Hunting Calibers

[Prdtrgttr]

I am curious as to your guy's(or girl's) input on Caliber choices for Big game. I am going to buy a rifle, that will be used primarily for deer, occasionally for Elk, and Seldomly for moose. My shots typically will be between 100-250 yds, and at max of 300-350. I don't like magnums. I've really been looking at the 7-08 because of its oustanding ballistics. With comparative bullets and loads, it shoots flatter than the 308, and hits harder. Additionally, it is so close to the 270, the difference seems negligible, and all in a short action. Be curious to know some opinions...

[Rackmastr]

I have a 7-08.....I love it and I find that its a perfect choice on deer, elk, moose, antelope, sheep, coyotes, etc.....

Its fun to shoot, you can shoot it very accurately with no worries about recoil, and if you handload its a great round IMO...

Lots of good choices out there though......

[Rackmastr]

BTW,
This year I'll be loading the 120TSX as well as the 140TSX and the 140NP and 140AB and we'll see how each of them shoot before deciding what I'll use.....

My rifle is a Rem 700 LVSF in 7-08 sittin in a McMillan stock....nice all-around package.

I'm not certain that I'd say it hits harder than a .308 but it is definitely a good all-round calibre for the needs you described. I'm sure you'd be pleased with it.

[Prdtrgttr]

Sheephunter, I am just going off info from Remington's ballistics. Here's a table that compares kinetic energy of a 308 150gr bullet(top), and 7mm-08 140gr bullet, one of the closest bullet matches I could find at their site:

Energy (ft-lbs)

Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 2648 2137 1705 1344 1048 810
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 2542 2142 1793 1490 1228 1005

Sounds like many of you like the 7mm 08. Thanks for your input.

[Versatile]

I am interested in the same thing. Like you I have been looking at a 7mm-08 but have heard alot of good things as well about the 270.

[Rackmastr]

Yea pretty hard to beat a 270 as well man....

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

Does this include the 270WSM. Great caliber with 140gr Accubonds for the animals you have listed.

[Prdtrgttr]

Yes the 270 is a great cartridge, however, the 7-08 is so close to it, that it's hard to justify the long action versus the short action of the 7-08. Also, the high ballistic coefficient of the 7-08 bullets make it a smart choice. I think my mind's about made up

[Rackmastr]

Prdtrgttr,
The 7-08 is a great choice.....the 270 does shoot a bit flatter, but ya...I like the short-action for sure, and its a pleasure to shoot. You'll enjoy it a lot I'm sure....

I guess my point was Prd that the .308 has a much wider range of heavier bullet weights and it can deliver many more foot pounds of energy than the 7mm08 ever could. Not to take away from the 7 but it's not in the league of the good old .308 when it comes to hitting hard.

my current listing of just "big game" calibers in my safe is .243, .270, .308, 300 win mag, 338 win mag, and a 45-70

if i was a one gun hunter, id buy a .308 win and wouldnt look back. Im no sniper, im no accuracy freak, i just like to hit and kill game i shoot at. Plus a.308 is so user friendly, new people to the sport can handle it, or when the wife comes along there are no problems. we owned a 7mm-08 in a T3, but i couldnt tell the difference between the 308 T3, so we sold the 7mm08, as i preferred the 308

[Rackmastr]

A short action in a Tikka....ewww.......no point really when the actions are all the same length......

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

A short action in a Tikka....ewww.......no point really when the actions are all the same length......

hahaha, when im paying the bills, ill buy what i want. or whatever the wife allows me to

[Prdtrgttr]

Hmmm, sheephunter, I am trying to agree with you, but I just can't say I do. Help me out more if you will. I know that ballistics tables aren't everything, but, if you look comparatively at these two rounds on paper, the muzzle energy is as much as 200ft lbs out, but once 100 yds is breached, and the closer 300yds is reached, the 7mm-08 is right there with the 308, plus it's got much higher BC in its bullets. The top 2 are 308, this is right from Remington's site:


Energy (ft-lbs)

Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington Express 180 PSP CL 2743 2288 1896 1557 1269 1028
Premier® AccuTip™ 165 AT BT 2670 2292 1957 1661 1401 1176
Premier® AccuTip™ 140 AT BT 2542 2216 1925 1664 1432 1225

[catnthehat]

The biggest differences on %90 of the calibers today in the 308 to '06 lengths is strictly on paper.
Between the .260, 7/08, 6.5X55, 308,, 270, 30'06, and any other cartridge you want to throw in, the action length is not an issue to accuracy, the bullet is not an issue, the brand of trifle is not an issue.
THE BIGGEST issue is whether or not you can handle the particular cartridge / rifle combination.
An '06 in a 6lb. rifle with 180 grain bullets will not be an accurate combination for some people for hunting, yet a a 5 lb. rifle chambered in something like a
250 savage will drop any deer (or moose for that matter) at the hands of the same hunter, IF the shot is placed properly.
It all depends on accuracy potential of the whole package, shooter, rifle/cartridge.

There have been tons of paper consumed on this very subject, and when the smoke clears, it all comes down to this:
A properly placed shot with a lighter bullet, traveling at a slower speed will kill cleaner and quicker than a shot coming from a bigger/faster harder kicking
rifle with a marginal shot placement.
Hit him where it counts and you have antlers on the ground and hooves in the air, regardless of bullet, cartridge, etc.
Gut shoot him and he is off and running, even with a .375H&H!
Buy and shoot what you can control and enjoy shooting, not what you are told you need or "what is better or more efficient".
Cat

[Short Round]

Originally Posted by Prdtrgttr

Sheephunter, I am just going off info from Remington's ballistics. Here's a table that compares kinetic energy of a 308 150gr bullet(top), and 7mm-08 140gr bullet, one of the closest bullet matches I could find at their site:

Energy (ft-lbs)

Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Remington® Express® 150 PSP CL 2648 2137 1705 1344 1048 810
Remington® Express® 140 PSP CL 2542 2142 1793 1490 1228 1005

Sounds like many of you like the 7mm 08. Thanks for your input.

You'd be better off comparing bullets with similar Sectional densities rather than bullets with similar weights to get an accurate comparison between the 7-08 and the 308.

The closest equivalent to a 140 grain .284 caliber bullet in a 30 cal is actually a 165 grain bullet (SD of .246 for the 7-08, SD of .248 for the 308)

With those bullets, energy at the muzzle for the .308 is 2683.3, while for the 7-08 it's 2625. Both of those are calculated using Lyman's max loads.

See, a 140 grain bullet is a midweight bullet for the 7mm, while the 150 is a light for caliber bullet in the 30 cal -- so you were kind of looking at apples and oranges.

Anyways, so they're pretty much identical, energy wise, though down range ballistics are a different story. For what it's worth, drop at 300 for the 7mm with a 3 " zero is -2.9, while it's -4.7 for the .308. So you do gain a bit with the 7-08 down range.

For what it's worth, I'd get the 7 if you handload, the .308 if you don't.

That was the point I was making too....you are comparing apples to oranges and there is no way to make a blanket statement that the 7mm is harder hitting that the.308. Anyhow, I'm tired of arguing ballistics on this board with people whoes only experince is the tables that the ammunition companies offer on the net. It's a lot more complex than that. (Sorry, I'm getting grumpy in my old age and that wasn't really meant as anything personal)

Bottom line, they'll both get the job done and it sounds like the 7mm08 is perfectly suited to the type of hunting you do.

[Prdtrgttr]

Yes, you guys make valid points. And Sheephunter, no trouble with your grumpiness, and no need for apologies either, plus, I thought we were discussing, not arguing I've lots of experience with ballistics too FYI,
I don't believe the 7-08 hits harder than the 308, however, my point is, that the two are close enough that the gain of the flatter shooting 7-08 is worth the trade-off of missed kinetic energy.

I don't believe the 7-08 hits harder than the 308, however, my point is, that the two are close enough that the gain of the flatter shooting 7-08 is worth the trade-off of missed kinetic energy.

In the hunting application you described, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Jamie]

Just to stir the pot.

Why not a 30-06?
Lots around, cheap to shoot, lots of choices in bullets.
Seems to me if you are looking for a allround gun that can do anything the 30-06 is the way to go. Especially if you only want to own one gun.
I wish I hadnt sold mine and sometimes I think I should buy another. But then I would be thinking I had to sell my 300 RUM and I like that gun.
The nice thing about the 30-06 is you will find shells anywhere. Dads 280 was pain to find shells for up in northern, Alberta.

Jamie

[Prdtrgttr]

Jamie, you raise a good point, a very good one in fact. I know the 30-06 is a great, great cartridge, it's just that I've never been a big fan of it, other than the simple fact that I don't like the look of the cartridge itself, I guess some guys like blondes, and others like redheads...

Okay, I have to ask.....what part of its look don't you like??

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Okay, I have to ask.....what part of its look don't you like??

i think its an oddball too. ive owned 4 30-06's now in thepast and only one was worth keeping, i dont know why but the 30-06 has a curse on me with not being able to shoot. cant explain it.

I'd never shot a .30-06....well at least hunted with a .30-06 until last fall and I was amply impressed with its performance over a wide variety of conditions. If I had to pick a non magnum calibre that was perfect for all North American game, I wouldn't hesitate to say .30-06.

Pdr.....I think you may be reading a bit too much into those ballitic tables for the 7mm08. It definitely does not have outstanding ballistics. In fact, in the world of 7mm calibres, its a virtual snail. This is not to put the calibre down as I think it's a great calibre for what you described but its ballitics are average and it's not a calibre I would describe as flat shooting. For shots under 250 yards, you'll make them all day long with plenty of energy to get the job done but there's nothing outstanding about 2500-2600fps muzzle velocities when you are talking 7mm calibres.

This is another vote for the .30-06.............

[Papershredder]

Bottom line.....where is your recoil tolerance at? If you can shoot a .300 Mag as well as you can shoot a .270 Win; why bother with the .270? For an all purpose cal. I'd go with the 30-06 as well. At least with the 30-06 you can get into a 180 grain bullet for the bigger game; while sticking to the lighter bullets for deer and range trips.

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by Prdtrgttr

Jamie, you raise a good point, a very good one in fact. I know the 30-06 is a great, great cartridge, it's just that I've never been a big fan of it, other than the simple fact that I don't like the look of the cartridge itself, I guess some guys like blondes, and others like redheads...

I think your last line in the quote above sums it up. "Some like blondes and some like redheads..." I think most often we as hunters and shooters "fall in love" with a particular rifle or cartridge and then we use tables and books and such to justify our infatuation.

You say the 7mm08 is, on paper somewhat better than the .308 but you also say it is just about tas good as a .270. I think that shows you are "smitten" with it. There is nothing wrong with that.

I was all googoo over the Savage 99 in .300 savage that I bought a few years ago and shot a couple head of game with. Then along comes this cute little Win. M100 in .284 and I had to have her. Payed too much for it and some dies but what the heck. Got some brass and 140 gr. Nosler Partitions and will be loading some pills up soon.

Robin in Rocky ( I wouldn't mind having a 7mm08 but I already own a 7X57mauser)

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Robin in Rocky ( I wouldn't mind having a 7mm08 but I already own a 7X57mauser)

The 7/08 is a "Johnny come lately compared to the ol' 7X57!
The 57MM case has spawned as many cartridges as thee '06 case, and by itself is a great round.
The differences between the 7/08, 7X57, and 308 at 500 meters on a steel ram , are very minimal indeed.
In Fred Barnes Book he states that the differences are mere foot pounds.
at 200 yards on an animal the differences are nil!
BUT, who can't love a classy little carbine with irons in 7X57?

Cat

[The Ferguson Rifleman]

Now THAT is one fine rifle gents. Single shot. Full length stock. Iron sights. In short, a man's rifle! Lightening fast in the bush, accuracy to spare! You don't need a repeater when you shoot a rifle like that.

But you got the calibre wrong Cat. It is not a 7x57, only the stinking peasants on this forum would call it that. When a gentleman (like the Ferguson Rifleman) shoots such a rifle, we refer to the calibre as .275 Rigby.

I will be giving a 7 hour lecture in the near future on the subject of sportsman's etiquette and social graces and I shall expect all of you to attend my scholarly writings with your undivided attention!