Changes to Sheep Hunting Regulations

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

That would only be true if bowhunters had the same success rate !

on sheep i suspect it would be awful close. pretty well all of the sheep that guys i know have killed were well within bowrange. mine was at 23 yards...wish i had my bow instead. ive really never seen sheep run.

im not sure how, but someone will get offended by this..... but i dont care...its what ive experienced. sheep arent that bright. i guess near roads they may get educated...i dont really know. i figured the surest way to kill one was get well away from roads. but back in the hills aways, they are very easy to get close to. they just stand there looking at you trying to figure you out. wolves they run from if they are within a mile, but people...not so much. the sheep i walked up to in the wilmore did, and so have hundreds in k-country. the hardest part of killing a sheep in my opinion is finding a legal one.

Originally Posted by avb3

Sheep, the problem is that in some areas of Alberta, virtually no sheep will ever reach full curl, at least according to some of the biologists I've talked to. Is your information different?

I'd say virtually no is an exageration...some for sure though. I'm not advocating the idea....just pointing out how it compares to a draw. I'd rather that SRD managed sheep rather than hunters. That's what their own data indicates needs to be done.

[steve]

Talking with SRD the thought was brought up of full curl zones. Bouncing back a fourth between 4/5's and full. To slow down harvest and let mature ram numbers rebuild, then down to 4/5's for season or to.

[spurly]

In the 400 402 303 area the best way to protect the rams is to take them off of the subsistance list.We have lost 5 rams in the last 3 weeks, within the 1/2 mile corridor on HW#3.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

While the dream of big rams on every hill is a nice one, the draws in the U.S. sure haven't had those results. There are a few primes areas in Montana for sure but look at the info 209 posted from Wyoming.....they aren't killing big rams.....and draws are once in a lifetime if at all. The data I've seen just doesn't support a province wide draw. Apply for Cadomin if you want a Suffield type opportunity for sheep. It already exists.

looked at the info. montana has better genetics for sure, so bigger sheep. and if you remember what i posted, never have i said a province wide draw is the answer. as far as cadomin, i havent applied there either. sitting on a fence praying isnt my idea of fun. also havent applied for suffield...same thing. besides...i could never draw cadomin....at least not until you invite me for supper.

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Your absolutely right.....! Hunting opportunity would be the same!!, we know that could be scary in some area's for harvest opportunity.

For sure.

=ishootbambi;1246911]looked at the info. montana has better genetics for sure, so bigger sheep.

I don't believe that. I'd say it has a lot more to do with environmental factors.

Originally Posted by steve

Talking with SRD the thought was brought up of full curl zones. Bouncing back a fourth between 4/5's and full. To slow down harvest and let mature ram numbers rebuild, then down to 4/5's for season or to.

Glad to hear they are considering some WMU specific management and are leaving options open to increase opportunity when populations warrant. I could actually live with this idea in the short term while they address the real management issues.

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Glad to hear they are considering some WMU specific management and are leaving options open to increase opportunity when populations warrant. I could actually live with this idea in the short term while they address the real management issues.

I told them this was the only acceptable change I have heard so far. But it was one of the three or four options being thrown around.

Originally Posted by steve

I told them this was the only acceptable change I have heard so far. But it was one of the three or four options being thrown around.

Kind of but not really. There was only talk of the province being broken into three managemment zones, not WMU specific management. There's was no talk of this being a temporary solution either while the real management issues are addressed.

[spurly]

Full curl on both sides of highway 3 would be a help for sure as some of the rams in 400 cross the highway to breed in a 4/5 zone, and get hammered.
In the Pass a large % of the rams get killed in the last 3-4 days of the season, as they are moving to the breeding range. It might **** people off, but an adjustment to the close date would save a few rams in this area, which typically harvests aprox 15-19 rams per season, for a very small area.
we lose a few rams to vehicle colision each year as well as our wolf, and cougar population eating very well.We need change, its just, that it needs to be studied better to be done on either a zone by zone or area specific plan. a shot in the dark by srd is not what we need right now.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'd rather that SRD managed sheep rather than hunters..

ive said this before and no one has answered. how do you figure that hunters arent a big factor in sheep management? talk about mule deer management and its all about how many antlered vs antlerless tags are issued. same as antelope. hunters are a very very big consideration in managing any species...sheep included. of course there is more to it, like predators, subsistence slaughter, and habitat issues, but please explain how controlling hunter numbers isnt managing.....

[steve]

I cant encourage you guys enough to take five minutes and fire off a few emails. Stating questions and concerns. If it would happen to go to draw, it could go from a 2 year wait to a 12 year wait in a blink of an eye. Think of the rare AB grizzly.




ron.bjorge@gov.ab.ca

rick.blackwood@gov.ab.ca

SRD.minister@gov.ab.ca

peace.river@assembly.ab.ca

srd.infocent@gov.ab.ca

Calgary.Lougheed@assembly.ab.ca

pelong@telus.net

james.allen@gov.ab.ca

Rob.Corrigan@gov.ab.ca

[steve]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Kind of but not really. There was only talk of the province being broken into three managemment zones, not WMU specific management. There's was no talk of this being a temporary solution either while the real management issues are addressed.

Yes. South, central and north. I can understand this one at least. If there is hard facts that say, the north is struggling. Change to full curl for 3 years, then reassess. Everything looks good? Back to 4/5s. Apparently the real mangement issues are being adressed, with encouragement to hunt wolves (electronic calls), changes to CMA's, and work to let lightning strikes burn naturally.

[spurly]

It would be interesting to know the stats province wide, for kills in the last week.If it saves sheep, I would rather see adjustments to season closure than draw.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by spurly

It would be interesting to know the stats province wide, for kills in the last week.If it saves sheep, I would rather see adjustments to season closure than draw.

doesnt that seem like a band aid fix? of course some rams are shot on the edge of sanctuaries. those safe havens are the only places where rams are getting the chance to grow up. i think most sheep hunters already know that to get a big ram, your best bet is to park along a boundary and hope. saving the sanctuary rams really would be wasting them by some reasoning. they would then die of old age and hunters would never have a chance at them. i think the big question is how to increase the number of mature rams across the entire range of sheep. it seems the very very low number of mature rams surviving hunting seasons in open areas is the concern.....at least thats what im reading.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by steve

SRD Seems to be very concerned about the horn size study, showing a decrease in length and mass. If that study can be trusted? I don't know.

I have heard that Age is Increasing while horn size is decreasing, thus the concern that hunting may be a factor, if you believe in Coltman's flawed theory.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

They mentioned decreasing age to me as well. Apparently all that data came from registered rams although I'm not sure how accurate that data is either.

As I mentioned above. I certainly have age accuracy concerns. We've seen the proof posted on many threads where rams are registered as being older or younger than they are.


I also heard that the top bio's at F&W are buying into Coltman's theory, now accepting it as fact, while ignoring the papers that dispute and disprove the theory. That's a dangerous direction for scientists to take. They should be looking at all the data on this theory.

There is also a recognition that Habitat and herd vigor play a part in Horn growth. But this is not getting the same weight as Trophy Hunter caused horn size decline.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

if thats what they are trying to do, then full curl restriction doesnt work and you already know why. a lot of rams never meet that definition. i suspect an even higher percentage in the wilmore where they grow so slow. most arent even legal until 7 1/2 and id guess a pretty high number would die of old age with lamb tips and not make full.

Did you forget to fix your post?






And Potty, How would an archery season save Rams from being harvested in the rifle season? Are you saying that a Bowhunting season reduces Rifle season's success on living animals? Does this hold true for Mule deer as well?

[spurly]

In the area I live and hunt, the last week of the season accounts for about 30% of the area harvest, it has been this way for ever.Maybe it needs to be area specific. we are not hunting sancuary rams, we are hunting rams that are staging for the rut, their movements are well known, and hunted accordingly. we may be the only part of the province with this situation, its only a suggestion. we need to explore all avenues.At the moment any and all are band aid solutions, until they find one that works.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by spurly

It would be interesting to know the stats province wide, for kills in the last week.If it saves sheep, I would rather see adjustments to season closure than draw.

Would it really change anything? I'm betting more sheep get killed in the last week because more guys are out there. Move the date up a week and I'd be amazed if the numbers changed. I for sure could be wrong but I don't think so.

[Justin.C]

I am not ready to make any change as of yet. What and were is there a problem????? You all keep throwing ideas out there but there is no real problem. Until we are supported with factual info there is none. Theoretical info is not facts. So the guys that WB was referring to should have no impact on anything as he has no real facts. As for this year or last years counts of course our numbers may be down as we had a winter that wiped out half our deer and antelope herds. So what. Numbers will bounce back as they alway have. Still think no changes are needed unless facts stated to support we need to.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

ive said this before and no one has answered. how do you figure that hunters arent a big factor in sheep management? talk about mule deer management and its all about how many antlered vs antlerless tags are issued. same as antelope. hunters are a very very big consideration in managing any species...sheep included. of course there is more to it, like predators, subsistence slaughter, and habitat issues, but please explain how controlling hunter numbers isnt managing.....

Their own study and the resulting numbers show that hunters aren't the factor.

[steve]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

I have heard that Age is Increasing while horn size is decreasing, thus the concern that hunting may be a factor, if you believe in Coltman's flawed theory.







As I mentioned above. I certainly have age accuracy concerns. We've seen the proof posted on many threads where rams are registered as being older or younger than they are.


I also heard that the top bio's at F&W are buying into Coltman's theory, now accepting it as fact, while ignoring the papers that dispute and disprove the theory. That's a dangerous direction for scientists to take. They should be looking at all the data on this theory.

There is also a recognition that Habitat and herd vigor play a part in Horn growth. But this is not getting the same weight as Trophy Hunter caused horn size decline.







Did you forget to fix your post?






And Potty, How would an archery season save Rams from being harvested in the rifle season? Are you saying that a Bowhunting season reduces Rifle season's success on living animals? Does this hold true for Mule deer as well?

Yes a increase in age while decrease in horn size is what I was told.

Why are sheep the only animal I am aware of where "score" becomes a management factor?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Did you forget to fix your post?






?

fix what....i believe its accurate.

Originally Posted by spurly

In the area I live and hunt, the last week of the season accounts for about 30% of the area harvest, it has been this way for ever.Maybe it needs to be area specific. we are not hunting sancuary rams, we are hunting rams that are staging for the rut, their movements are well known, and hunted accordingly. we may be the only part of the province with this situation, its only a suggestion. we need to explore all avenues.At the moment any and all are band aid solutions, until they find one that works.

why do you think they get shot during the last week then? maybe because they come out of BC? for an albertan, that would certainly be an off limits area....a sanctuary. considering that many come from the mine site, they are in a sanctuary on that side of the border as well.

[steve]

Originally Posted by Justin.C

I am not ready to make any change as of yet. What and were is there a problem????? You all keep throwing ideas out there but there is no real problem. Until we are supported with factual info there is none. Theoretical info is not facts. So the guys that WB was referring to should have no impact on anything as he has no real facts. As for this year or last years counts of course our numbers may be down as we had a winter that wiped out half our deer and antelope herds. So what. Numbers will bounce back as they alway have. Still think no changes are needed unless facts stated to support we need to.

Their info (if its acuurate or not) shows a decrease in horn size. The results from the province wide survey coming out will show a decrease in numbers. Thats is your own opinion that it is just a "hard winter" and they will bounce back.

SRD's number do and will show a problem, whether its real. Or is it what they want it to show?

Right now they are looking for a solution.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by steve

Their info (if its acuurate or not) shows a decrease in horn size. .

no, coltmans info says that. the last reports from srd which were the result of all registrations over 40 years showed the opposite....horn base size was going up. i have to wonder why the opposing stats in the last couple years?

[steve]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

no, coltmans info says that. the last reports from srd which were the result of all registrations over 40 years showed the opposite....horn base size was going up. i have to wonder why the opposing stats in the last couple years?

I should have worded that differently. The info that is influencing them and they are using shows.....

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by steve

I should have worded that differently. The info that is influencing them and they are using shows.....

i think thats my biggest concern here. their own stats based on their own registration info says one thing, while coltman is saying the opposite. i really have to wonder why they are trusting an outside source when they already have the facts? this smells very much like a political scheme, and not a solution for hunting at all......

[spurly]

Bambi these are not sanctuary rams, the odd one comes out of BC, and from the mines, these are wild rams that simply make themselves more visible as the move to the ewe or breeding range.I have lived here for 53 years, and hunted sheep for the better part of it.If they didn't get killed in the last week, they might make it till next year. This may be the only area in alberta that this happens.not sure, just explaining the thoughts on my area, and wondering if it occurs elsewhere in the province. is all.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

no, coltmans info says that. the last reports from srd which were the result of all registrations over 40 years showed the opposite....horn base size was going up. i have to wonder why the opposing stats in the last couple years?

Where have you gotten this SRD information from the past 40 years, I'd be interested in seeing that.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by SLH

Where have you gotten this SRD information from the past 40 years, I'd be interested in seeing that.

it was printed in the article "sacrificial ram" in canadian geopgraphic. im not sure but i think WB posted a link a few pages back. going from memory, it said that province wide, horn size had increased half an inch, and that sheep north of the bow averaged 5/8 smaller than sheep to the south.