Marie Lake Injustice

Smokey · #1 08-20-2007, 12:02 PM

For the life of me, I can not comprehend the hole Marie Lake thing, and was hoping for some insight. What is the plan of the oil companies to do with this lake, and why are is this government going to allow the destruction of one of our most valuable resources, water? I may be unknowledgeable about what is going on, but why are they doing seismic testing on this lake. Is it not bad enough that we rape our pristine wilderness for money as it is, and now they want to do damage to a lake. Is there not more than enough oil sands up north without having to stoop to this level of destruction. I am no where being a tree hugger, please enlighten me!

Penner · #2 08-20-2007, 01:24 PM

Well that makes two of us Smokey. I don't get it either.

Most everyone involved with the Marie Lake issue knows 99.9% for sure that there is a large oil reserve lying directly beneath the lake. However, the provincial government will not allow any exploration unless you can prove it 100.0% for certain. Thus the need for the seismic tests to prove it 100%.

The seismic testing they are going to conduct on Marie Lake will take place on the lake itself. They will utilize boats that tow air cannons which will detonate a compressed air charge just below the lakes surface causing a loud bang. The loud bang will create sound waves that will bounce off the bottom of the lake back to the measuring instruments and depending how it bounces back tells them what’s below the lake. The best part is that this loud bang will exceed +200db (decibels) and they plan to discharge the cannons over +10,000 times all over the lake and will take a month or two to complete depending on weather, etc. By the way a jet airplane at full throttle goes in the neighbour hood of 140db (decibels) and humans can begin to experience significant hearing loss at around 100db (decibels). Internal organs can be damaged at 185db (decibels).

I wonder how the fish will make out?

According to Minster Ted Mortron as per his response to me in a letter “there is little to no risk to the fish as similar seismic tests on other lakes in Alberta showed very little fish mortality”. What he fails to realize is that the magnitude of those other tests was not even close to the magnitude or scale of testing that is going to occur on Marie Lake Or that a separate published government report even stated that there was “fish mortally experienced during air cannon seismic testing” on a lake in Alberta. Or that the US Navy Seals specify that their divers are to be at a minimum of 2.0km away for the point source of similar seismic tests that occur out on the oceans.

The oil company performing the testing and eventually trying to extract the oil from beneath Marie Lake (OSUM Corp.) plan to construct some type of horizontal cavern(s) roughly 0.5km beneath the lake and then extract the oil from the cavern’s utilizing SAGD type technology to bring the oil to the surface to be upgraded and then shipped down the pipeline. OSUM Corp is a brand new company all privately funded and the proposed “cavern” method technology has never been used in Alberta. It appears that our current Government has little concern for this.

One could anticipate an oil facility(ies) similar to those around Bourque Lake. Should make for a pleasant outdoor experience, right?

Again it appears that Minster Ted Mortron or Premier Ed Stelmach for that matter have no concerns about this either even though the MLA for Bonnyville/Cold Lake Dennis Ducharme wants this all stopped now. All ignored.

There is a reason why Imperial Oiland Husky Oil did not purchase the oil leases rights under or around Marie Lake. Steady Eddy and OSUM Corp. are in for a battle if they go through with this.

For now writing a letter or calling the Premier directly voicing your opposition to this is the best approach. It’s not too late. Rumour has it that legal representation and 3rd party independent environmental research company has been hired by a few of the local residents and appropriate action is being considered. Also being considered , access being denied to the lake for all non-recreational boats and vehicles (there are only real 4 boat launches on the lake and you need to cross privately owned land for each launch).

SNAPFisher · #3 08-20-2007, 02:24 PM

Make that 3 of us.

Thanks for the thoughtful post back Penner. That is interesting what you are saying about just the sheer number of tests. I did the same as you and wrote Stelmach, Morton, Ducharme and others. I'm going to continue the dialogue and write again with similar line of reasoning.

Regards.

steveo10 · #4 08-20-2007, 05:02 PM

I was talkin to a guy that stays at a father-in-laws cabin there. He said the sesimic shots will effect everything 300ft of the shot. Imagine what its gonna do to the fish. If you stick from sound waves below the water its suppose to screw up the seismic?

Underneath the lake is suppose to be 1 of the biggest finds of bitumen? 8B$?
Funny thing about this situation is the 1/2 of the ppl on the lake is in the oilpatch and would jump on the project in a heartbeat

Smokey · #5 08-20-2007, 08:00 PM

I am going to write a letter to Morton asking that during those seismic tests that he should demonstrate that it is safe for all the wildlife and fish in Marie Lake by swimming in the lake 100 meters from the where the tests occur. Then I may believe him that their is little concern for the fish and birds. I am not normally one to divulge my political opinions online, but I gotta say that with this Moronic/ or Mortonic scheme to extract oil from underneath this lake is enough for me to vote for someone else in the next election. It just scares me who to vote for. Why do the have get the oil from there, is there not enough other oil reserves? I am baffled. I guess when greed comes into the picture these politicians and oil companies are concerned with their fat lined pockets. I just hope that one day my kids can fish in this province.

Bear Ballz · #6 08-20-2007, 08:06 PM

Underneath the lake is suppose to be 1 of the biggest finds of bitumen? 8B$?
Funny thing about this situation is the 1/2 of the ppl on the lake is in the oilpatch and would jump on the project in a heartbeat[/QUOTE]

It's definately a catch 22, I hate to see another piece of Alberta destroyed but that crap under the lake keeps a roof over my families head as well.

Smokey · #7 08-20-2007, 08:23 PM

Well the oil patch my be responsible for the standard of living we possess, but there is more than enough oil out there in the oil sands to continue the standard of living we enjoy or could enjoy. Heck we can't get enough workers here for the projects that are planned, why continue with this breakneck pace of development. My last point is what kind of life are our kids going to enjoy in 40 years when are water is polluted and our air quality is compromised. Lets keep driving our jacked up 4x4's to the grocery store. (I am speaking personally)

Bear Ballz · #8 08-20-2007, 08:29 PM

I here yah Smokey, no matter how you look at it... it's still a kick in the nuts.

Dr. Fish · #9 08-20-2007, 09:04 PM

This whole seismic testing thing is unreal, were are the environmental groups, were are the enraged people of the area standing up for the environment. Why will no one in power do anything. Oh yeah because no one ****ing cares and its only a lake full of fresh water and fish. This whole oil boom really shows what our governments main concerns are, and its sure not our environment or well being, there all a bunch of oil *****s. Makes me want to head for greener feilds or puke.

Penner · #10 08-20-2007, 09:35 PM

My biggest worry is that if they actually go ahead with the oil facilities on Marie Lake it will set precedence and all other lakes in Alberta will be at risk. It will be like opening pandora's box. It makes me sick just thinking about it.

steveo10 · #11 08-21-2007, 12:08 AM

New rumors are that the MLA is gettin paid off and Stalmach is backin off b/c it has to do with making AB rich. Remember they are just rumors that i keep hearing.

Ps i work in the oil patch and also drive my lifted truck to the grocrey and back

Reeves1 · #12 08-21-2007, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Heck we can't get enough workers here for the projects that are planned

I've been sending resume's up to northern AB since the mid 80s. Only had one call and they wanted me to stay in a camp for weeks at a time & it was at a very poor wage, for someone with my experience and age.
I have always been a very hard worker, like working 100+ hours/week.
Over 20 years on excavators alone. Grew up on/with my Dads const. co.

Yet I hear all the time about worker shortage & about how they bring in people from Timbucktoo.

Makes me scratch my head......

y67 · #13 09-03-2007, 09:23 AM

Seismic is a pretty routine thing that's been done on hundreds of Lakes across Canada and the US... Food for thought.

bearbait · #14 09-03-2007, 02:03 PM

well i know for a fact that we are short handed in whitecourt...try up here...

are they planning on drilling right into the lake or will they diretional drill it??

the sismic acctivity sucks...
patch allows my lifestyle to be what it is and yes i do drive my lifted truck to the store..

sjd · #15 09-03-2007, 08:46 PM

Hey bearbait and all,

As a fisherman and proud treehugger, I guess I am one of the environmentalists that gives a damn about what is happening to our lands and waters - here is a copy of the opinion piece we wrote that ran in the Journal and Herald last week under the title - Marie Lake is the Tip of the Iceberg.

Sorry its long - its going to take a lot of Albertans to say enough is enough, we don't have to drill every square inch of Alberta - which unfortunately is the plan.

"The conflict between Marie Lake residents and the energy industry sent a chill down the spine of all Alberta landowners. Could we wake up one morning to find oil sands rights had been sold beneath our feet without our knowledge? Sustainable Resource Development Minister Ted Morton seems to have caught the chill as well.

The battle between Marie Lake cottage owners and the oil sands industry over the fate of their pristine recreational lake is the latest example of the land-use conflicts that inevitably result from the Alberta government's policy of allowing oil and gas development to trump all other voices. That policy is firmly entrenched in Alberta's decision-making processes for energy development. Marie Lake is not an isolated example. Imagine the surprise and anger of Albertans when they realize 54,000 square kilometres of Alberta - an area 12 times the size of Kananaskis Country - has been leased for intensive oil sands development without a hint of discussion as to whether this is in Albertans' best interest.

Minister Morton acknowledged last week that the Marie Lake battle is one conflict among many, and that the government's process for selling oil and gas leases is a big part of the problem. It is ground breaking for a senior minister to state publicly that the sale of mineral rights by Alberta Energy "without much discussion about whether the land is appropriate for development or not" is a recipe for conflict. These comments from the minister responsible for land use put him on a collision course with the Department of Energy which traditionally gets its way on all issues linked to energy development in this province.

Minister Morton appears to recognize the need for a new leasing process that applies the 'look before you leap' principle when considering the sale of oil and gas rights in environmentally-sensitive areas; and that includes meaningful input from Albertans who will be affected by the exploration and development of those lands. He has stated he expects recommendations to this effect to be part of the government's land-use framework which will begin to take shape later this autumn.

Reforming the oil and gas leasing process is a good place to start. Leasing decisions without consideration of the environmental implications of development and without notifying, let alone consulting with, affected land-owners and stakeholders is a policy choice. That choice fuels the 'full-throttle and damn the consequences' approach to oil and gas development that is pervasive in Alberta. It is producing conflict in the Marie Lake area and throughout our boreal forestlands, along the southern East Slopes, and elsewhere in the province. Albertans from all walks of life are starting to ask who are the winners and losers in this boom?

In its April 2007 publication, Haste Makes Waste: The Need for a New Oil Sands Tenure Regime, the Pembina Institute identified the impending collision between an out-of-control oil sands leasing process and Albertans' expectations for environmental protection. Focussing on oil sands development, it presented the necessary steps to update the old-fashioned and secretive way the Alberta government leases land. For changes to take place, and to provide certainty to the public and industry, Pembina recommended a temporary moratorium on new oil sands lease sales until the tenure process is reformed.

Then, prior to lifting the moratorium, Cabinet must ensure that land use planning is completed in the affected areas so it informs decisions to grant oil sands rights.

The report recommends conducting environmental assessments, the creation of a public registry to provide opportunities for public comment prior to granting oil sands rights, and implementing a transparent decision-making process based on whether oil sands exploration and development is in the public interest. These proposals should provide a standard for evaluating the land-use framework recommendations that Minister Morton will be releasing later this fall.

Minister Morton has acknowledged the process is badly broken. His next challenge will be to secure broad support from Cabinet and overcome what will likely be stiff resistance from well-entrenched and powerful interests within the Department of Energy and the oil and gas industry.

The outcome will ultimately depend on whether Premier Ed Stelmach and his Cabinet are prepared to make the significant changes required to avoid the battles, like Marie Lake and elsewhere, from turning into a province-wide war that will increasingly pit landowners and other stakeholders against the oil and gas industry. The Marie Lake conflict is clear evidence that a failure to act decisively may have significant political consequences for a government that is increasingly seen as representing the interests of corporations at the expense of the quality of life and concerns for environmental protection that matter most to Albertans."

Steve Kennett and Simon Dyer are senior policy analysts at the Pembina Institute, which provides policy research on energy and environmental issues. Haste Makes Waste: The Need for a New Oil Sands Tenure Regime is available at www.pembina.org.

Walleyes · #16 09-03-2007, 09:32 PM

I wonder when they are going to start to drill there,,, I need to get some work closer to home...

y67 · #17 09-03-2007, 11:30 PM

Those cottagers dumping their rotten sewage cause more damage than seismic.

Walleyes · #18 09-04-2007, 10:12 AM

Yup... And the sea-doo's and the power boats and washings cars on shore and all the quads that are driven around in the surounding area tearing up the local trails and all the garbage that gets blown into the lake and the garbage that gets thrown into the lake and so on and so on...

But it's a lot easyer to point the finger at the big bad oil pacth than it is to walk you're talk I geuss..

steveo10 · #19 09-05-2007, 08:48 AM

seismic activity has been stopped for now on Marie Lake

#20 09-05-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveo10

seismic activity has been stopped for now on Marie Lake

Heard that on the radio this am and thought of this thread

steveo10 · #21 09-05-2007, 04:08 PM

Thats the 1st thing that came to my mind as well... this is the place that i heard it 1st a few months back

bearbait · #22 09-05-2007, 06:58 PM

read in paper today that the project has been cancelled due to public concern...

good news...

sjd....i do care about the lakes and rivers of alberta as im a hard core fisherman...so do not think all in the patch dont care....most of us do..
rob

Walleyes · #23 09-05-2007, 08:38 PM

I think as outdoors people we all care about what happens to our surroundings... And as an outdoors man that works in the oil patch I definitely care what happens also.. But some of the point I was trying to get across is people can't sit there and build homes and cottages and every thing else that goes with it then sit there and point a finger at industry and say they will destroy our little jewel... Sorry but as far as I'm concerned that little jewel is all ready destroyed.... If it was to be preserved then move you're house and cottage and replace it back to nature...

Is it good that the project won't go ahead,,, sure,,, there are lots of other places to go so why disrupt the lake.. But I wonder how many people that are fighting this thing have ever been to Marie Lake ?? I have been,, worked around there quite a bit a few years ago... It's not like this place is in the middle of no where,, it sits in the middle of a very active area.. And they have been drilling and cutting line in that country for years... It is a very busy industrial area... So its not exactly like they were going to start drilling in Banff Park or anything.. It would of been just another of the hundreds of leases that already exist in the area...

Penner · #24 09-06-2007, 08:25 AM

y67 & walleyes looks like the two of you are just trying to get a rise out of someone!

Grow-up and get educated! It’s guys like you that give sportsmen a bad rap.

FiveO · #25 09-06-2007, 09:45 AM

Walleyes; give your head a shake. Please tell us you kidding?

sjd · #26 09-06-2007, 10:00 AM

Well I'm pleased that Stelmach saw the light and cancelled the seismic. The media is playing this as a good news story, but they missed the big picture - Albertans are now going to be on the hook for compensating OSUM to buy-back a lease that should never have been sold in the first place.

Walleyes does have a point - we all have impacts in the bush, be it too many cabins, too much oil and gas, or too much ATV use - its called cumulative effects, and Alberta's environment, and the quality of hunting and fishing are declining as a result.

What's the solution. Its not that oil and gas, or the folks that work for the patch, or those landowners don't care about the environment, but there need to be limits, and sometimes we need to say 'no' - Alberta doesn't need to liquidate its natural resources just to get oil of the ground to feed Americans. Everyone needs a job, sure, but why do we need to import 200,000 jobs just to make things busier, and wreck the environment quicker?

Credit to an organized group of landowners standing up for what they believe in - but this is not a isolated, or even a "lake" issue. Why are we punching roads into the roadless Blackstone/Wapiabi, why are we trying to build wind turbines on some of the last native prairie near the Cypress Hills or wiping out caribou in the Little Smoky, or mining 20km of the Muskeg River bed in Fort McMurray? Its because there is no plan for what Alberta is supposed to look like in 50 years, and the Government is asleep at the switch. OSUM ran into some well organized resistance. There's lots of places, where there is no-one to speak for the outdoors, except sportsmen, and I don't even see much of that. I encourage everyone to do that, rather than sniping at each others motives.

Walleyes · #27 09-06-2007, 01:56 PM

sjd,, very well put and I agree with you 100%....

Fiveo tell you I'm kidding about what ??? what is it about what I said that you don't understand...

penner you get better educated my friend,,, I live, work and play in the north east,, I hunt and fish in many of the area's being affected by development and by that I mean "all" development not just the oil development.. I see housing, farming and logging or what ever kind of development as all disruptive to the wild lands in this province... And that was the point I was trying to get across.. People and I mean all of us have to take responsibility for what is happening in this province,,, don't just sit back and point the finger at the biggest target...

But that's all rite boys go through life thinking that you don't leave a print and that it is every body else's fault for what happens... Thats exactly what this world needs more of... The David Sazukis to fly to the environmental protests in their helicopters....

Penner · #28 09-06-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walleyes

I wonder when they are going to start to drill there,,, I need to get some work closer to home...

I enjoy a good discussion but your dumbar$e-redneck comments are not really needed.

I've also played up in the northeast and still do. I practically lived up there as a kid during many of the summer months an I know the area like the back of my hand. Thus is why I have fought hard against this project from day one and I’ll fight hard against any other oil, gas, logging, or any other industrial type project that plans to set foot in or around the Lakeland area.

I do not dispute that recreational use has it environmental impacts however to 1:1,000,00 the scale the environmental impacts an industrial project can have. The majority of recreational users and or landowners care 100x more about there environmental impacts than any industrial company would. After all its Alberta’s land and I feel it shall be enjoyed by Albertan’s for many years to come not to be exploited by industrial projects whom are mainly based outside of Canada who’s only interest is how much money can they make and how fast. Rush in quickly and rush out even quicker. They do not have to live with the impact or mistakes they make. I DO.

Remember the industrial companies only lease the land they do not OWN it.

FiveO · #29 09-06-2007, 04:18 PM

Well said Penner. Walleye is always trying to pick a fight dont let him get to yah.

Walleyes · #30 09-06-2007, 04:40 PM

Fiveo once again you missed the whole point of my posts,, they were not to pick a fight but to help enlighten,, but you being so open minded missed it again...

Quote:

I've also played up in the northeast and still do. I practically lived up there as a kid during many of the summer months an I know the area like the back of my hand. Thus is why I have fought hard against this project from day one and I’ll fight hard against any other oil, gas, logging, or any other industrial type project that plans to set foot in or around the Lakeland area

penner do those of us that now live and in my case have always lived and are now raising families in the lakeland area a favour,,, don't do us any favours... We are not against industry in the area... We are against needless industry in certain area's.. Was the Marie Lake need less maybe so,, I'm truly happy for the home owners that they won... But my point was that lies and scare tactics should not be used to persuade the public.. We as gun owners should know better..

Will they extract the oil from under that lake ??? guaranteed... They will wait till this fat little spoiled boy of a province gets hungry and listens to objective views and common sense... Hey you can't look at more food when you're belly is full !!!!!