapper that owned that exact same trapline back in the early 90s and he had a big grizzly show up at that same cabin one winter. He had to kill it. Lots of trappers this year have seen grizzly tracks throughout Nov and even into December. We had a poor berry crop so thats probably part of the reason, but the biggest reason is that the population is so high that there is real competition for food. You wont hear biologists say that because they have no idea whats going on out there, they dont spend enough time in the bush to put it together.

Biologists and even the general public think its rare because they never hear about it most of the time. Just a couple of weeks ago a trapper north of me had some trouble. A young grizzly showed up at his cabin one day and he ran it off. Big mistake, he should have killed it on the spot. The bear came back during the night and he was forced to kill it as it was trying to come in through the window.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-17-2018, 09:38 AM
st99 st99 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatlandliver View Post
It’s a complete tragedy what happened but wasn’t the bear just being a bear?
Yes, and human killing the bears is human just being a human as well, but there's another class of human preventing us to be human.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-17-2018, 09:59 AM
KegRiver's Avatar
KegRiver KegRiver is offline
Gone Hunting
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,346
Default

I think Yukon makes a good point.

A lot of aggressive encounters go unreported. The reisdent it happens to either scares the bear off or deals with the problem himself.
If he does report it no record is made because the issue no longer exists.

As clever as the experts may be, they very seldom live where the problem is and spend only limited amounts of time in the feild when they do go out.
Their employers are not about to pay them 24/7

Trappers and land holders are out there every day 24 hours a day.

Biologists also deal with populations as a whole, not with local concentrations.

There could well be a below normal population over the whole are and an overpopulation in one or more small areas within the bigger area.

For example, the coyote populations in Alberta are listed as secure yet there is clearly an overpopulation is some areas in the south.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

George Bernard Shaw
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:09 AM
Big Grey Wolf Big Grey Wolf is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 6,230
Default grizz

Agree with Keg, the Willmore/Grande Cache BMA 3 had over 300 grizz during the low ball 800 Alberta grizz count 12 years ago. Some areas have to many bears and need a grizz bear season to clean out the preditory bears before the hurt or kill more people.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:10 AM
Dean2's Avatar
Dean2 Dean2 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Near Edmonton
Posts: 14,972
Default

If you wait for the Government to first find, then solve your problem you are likely to do a lot of suffering, especially when they have a pre-set agenda that is the exact opposite of your interests. This is far from the first time where experts have colored the truth to serve their purposes. Look at the legion of studies commissioned by tobacco companies and done by universities that showed smoking was perfectly safe, Thalidomide passed Government testing, Asbestos insulation was CSA approved and I could go on forever.

Believe your eyes and personal experience. Even if Bears aren't a problem everywhere, just one too near your home is still a problem. There is no doubt in my mind that there are far too many Grizzlies in lots of places, and in Alberta particularly, they have completely lost their fear of man.

Such a tragedy that this time the Bear killed two people before it could be dealt with. Humans count WAY more than any Bear.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:11 AM
6.5 shooter's Avatar
6.5 shooter 6.5 shooter is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Medicine Hat
Posts: 4,205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking moose View Post
As told by the state broadcaster so it must be true and factual....
__________________
Trades I would interested in:
- Sightron rifle scopes, 4.5x14x42mm or 4x16x42mm
especially! with the HHR reticle. (no duplex pls.)
- older 6x fixed scopes with fine X or target dot.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:27 AM
nimrod's Avatar
nimrod nimrod is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Alberta for the most part
Posts: 2,810
Default

I bet we could find a biologist here to say there is to many around Alberta, every government will find a biologist to confirm there agenda, then after the election the new government will find a different biologist, to say opposite what ever the first biologist said
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:36 AM
alder alder is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf View Post
It is terrible when biologists will care more about a wild grizzly bear that showed preditor aggression, killed a mother & child, and charged a trapper.
x1000.

I found 4 bears within 1KM of me on my 2 sheep hunts this year and always see at least that many for the last 3 years.

Are FN allowed to hunt grizzly in the mountain units? If they are, I can point someone in the right direction. Heck, I'll bring my horses and pack one out for free!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:40 AM
Wolftrapper's Avatar
Wolftrapper Wolftrapper is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 948
Default

It would be nice if the Gov't of Alberta, BC, Yukon and the NWT would allow the Outfitters to take several each year.
If all of you are concerned about saving lives, it shouldnt matter to you who culls some legally.
I think the Outfitters and FN's can do this the best.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:55 AM
sage 13 sage 13 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 939
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolftrapper View Post
It would be nice if the Gov't of Alberta, BC, Yukon and the NWT would allow the Outfitters to take several each year.
If all of you are concerned about saving lives, it shouldnt matter to you who culls some legally.
I think the Outfitters and FN's can do this the best.

I don't agree don't think outfitters and FN could do it best.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-17-2018, 12:39 PM
Flatlandliver's Avatar
Flatlandliver Flatlandliver is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Airdrie
Posts: 1,490
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sage 13 View Post
I don't agree don't think outfitters and FN could do it best.
I hear polysporin works good on fishhook wounds.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-17-2018, 10:32 PM
huntinstuff's Avatar
huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 9,586
Default

The only one who makes $ off a grizzly killed by a hunter is the Yukon govt

Trophy fee gets paid to them.

We sell moose hunts. The hunter also gets tags for sheep, caribou, grizzly, blackbear, wolverine.

If they kill a caribou or griz or sheep, they pay the govt a trophy fee. We are responsible for collecting that fee for the govt.

So when media types make comments about Jim making $ off it, its an uneducated comment.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:42 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by st99 View Post
Yes, and human killing the bears is human just being a human as well, but there's another class of human preventing us to be human.
We are all animals.....just evolved to the point where we make bad and good decisions.....I sure as heck don't need some hammerhead telling me not to shoot any animal endangering my livelihood or families....CBCwhat a joke.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 12-17-2018, 11:44 PM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolftrapper View Post
It would be nice if the Gov't of Alberta, BC, Yukon and the NWT would allow the Outfitters to take several each year.
If all of you are concerned about saving lives, it shouldnt matter to you who culls some legally.
I think the Outfitters and FN's can do this the best.
Oh my......FN......
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-18-2018, 12:09 AM
Bub Bub is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,392
Default

I may be missing something. Unless I am mistaken, this is where the incident took place:



How do you even get to that place to conclude that there is a bear problem in that particular area and that those bears are dangerous to human? (Edit: yes, there is no doubt in my mind those bears are dangerous to people).

This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockey
He goes on to blame the "highly regulated grizzly bear harvest quotas" for the recent attack, saying that "more grizzlies needed to be killed in the wilderness areas, particularly in the grizzly bear management zone that includes Einarson​ Lake."
is pretty ridiculous, in my opinion. Take a look at the map again.

Sure, I can understand this type of statements about the areas where numerous folks go for their daily/weekly run and bump into a bear or two. But this? Take a look at the map again.

Don't get me wrong. It is a very unfortunate turn of events. I can't imagine the way the trapper feels. He did put the bear down, but had he been back minutes, an hour or whatever stretch of time earlier...

It states in the article:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBC
Fatal bear attacks are rare in Yukon. Before last month's attack, there had been three bear-related deaths in the past 22 years in the territory — in 1996, 2006 and in 2014. All involved grizzlies, although black bears are also common throughout Yukon.
Are these stats real or are they fake?

Pardon the comparison, but some of you guys sound like the ban-the-guns crew or worse, just from the other side of spectrum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Herrero in the article
"Unfortunately, every once in a while a person is going to be seriously injured or killed by a bear ... but not nearly as often as we have automobile accidents or other unlikely events."
It really does not mean we have to start killing all bears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numerous posters on this forum
"Unfortunately, every once in a while a person is going to be seriously injured or killed by someone discharging a firearm ... but not nearly as often as we have automobile accidents or other unlikely events."
Just like this does not mean we have to ban guns.

Seriously, take a look at the map again. Better yet, search the place for yourself on the map and then play with the view by zooming in and zooming out to get an even better perspective.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Map.jpg (75.4 KB, 697 views)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-18-2018, 12:39 AM
boah boah is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 863
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1899b View Post
Yup bears being bears in the bush. If you go out in the bush enough you just might see one...

Except in southern ab. You don’t need to go in the bush to see them. They are spreading out. When you see them east of Milk River bow hunting white tails there is a problem. They have become fearless of man and don’t need to hide in the “bush” anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12-18-2018, 12:47 AM
ssyd ssyd is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 752
Default

"Trapper has problems with bears raiding his free food traps"

"People a hundred miles from civilization are encountering too many bears"

"Professional hunter in Yukon thinks his YouTube channel needs more subs"

All of this brings a whole new meaning to "first world problems." These wouldn't have been headlines in the early 1900s.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-18-2018, 05:33 AM
lannie lannie is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CNP
Posts: 3,752
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinstuff View Post
The only one who makes $ off a grizzly killed by a hunter is the Yukon govt

Trophy fee gets paid to them.

We sell moose hunts. The hunter also gets tags for sheep, caribou, grizzly, blackbear, wolverine.

If they kill a caribou or griz or sheep, they pay the govt a trophy fee. We are responsible for collecting that fee for the govt.

So when media types make comments about Jim making $ off it, its an uneducated comment.
If you sell moose hunts and the hunter gets a caribou tag can he not kill the caribou while he is moose hunting?
__________________
You are what you do, not what you say.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-18-2018, 05:47 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssyd View Post
"Trapper has problems with bears raiding his free food traps"

"People a hundred miles from civilization are encountering too many bears"

"Professional hunter in Yukon thinks his YouTube channel needs more subs"

All of this brings a whole new meaning to "first world problems." These wouldn't have been headlines in the early 1900s.
Nope....one of two things would happen, 50 cal Hawkins blows a death cloud out dispatching trouble bear or the ol'shooting iron goes "pop" and bear eats well for a few days....new trapper to the area wonders in finding a rusty Hawkins laying on the ground a few years later.....looks over his shoulder
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-18-2018, 05:47 AM
Supergrit Supergrit is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,002
Default

If there is a healthy population of bears sustained harvest is a good thing it puts the fear into humans it can get rid of the bold animals the ones that have no fear. Would it have killed the bear that got this lady maybe but it’s a big place so then maybe not. This was defiantly a sad situation that happened but they lived in a very wild part of the North were stuff like this is going to happen with a bear hunt or not.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-18-2018, 06:50 AM
Ultimate Predator Ultimate Predator is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 867
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolftrapper View Post
It would be nice if the Gov't of Alberta, BC, Yukon and the NWT would allow the Outfitters to take several each year.
If all of you are concerned about saving lives, it shouldnt matter to you who culls some legally.
I think the Outfitters and FN's can do this the best.
I WANT MY PRIORITY 8 back!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-18-2018, 09:10 AM
yukon254 yukon254 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Yukon
Posts: 173
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bub View Post
I may be missing something. Unless I am mistaken, this is where the incident took place:



How do you even get to that place to conclude that there is a bear problem in that particular area and that those bears are dangerous to human? (Edit: yes, there is no doubt in my mind those bears are dangerous to people).

This



is pretty ridiculous, in my opinion. Take a look at the map again.

Sure, I can understand this type of statements about the areas where numerous folks go for their daily/weekly run and bump into a bear or two. But this? Take a look at the map again.

Don't get me wrong. It is a very unfortunate turn of events. I can't imagine the way the trapper feels. He did put the bear down, but had he been back minutes, an hour or whatever stretch of time earlier...

It states in the article:



Are these stats real or are they fake?

Pardon the comparison, but some of you guys sound like the ban-the-guns crew or worse, just from the other side of spectrum.



It really does not mean we have to start killing all bears.



Just like this does not mean we have to ban guns.

Seriously, take a look at the map again. Better yet, search the place for yourself on the map and then play with the view by zooming in and zooming out to get an even better perspective.
Shockey point was simply that our grizzly population is very high, and our current quota system is making it impossible to manage the population. He is 100% right.

The second point I would make to you is the fact that there are more people out in that wilderness than you think. I personally know three other families that live within the area on your map, and of course lots of prospectors frequent the area as well.

Another point you should consider is statistics....dont believe them. In the last 4 years I have personally killed three grizzly bears in DLP situations. My son had to kill one, and I know of six other bears that were killed by guides, trappers, or prospectors. I reported the incidents I was involved in, but the fact is many dont, especially in BC.

Consider the article CBC recently ran about the Inuit and polar bears. Since they closed the polar bear hunt the Inuit are experiencing the same thing we are....more human bear conflicts! They want the hunt reinstated asap, and people have been killed up there too.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-18-2018, 06:02 PM
huntinstuff's Avatar
huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 9,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lannie View Post
If you sell moose hunts and the hunter gets a caribou tag can he not kill the caribou while he is moose hunting?
Absolutely. We carry tags for all those animals. But there is a govt trophy fee connected to grizz, caribou and sheep.
Many times we see caribou and, at about $5000 trophy fee, its cheaper to take the animal and pay the fee over booking a caribou hunt itself.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.