ideas: new Cdn. Rangers rifle?

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Really, for what they do, what's wrong with the old one ? And the FN was about the unhandiest piece of **** any reasonable person would discard as soon as possible.

Grizz

However I would love to have one for my collection.

I actually enjoyed shooting it. Not carrying it.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by twofifty

What performance criteria do you believe a Ranger's new rifle ought to meet?
If you were putting this new rifle out for tender, how would you write these up?

So far we've got:

- min. of 30 caliber,
- bolt action,
- weather resistant stock,
- cold climate proven (arctic & boreal),
- practical for hunting.

From what I've read, they would have to go with the .308 that the CF uses, so in theory, the 30 caliber round has already been identified. It's just as well I guess, as the .308 has a little better ballistics than the old .303, so it would be considered a bit of an upgrade for the Rangers.

As for all your other points, I have no arctic experience or knowledge, so I have no idea which bolt action would best fit the bill for those conditions.

What's the most common bolt action the local hunters use?

Mac

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher

Isn't there a company in Australia making knock offs? I wonder if those would be of sufficient quality to meet military specifications. Better yet, maybe Savage could expand the Lakefield plant to make No 4s.

ARG

Yes there is. Australian International Arms. Can't seem to find their websight, but Marstar sells them and has a bit of a write up on them. Also what I have read about them from other sights is they are well made.

http://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/produc...roductid=74823

Australian International Arms' No.4 mk.IV rifle blends the best features of the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) rifles from which it is a direct descendant with the latest technological advancements in engineering and manufacturing techniques. The result is an accurate, rugged, and reliable rifle built to withstand the higher pressures generated by modern 7.62mm NATO ball ammunition - yet this unique rifle is equipped with the fastest cycling military type bolt action around and fitted with a hand-rubbed oil-finished solid teak stock!

Like all the rifles in the M10 series, the No.4 mk.IV incorporates a long list of standard features, improvements, and refinements over the venerable SMLE rifle while retaining its superb balance, reliability, and lightning quick Lee Enfield action shooters throughout the commonwealth know and love. Chrome-lined free-floating target-crowned barrels, easily detachable ten round box magazine, use of widely available 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) ammunition, factory setup for optional steel weaver scope rail, forged receiver 1.5x thicker than the original, and Brewer locking collar (Savage) headspacing system are a few of the many design enhancements which make the M10 rifle a Lee Enfield for the 21st century.

The AIA No.4 mk.IV has a non-glare parkerized finish and comes fitted with a 'full military' style furniture made from solid teak! The barrel bands are the early hinged type, which are much easier to remove and replace than the 'tension' type, making the No.4 mk.IV easy to disassemble. Every stock is hand fitted and topped with a hand-rubbed tru-oil(tm) finish. The result is a rifle that is every bit as eye-appealing as it is accurate: truly a modern military classic!

and http://world.guns.ru/civil/austr/aia-m10-e.html

The M10 line of bolt action rifles was developed in Australia by Australian International Arms Pty, a small company dedicated to produce quality rifles for civilian use. Initial intent was to produce bolt-action rifle with high capacity, detachable magazines. Starting with time-proven design of the famous SMLE No.4 Mk.2 rifles of British origin, AIA engineers developed new and improved version of the venerable "Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield". The AIA rifles feature all-new components machined from modern steel and quality wood. First prototypes of the AIA improved No.4 mk.2 rifles appeared in 1998-99, and since then company has produced several versions of the basic design, of which most notable are M10 rifles and carbines, chambered for popular 7.62x39 M43 Russian and 7.62x51 NATO / .308 Win ammunition. The 5.56x45mm / .223 Rem version of the same design was planned but apparently is still not in production at this time.

AIA M10 rifles are manually operated, bolt action rifles with rotary bolt of Lee-Enfield type. Bolt design is improved by utilizing only one size of non-rotating bolt head (as opposed to original design that relied on several sizes of bolt heads to maintain proper headspace on different rifles). Bolt is locked into newly manufactured receiver using dual locking lugs at the rear of the bolt. Feed is from detachable box magazines, and, in 7.62x39 version, M10A1 / M10A2 rifles will accept high capacity AK / AKM type magazines holding 20, 30 or even 40 (RPK-type) rounds. Manual safety is of lee-Enfield type, located on the left side of the receiver. Standard sights include L-shaped flip-up diopter rear sight, adjustable for windage and set for 100 / 300 (M10A 7.62x39) or 200 / 400 (M10B 7.62x51) meters range. Receivers are pre-machined to accept Picatinny type rail which is used to install various telescope sights. Stocks are made from teak timber, in variety of shapes and sizes.

[Unregistered user]

AIA I believe went titters due to poor Q.C. They need Savage rifles, rough conditions don't lend themselves to longevity regardless of brand so may as well be "Cheap and nasty". Besides, Harper's up their partying with them, I'm sure the Rangers will know better than anyone else what's best for their needs.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

However I would love to have one for my collection.

I actually enjoyed shooting it. Not carrying it.

Lucky enough to have a couple in my collection, but the government won't let me shoot them.

Grizz

[Iron Brew]

Originally Posted by RatFink

If I'm not mistaken, they did evaluate the Gunsite Scout but GoC regulations require it to be built in Canada or something so they wanted Ruger to hand over the blue prints to Colt Canada and Ruger basically told them to shove it.
There was also a prototype CZ that was trialled that looked amazing. There were pictures of it on CGN but I can't find them right now.

I saw an article that stated every company that has been approached has said no, due to the above mentioned colt Canada issue. What I don't understand is why they can't just get the old no. 4 blueprints out, and I believe one of the Canadian armouries had done a .308 conversion back on the fifties.

Now, an accurate version of a number 5 in .308, complete with stripper clip ears... I'd want that.

[Iron Brew]

This is older than the article I read.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...apon-purchase/

In August I blogged that the Canadian military was going up upgrade the WWII-era weapons used by the Canadian Rangers, Canada’s Arctic militia force. These plans have been put on hold because gun companies around the world refused to hand over technical specifications to Colt Canada. The Defense Department selected Colt Canada as the manufacturer for the 10,000 rifles and 10,000 pistols they plan to buy and required any company who submitted a weapon for consideration to hand over all the technical specifications them. The Ottawa Citizen reports …

The government then hastily retreated, canceling its request to the companies for information about prices and availability.

In an email the Defence Department confirmed that it asked Public Works to cancel the request “as a result of questions, and requests for clarification, from industry.”

The department is now re-evaluating its procurement strategy.

According to the DND email, its small arms project office is now “focusing efforts on clarifying the procurement strategy with the intent to facilitate future communication with industry.”

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Really, for what they do, what's wrong with the old one ? And the FN was about the unhandiest piece of **** any reasonable person would discard as soon as possible.

Grizz

I loved mine.
It was heavy... but I found it a pleasure to shoot and not that much of a chore for a healthy young buck... unless he had shoulders like a trout and bot strings for arms..

I wish I had one now....sigh.


The SMG on the other hand....

[Ronan_357]

There was an article in one of the gun mags awhile back stating the change to a different rifle came from the 303 Brit being an obsolete cartridge, the author also mentioned the possible replacement would be an ar varient chambered in 308.
I'm guessing he never spent much time in the freezing cold.

[Big Daddy Badger]

Originally Posted by Iron Brew

I saw an article that stated every company that has been approached has said no, due to the above mentioned colt Canada issue. What I don't understand is why they can't just get the old no. 4 blueprints out, and I believe one of the Canadian armouries had done a .308 conversion back on the fifties.

Now, an accurate version of a number 5 in .308, complete with stripper clip ears... I'd want that.

They did convert some....so did Australia.

[Iron Brew]

Radical thought here... Why not use the enfield action, but go to only one bolt head to reduce parts required. Then, thread for a barrel nut a-la savage to allow adjustment of head spacing. This should not exactly be hard...

I did hear that trained Canadian (and British) soldiers with Lee Enfields outshot the (early) FN users in the long haul due to a combination of rapid loading (stripper clips), reliability and training. I'm guessing they were as reluctant to move to the FN as I was to move from the C1 to the C7. Got out before it was actually foisted on me.

[303carbine]

I had one of the M10 Australian made Enfields in 308, very accurate, very heavy. I am not sure if they would be any better than the No4 rifles the Rangers are using already.
What I would like to see is Longbranch opening back up and making the "new" No4Mk1 for the Rangers keeping it all in house.

[Gray Wolf]

And on a related, but slightly side topic, why the hell are the Rangers (who operate in the high north) issued uniforms, in of all things, dark olive green, or in some cases, bright red hoodies and 'jungle camo' pants?!






My hat is off to the Rangers. But really ... I think we treat them like dirt.

[twofifty]

climate change?

[RatFink]

Jeez they need some new CADPAT in winter pattern and a lighter brown for when they aren't in snow (if that ever happens)

[ghostguy6]

Why not issue them the old C3A1's? Already chambered in .308 and meets military specs. The armorers should have thorough knowledge on them and I'd imagine the DND has a surplus of the part for them sitting around already.

[Matt L.]

The only thing about the C3 that is suitable for the Rangers is the action. You'd have to completely rebuild the rifle. Might as well go new.

[twofifty]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

Why not issue them the old C3A1's? Already chambered in .308 and meets military specs. The armorers should have thorough knowledge on them and I'd imagine the DND has a surplus of the part for them sitting around already.

Aren't these C3 sniper rifles very heavy? +15#
Heavy would not be optimal for the observe and report mission.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

Why not issue them the old C3A1's? Already chambered in .308 and meets military specs. The armorers should have thorough knowledge on them and I'd imagine the DND has a surplus of the part for them sitting around already.

C3A1:

The Rangers don't need a heavy barreled sniper rifle. I'm sure if that was what they were offered as a replacement, they would choose to keep their old Enfields ... and I wouldn't blame them.

Mac

[philthygeezer]

IMO they should talk to FN about using a special SPR with a 22" sporter weight barrel in .308 and detachable magazine in an arctic camo ambidextrous McMillan sporter stock.

Would the Model 70 action in a McMillan stock be rugged and reliable enough?

[the_longwalker]

Originally Posted by rwm1273

I fully agree. If anything, modernize it somewhat with better sights. Maybe even rechamber it with a more common cartridge such as a 308.

We did. Well, Canada and the UK got Parker Hale to do the conversions for a sniper and a battle rifle in .308

The sniper rifles are still coveted by long range match shooters.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Lucky enough to have a couple in my collection, but the government won't let me shoot them.

Grizz

I missed out on the grandfathering of prohibs. Too bad you can`t shoot them.

[rwm1273]

Originally Posted by Ronan_357

There was an article in one of the gun mags awhile back stating the change to a different rifle came from the 303 Brit being an obsolete cartridge, the author also mentioned the possible replacement would be an ar varient chambered in 308.
I'm guessing he never spent much time in the freezing cold.

With an AR type rifle.

[Selkirk]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/12/


Personally, I like the previously suggested Ruger M77 'Gunsite Scout' ^ (.308), as a new rifle for the Rangers.

I'm guessing it would work just fine in the arctic, and serve the Rangers well.

Mac

[riden]

Originally Posted by RatFink

If I'm not mistaken, they did evaluate the Gunsite Scout but GoC regulations require it to be built in Canada or something so they wanted Ruger to hand over the blue prints to Colt Canada and Ruger basically told them to shove it.
There was also a prototype CZ that was trialled that looked amazing. There were pictures of it on CGN but I can't find them right now.

Yes something like that happened. The Scout won the tender, but they refused to release the blue prints. Turns out the CF aren't that big a fish.

[Okotokian]

Let's consider the PURPOSE of this rifle. If I'm fighting an enemy on barren flat ice with no cover I want the flattest, farthest shooting rifle possible. Weight doesn't matter. These guys are on sleds, not hiking up mountains. But let's be honest. Nobody expects the Rangers to engage a large group of Russian paratroopers who might suddenly show up. These guys are there merely to "show the flag", so we can say we have a permanent "military" presence in the north.. Any firearm they have is only for polar bear protection, or a little hunting. Give them a durable, mid-weight bolt action 30-06 or .308 and buy a million rounds of ammo, cheap.

[twofifty]

Sorry Oko, but I think weight matters even though the Rangers use skidoos. At some point they might need to stash the skidoo to approach quietly. In that case, manoeuvrability is important.

I see the rifle as something more of a self-defence & hunting tool, and potentially a small ambush rifle. In each of those cases, manoeuvrability is king.

I like the size of the proposed Ruger Scout, but can't help but wonder about it's weight, esp. with the rail. Perhaps a rail just large enough to fit a night-vision scope would suffice.

Wouldn't it also help if the rifle sling could be fitted through the stock in such a way that the rifle can easily be carried flat against the back? Lots of older Euro war rifles had that feature. Would be nice to have the option to sling off the swivels or through the stock.

That Ruger Scout mag seems awfully large and boxy and snaggy if carrying in a skidoo scabbard. It needs well radiused edges.


Btw, how resistant to cold fracturing are modern polymers?

[fish gunner]

Originally Posted by chuck

A Ruger M77 MK II with their factory issue NECG banded front sight, somebody's aperture/peep rear sight. 21" barrel, a McMillan stock, and if they have to their 10rnd DBM unit.

Gee that was hard.

Plastic stock bad at -50.

[Hunter1602]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Let's consider the PURPOSE of this rifle. If I'm fighting an enemy on barren flat ice with no cover I want the flattest, farthest shooting rifle possible. Weight doesn't matter. These guys are on sleds, not hiking up mountains. But let's be honest. Nobody expects the Rangers to engage a large group of Russian paratroopers who might suddenly show up. These guys are there merely to "show the flag", so we can say we have a permanent "military" presence in the north.. Any firearm they have is only for polar bear protection, or a little hunting. Give them a durable, mid-weight bolt action 30-06 or .308 and buy a million rounds of ammo, cheap.

I agree 100%

[Dick284]

The must be made in Canada part is the undoing of this whole issue! Who is going to give up production rights to a competitors subsidiary?

They might as well dust off the Longbranch prints then!

As an aside the Ruger receivers are investment cast, that there is the biggest reason I see why no one other than Ruger would build those rifles.