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  #31  
Old 03-19-2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Poppa View Post
Why does fishing = retention? I have always been a firm believer that the fun is in the catching, not the keeping. I love the challenge of trying to a) Find the fish, and b) Get the fish to bite.

If I can let a fish go to get even bigger for someone else to catch, that's the best thing. I do not understand this mentality of needing to keep fish...
C&R regs can make some lakes produce trophy fish or lots of fish, both of which are really nice to have. Not every lake needs to be a trophy lake though and in fact many if not most of our lakes are not capable of being high quality fisheries even with minimal to no fishing pressure. C&R regs on lakes like this are useless as they will never meet the high standards AEP has set for a fishery to be considered "sustainable" and few people bother to fish these lakes when C&R regs are put in place.
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  #32  
Old 03-20-2019, 12:12 AM
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Well if you think about it PETA has more ammunition if fishing is only catch and release for sport. Then it serves no practical function than to torture animals is how it can easily be viewed.

I think C&R mortality is a bit more than zero. It is quite a bit higher than most people think. If it wasn't fisheries wouldn't factor it into their conservation measurements. You mentioned handling, but that would only be one factor. Other considerations are water temperature, dissolved oxygen, depth fish was caught or recently ascended from, location of impalement, use of bait, bleeding, freezing and more.

I catch an release, but I like eating fish too. I'm more concerned about the current practice of protecting Apex predators while the rest of the pyramid collapses. That's poor management.
Whoever considers that to be "torturing animals" is clearly missing the point. They can't feel pain.. scientific studies have proved that. Fish aren't sentient like humans or mammals.

Other non-consumptive sports also put unneccessary added stress to animals too, such as wildlife photography in many instances.

When handled properly and with proper practices it's next to zero. Its good practice to not fish if the water temp is too high/ D.O. is too low, you don't have a shack on a -30 degree day, etc. You also don't have to fish in 40 FOW or use bait. If I'm catching and releasing I choose to fish with methods that are least harmful to the fish. Of course the odd one will be hooked deeply and won't survive. The average Joe often doesn't take these factors into consideration, and god knows we've all seen frequent poor fish handling skills from most anglers. I beleive the majority of C&R mortality is from poor handling and practices, not the much less frequent unpreventable death like a deeply hooked fish caught without the use of bait.

I like eating fish too but in a province of 4+ million and limited fishable waterbodies, people have to accept that our Fisheries are not your buffet.

Last edited by JareS; 03-20-2019 at 12:36 AM.
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  #33  
Old 03-20-2019, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JareS View Post
Whoever considers that to be "torturing animals" is clearly missing the point. They can't feel pain.. scientific studies have proved that. Fish aren't sentient like humans or mammals.



Other non-consumptive sports also put unneccessary added stress to animals too, such as wildlife photography in many instances.



When handled properly and with proper practices it's next to zero. Its good practice to not fish if the water temp is too high/ D.O. is too low, you don't have a shack on a -30 degree day, etc. You also don't have to fish in 40 FOW or use bait. If I'm catching and releasing I choose to fish with methods that are least harmful to the fish. Of course the odd one will be hooked deeply and won't survive. The average Joe often doesn't take these factors into consideration, and god knows we've all seen frequent poor fish handling skills from most anglers. I beleive the majority of C&R mortality is from poor handling and practices, not the much less frequent unpreventable death like a deeply hooked fish caught without the use of bait.



I like eating fish too but in a province of 4+ million and limited fishable waterbodies, people have to accept that our Fisheries are not your buffet.
This is so far off topic from reg changes but here is the Anti's point of view.

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-...ish-feel-pain/

I dont know for sure, but to me I think it's a little hard to say that fish feel no pain when there is no way to possibly know what a fish does or does not feel or experience when caught. Peta seems to think there is plenty of evidence to refute your claim. As in any area of research there are evidences for and against. As time goes on we often further our understanding and realize how we have been wrong in the past. Same reason catch and release mortality study results can widely range from 0 to 80%.



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  #34  
Old 03-20-2019, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandonkop View Post
This is so far off topic from reg changes but here is the Anti's point of view.

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-...ish-feel-pain/

I dont know for sure, but to me I think it's a little hard to say that fish feel no pain when there is no way to possibly know what a fish does or does not feel or experience when caught. Peta seems to think there is plenty of evidence to refute your claim. As in any area of research there are evidences for and against. As time goes on we often further our understanding and realize how we have been wrong in the past. Same reason catch and release mortality study results can widely range from 0 to 80%.



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This article goes a little more in depth about PETA's claim about behavioural reactions:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/phys.org...vIDuq4A2_vhSeY

The PETA article agrees that fish don't have a neocortex, how humans and mammals consciously feel pain.

The PETA article's main point is that although fish don't feel pain like humans can, they display behavioural actions that makes them think they do. This study casts doubt on their behavioural reactions being a result of conscious pain but instead an unconscious impulse.

Ultimately it can't be concluded that they don't feel pain, but you can conclude that they don't feel pain the same way humans do.
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  #35  
Old 03-20-2019, 12:26 PM
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New regs look good to me! Idk what the issues are haha
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  #36  
Old 03-20-2019, 12:31 PM
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Man, every year this topic goes bananas. Regs time is "venting time"
The changes or even lack there of should be no surprise to anyone on here.

The one comment on Wabaska, it is still 1 pike over 75cm. I wish, like Calling Lake, they would have considered a slot size instead. Given the location and angling pressure that could work there. At least to try it for some time would be nice to see. I would add Calling to that list as well for pike slot size.

I think there is at least one lake in AB that is currently slot for pike. I can't recall offhand so will have to look again. Anyone know of one?
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SNAPFisher View Post
Man, every year this topic goes bananas. Regs time is "venting time"
The changes or even lack there of should be no surprise to anyone on here.

The one comment on Wabaska, it is still 1 pike over 75cm. I wish, like Calling Lake, they would have considered a slot size instead. Given the location and angling pressure that could work there. At least to try it for some time would be nice to see. I would add Calling to that list as well for pike slot size.

I think there is at least one lake in AB that is currently slot for pike. I can't recall offhand so will have to look again. Anyone know of one?
1 over 75cm at south wabasca.
0 retention at North wabasca.
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  #38  
Old 03-20-2019, 04:59 PM
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I wonder if somebody thought about impact of zero limits on Alberta's economy. For example - good few years ago I was looking into buying a boat and spending significant amount of money on it, but since most lakes were changed to zero limits around here it just did not make any sense to me to spend that money on a boat which I could use for catch and release only. Because of zero limits I spent way less money on gear, gas and other fishing related expenses and generally fished only rivers and way less than before.
I possibly will buy a boat only after retiring and moving somewhere where fishing regulations are making more sense ( again spending and supporting some businesses in some other province.).
Granted, I am just a single example, thus it would be interesting if somebody else made similar decisions since zero limits hit lakes and reservoirs in most of Alberta.
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Old 03-20-2019, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
I wonder if somebody thought about impact of zero limits on Alberta's economy. For example - good few years ago I was looking into buying a boat and spending significant amount of money on it, but since most lakes were changed to zero limits around here it just did not make any sense to me to spend that money on a boat which I could use for catch and release only. Because of zero limits I spent way less money on gear, gas and other fishing related expenses and generally fished only rivers and way less than before.
I possibly will buy a boat only after retiring and moving somewhere where fishing regulations are making more sense ( again spending and supporting some businesses in some other province.).
Granted, I am just a single example, thus it would be interesting if somebody else made similar decisions since zero limits hit lakes and reservoirs in most of Alberta.
I think they absolutelty have. If you let people keep all the fish this decade, you'll see a certain percentage of economic increase. The following 90 years out of 100, anglers will have zero reason to fish Alberta's waters, resulting in a massive net loss of revenue.

Fisheries management and conservation is set up for sustainable harvest and populations, not exploiting as much of the resource as you can in the present till it collapses..
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  #40  
Old 03-20-2019, 05:35 PM
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If you let people keep all the fish this decade, you'll see a certain percentage of economic increase. The following 90 years out of 100, anglers will have zero reason to fish Alberta's waters, resulting in a massive net loss of revenue.
See, this ridiculous example is why we can't have reasonable conversation. Why would you mention keeping all the fish? Where this came from?
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  #41  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:01 PM
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See, this ridiculous example is why we can't have reasonable conversation. Why would you mention keeping all the fish? Where this came from?
LOL, speaking metaphorically, not literally.

Maybe you didn't read my entire post. The whole premise of conservation is to preserve a natural resource for long term harvest and sustainablity, not to take more than is sustainable in the short term.

If there were no restrictions and regulations, does anybody seriously think that all the high pressure waterbodies in AB wouldn't be collpased to the point where there are no more fish?
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  #42  
Old 03-20-2019, 06:05 PM
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I think they absolutelty have. If you let people keep all the fish this decade, you'll see a certain percentage of economic increase. The following 90 years out of 100, anglers will have zero reason to fish Alberta's waters, resulting in a massive net loss of revenue.

Fisheries management and conservation is set up for sustainable harvest and populations, not exploiting as much of the resource as you can in the present till it collapses..
People would have lots of reason to fish if this Province would use money from lisences to pay for more fish stocking. Kind of like the rest of North America does. Saskatchewan has less anglers and more lakes, plus less $. Why can they stock more fish than Alberta ??? Other than trout !
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  #43  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:08 PM
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If there were no restrictions and regulations, does anybody seriously think that all the high pressure waterbodies in AB wouldn't be collpased to the point where there are no more fish?
Again, you going for extremes. Who said no regulations or restrictions? Limit of 3 walleye over 50cm and 3 pike over 63cm was very decent regulation and restriction.
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  #44  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:14 PM
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The whole premise of conservation is to preserve a natural resource for long term harvest
Zero limit is opposite of harvest. How long conservation is happening on Crawling valley for example? 30+ years? I will die and I bet it will remain zero limit for walleye lol.
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2019, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
Zero limit is opposite of harvest.
Can't harvest a fish if there's none in the waterbody to catch...


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Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
How long conservation is happening on Crawling valley for example? 30+ years? I will die and I bet it will remain zero limit for walleye lol.
Maybe it has something to do with its proximity to a little town called Calgary. Sometimes the sustainable harvest for a waterbody without it collpasing is zero. Do you predict that the human population and number of anglers in Southern Alberta will be significantly reduced in your lifetime? If not, then I agree with you on your statement that it will be zero retention...
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  #46  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:11 AM
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1 over 75cm at south wabasca.
0 retention at North wabasca.
Very hard to get a boat into south Wabasca ,as the south lake does not have a boat launch . Sure one can get threw in early spring down the river where both lakes are connected in the middle before it gets weeded up . Might be a good trip for a canoe or a 12 ft boat with a kicker.
I know the lake is full of fish ,i just wonder if it is town that wants to keep it for them selfs so they can harvest more fish threw netting. I wonder if they will cancel the June RCMP fishing Derby even tho it was catch and release for the derby .
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2019, 08:46 AM
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Hunting and trapping is retention. Hunting and fishing is the same thing in my mind. You have an opinion and that's fine. I won't go fishing unless there is some incentive to take something home. I have no desire to harm fish otherwise. The mentality you speak of comes from our inner desire to take responsibility for our own food. You release em' and I'll eat em'.
Very well put, thank you and I agree!
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:18 AM
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Can't harvest a fish if there's none in the waterbody to catch...
When people brag about catching and releasing 40-50 walleye a day I beg to differ.
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  #49  
Old 03-21-2019, 09:19 AM
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C&R 95% of the time but it’s nice to have the option to keep a fish here and there exceptionally if it looks like it won’t survive

Personally see benefits to catch and keep as a tool to balance out a body of water. A body of water can only support a certain mass of fish before you see a negative impact on food and oxygen levels. This has a negative impact on health and size along with increasing the risk of summer/winter kill

Anyone who fishes enough remote bodies of water will find one that is loaded with stunted, skinny,and big headed fish. You will know you found a spot that truly sees no pressure lol

Low limits, short seasons and size restrictions to limit angler impact are other effective options used correctly. These tools have been successfully been used in bodies of water that see way more pressure then Alberta lakes.

I don’t believe in setting up waters to be raped but straight C&R is not the only option
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:28 AM
Lowrance Fishburn Lowrance Fishburn is offline
 
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Alberta Fish & Game Association Concerned About
Metis Harvesting Agreement

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE (Edmonton March 20, 2019)… Alberta’s largest conservation group, the Alberta Fish & Game Association (AFGA), is concerned with the signing of the Metis Harvesting Agreement signed on March 12th with the Government of Alberta.

The agreement gives unlimited rights to members of the Métis Nation of Alberta Association to hunt, trap or fish for food at all times of the year.

“We are apprehensive that this agreement opens the door to the unregulated harvesting of Alberta’s wildlife,” said AFGA President Brian Dingreville. “We have concerns when anyone is given the right to take unlimited quantities of fish or game or to disregard seasonal restrictions which are in place to ensure their long-term survival.”

The AFGA is on the side of wildlife and the environs upon which they depend and looks at the big picture when it comes to their survival. Giving anyone the right to harvest unlimited animals including fish year-round could have disastrous consequences.

Although the agreement does mention the monitoring of harvest, it is of concern as to who will be doing said monitoring as the enforcement of existing conservation laws has already been limited by insufficient budgets that are dedicated to that task. With increased allocations, as prescribed in this agreement, the inability to monitor will lead to jeopardizing the sustainability of fish and wildlife.

The Alberta Fish and Game Association is a not-for-profit volunteer organization proud to serve Albertans in the promotion of the wise use of our fish and wildlife resources and the conservation of their habitats. The AFGA has been active since 1908 in working towards these goals and has a province-wide membership of more than 24,000 individuals spread among 80+ Clubs.



- Hmm, looks like i'll be applying for a treaty card then. SMH
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  #51  
Old 03-21-2019, 12:57 PM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by AK47 View Post
I wonder if somebody thought about impact of zero limits on Alberta's economy. For example - good few years ago I was looking into buying a boat and spending significant amount of money on it, but since most lakes were changed to zero limits around here it just did not make any sense to me to spend that money on a boat which I could use for catch and release only. Because of zero limits I spent way less money on gear, gas and other fishing related expenses and generally fished only rivers and way less than before.
I possibly will buy a boat only after retiring and moving somewhere where fishing regulations are making more sense ( again spending and supporting some businesses in some other province.).
Granted, I am just a single example, thus it would be interesting if somebody else made similar decisions since zero limits hit lakes and reservoirs in most of Alberta.
I doubt you’re alone.

I also highly doubt that your choices represent more than a very small minority of potential anglers. If a persons only reason to go fishing is to keep a fish, there are far more practical and economic ways to fill your freezer.

People spend money on fishing if they think they can actually catch fish, for most anglers, catching fish is a direct correlation to having an enjoyable experience. That depends FAR more on having healthy fisheries than it does on the angler’s ability to keep fish. You can’t keep what you can’t catch...
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  #52  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
If a persons only reason to go fishing is to keep a fish,
That is certainly not the only reason but I would like to have an option if I hook into a decent one worth keeping. I had countless trips to lakes where you could keep fish and ended up going home without any for whatever reasons before so it is not like I am taking my limits every fishing trip. I just do not understand this fear mongering that if we set a limit of 2 or 3 walleye over 50 cm in walleye overpopulated lakes that they are going to disappear completely just because of recreational angling. Did we have any examples like that happened before? I doubt. There is other ways of protecting them ( extend no fishing time before and after spawn, have more CO's monitoring the lakes, bait bans, etc.)... but zero limits is just poor management in my opinion. Have couple lakes with zero limits for C&R fans and have more open for people who would like to keep one or couple for fry. Now we have roughly 90% lakes where you can't keep walleye or pike.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JareS View Post
This article goes a little more in depth about PETA's claim about behavioural reactions:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/phys.org...vIDuq4A2_vhSeY

The PETA article agrees that fish don't have a neocortex, how humans and mammals consciously feel pain.

The PETA article's main point is that although fish don't feel pain like humans can, they display behavioural actions that makes them think they do. This study casts doubt on their behavioural reactions being a result of conscious pain but instead an unconscious impulse.

Ultimately it can't be concluded that they don't feel pain, but you can conclude that they don't feel pain the same way humans do.

This Hugh 'JareS guy is about as out to lunch as they come. Fish feel pain, poke em they don't stick around (there are lots of research papers highlighting pain receptors in their brains upon pain stimulation), just because their neurotransmitters fire on different chemical pathways doesn't mean you're not a sadistic turkey. Making any animal fight for it's life by ripping it by the face from its home for no point but your own pleasure is pretty cut and clear logically. Any argument you have otherwise really speaks volumes to your own skewed bias-sis. Perhaps you should focus on bringing whirling disease to some other water sheds, instead of bombarding people who actually have the audacity to respect the animals they harvest.


Lots of people survive car accidents with little to no injury but that doesn't mean people go looking for car accidents... C&R is cruel and so is fishing in general but just doing it to harass the wide-life for your own pleasure I cannot understand...
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:02 PM
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I am wondering what is wrong with having 50% of lakes C&R and 50% where harvest is allowed. You can rotate them every 10-20 years or so thus keeping everybody happy. But now we have extremely unfair situation despite both catch and release and catch and keep fishermen paying same amount of fishing licence.
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Old 03-22-2019, 01:55 AM
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I agree with many of the points here. While I do feel changes need to be made, it is for the fact of our kids and their kids being able to catch fish, not to eat more. I release darn near every fish I've caught but I hunt and do it with the intent on keeping my game. Many people love their fish and I won't discredit them for it, I just don't eat much of it myself. I think of it as evening things out, some keep, some release. I've known people that fed their families hunting and fishing and honestly, I think it is a valuable skill to have, being able to find your own food. Look at is going back to our roots. In a way it's why we fish or camp or hunt isn't it? I think smaller and lower slot limits could help as with a fishing version of the hunter safety program. I've learned things from my own research as fishing went from a hobby to an addiction that I wish I knew from the start, things that if many of us knew from the start we may not have such poor fishing conditions today. I do realize though there are many other things like weather, farmland, invasive species, poor stock or management practices, algae, level drops, on and on and on that contribute to the conditions we have today. I don't remember the slow 90's fishing as well as some of the older people here do, but that's when I started and man that was slow haha. Sadly it appears those days are coming back, my regular lakes have less, and smaller fish. With saying all this, I don't look at retention percentage to decide if I go out or not, but would like to see sustainable populations for the future. I search for that 40" pike still and would like to see the bigger fish get a chance to hit that mark, so I can catch them lol. I know there are some pretty decent ponds/lakes near my city that are either not accessible to the public and/or have zero fish in them. Would love to see them accessible and maybe even a perch stock or something happen to help sustain the growing population of fisherman. I'd like to see fish and game expand on their surveys to not only gain our opinion on which plan to take, but how we think the plan should be formed as well. I don't know all the inner workings of F&G but on the hunting side volunteers make their world go round and if that is what is necessary to improve and open more fishing it's definitely something I'm willing to do. I don't wish to offend, but all of our voices and efforts for the love and future of the sport are what I think will be needed to turn things around and help ensure the not only sustainability but the possibility of that 40 incher one day.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:52 AM
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Ha Ha!
It only sounds like us old timers like to have a shore lunch of what we catch.
All four of my grandkids like to catch but not eat fish.
I all ways have to bring hot dogs for them .
Times have changed.

I am spilt 50/50 on this draw system.
What I do not like, there is a chance I will not be drawn ,but the guy next to me will be allowed to keep 3 walleye.
Can he eat 3 fish for lunch ? No.

I think if they only gave one tag per person,a lot more fishermen could enjoy their catch .
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:35 PM
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Just another reminder of Alberta’s pathetic attempt at conservation.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:44 PM
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I agree that harvesting fish is a good thing. Good on you. But conservation needs to come first. There’s many, many of us who want to fish, and for a variety of reasons. Collapsing and losing fisheries is a bigger insult, more like a crime. For Alberta’s fisheries to be managed properly, even in the ‘first place’, there has to be pretty severe restrictions on how many adult fish any of us can kill each year. Our native trout are endangered, so we can’t keep any of them. So are grayling and sturgeon, if anyone would want to eat them anyway. That leaves stocked trout ponds and a few hundred lakes with walleye and/or pike, perch, whitefish. Of that small number, I suspect less than half, a result of paved roads and good boat launches and campgrounds, absorb most of the pressure. I think the bottom line is that until we accept a way to either restrict the number of folks who can fish a lake in a year, or come up with a way to share a fish between more than one person, we’ll have to deal with not being able to harvest a fish every trip.
Collapsing fisheries is easy. We’ve proved that repeatedly. Keeping fish around for tomorrow is harder.
Wrong, your dead wrong about how to manage fish,we couldn’t manage a goldfish here, look at Saskatchewan they have healthy lakes I’ve been going to one for 24years and the regs hasn’t changed once and to this day you can still catch keep and eat, like for years here we had 10 pike per person who in the hell came up with that one!??was 3 now 1 or 0 somewhere along the line they’re not focused, it’s a laugh, maybe don’t have a stupid size limit 63cm and over is our breeding fish,that we keep full of eggs, Saskatchewan say keep the breeding old stock and take any size fish like it’s common sense
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:54 PM
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Anybody notice Castle and Carbondale rivers closed Aug 31 now? Could of sworn they used to be Oct 31 like the rest of ES1. Not exactly against it with how low its been the last couple years and the increased pressure with the new park. Yet its still open to cutthroat harvest . Would of liked to see it stay open downstream of hwy 507 I loved fishing that stretch in the fall.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:58 PM
deercamp deercamp is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Edmonton
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Saskatchewan has 94,000 fish-bearing lakes,
with about 184,000 licensed anglers,
or 1.9 anglers per lake.

Alberta has only 800 lakes with fish,
but 250,000 licenced anglers, or
312 anglers per lake.

This right here explains it all. Couple that with FN netting and you have nothing left.

No management solution in the world can compete with those ratios.

Last edited by deercamp; 03-24-2019 at 07:04 PM.
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