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  #31  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:37 AM
IL Bar IL Bar is offline
 
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I just bought a Franchi Instinct L as I’m just starting to do a little clay shooting. I also own a couple rem 870 and a browning a5. They are all 12 gauge. Hands down I prefer shooting that franchi over the rest of them. As others have said it’s best to try a few different models out.
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  #32  
Old 10-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
I have three friends who hung with 2 3/4” 1100’s , both from the 70’s and neither have ever had any issues at all dropping geese cleanly atbtgecradges of our decoy spreads with Winchester 2’s
The guns are reasonable weight, easy to clean if needed and stone cold reliable but then so is an older A5 which many feel is an outdated , obsolete and not a good gun these days.
Cat
Browning A5 (The Humpback) has always been one of my favorites. My wife had an older A5 made in Belgium when I first met her. Beautiful gun.

Whats atbtgecradges mean ?
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  #33  
Old 10-19-2018, 05:56 AM
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Browning A5 (The Humpback) has always been one of my favorites. My wife had an older A5 made in Belgium when I first met her. Beautiful gun.

Whats atbtgecradges mean ?
OH CRAP! I was on my phone again, it looks good until I keep going then gets mixed up at times- I'm dyslexic and things don't always look as they are supposed too when I type.
"At the end of our decoys" is what I meant to say, sorry!
Cat
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  #34  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:41 PM
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OH CRAP! I was on my phone again, it looks good until I keep going then gets mixed up at times- I'm dyslexic and things don't always look as they are supposed too when I type.
"At the end of our decoys" is what I meant to say, sorry!
Cat
My guess was "on the acreages" but that didn't really make sense with the rest of the sentence.
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  #35  
Old 10-19-2018, 08:12 PM
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Cat's a free mason and member of the secret society. Only those on the inside of the circle of knowledge know and understand the true meaning of atbtgecradges.

those who ask to many questions do so at their own peril.
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  #36  
Old 10-19-2018, 08:41 PM
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Cat's a free mason and member of the secret society. Only those on the inside of the circle of knowledge know and understand the true meaning of atbtgecradges.

those who ask to many questions do so at their own peril.
You were warned once about divulging the secret stuff.
Prepare to be dhhtiesssll!
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  #37  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:45 PM
Twobucks Twobucks is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Since this will be your first shotgun, you probably are not aware of the importance of fit.
So important! Shotguns are like boots and women - they can be great but they may not be great for you. Fit is everything.

I bought a new Browning Silver Hunter a couple years ago - I could have spent a fair bit more, but after shouldering at least a dozen other guns it was the one that came up to my eye most consistently.

Spend enough to get at least some mid-level quality, but most importantly spend some time to figure out fit.
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  #38  
Old 10-19-2018, 10:45 PM
Roderek Roderek is offline
 
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Cat's a free mason and member of the secret society. Only those on the inside of the circle of knowledge know and understand the true meaning of atbtgecradges.

those who ask to many questions do so at their own peril.
In the light or darkness I wouldn't have recognized him as a free mason from that typo... We have other signs and symbols for that.
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  #39  
Old 10-21-2018, 06:19 AM
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In the light or darkness I wouldn't have recognized him as a free mason from that typo... We have other signs and symbols for that.
If one were in the Center it is easier because one cannot err then.
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  #40  
Old 10-21-2018, 01:18 PM
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To be honest I haven't really liked any remington that I have handled. Not sure what It is but reviews on them were good so I handled the versa max and another one, I think it was a wingmaster.
Hey Roderek~I really try not to push any given gun make/model, but feel I should chime-in on my latest gun purchase, a Remington Versa Max Sportsman. I should preface my comments by saying I AM a Remington shotgun fan, and couldn't attempt to tell you how many I've used. It might even be a small challenge to say how many have come and gone from my own collection. lol 870 Wingmaster/Express/Police, Remington 11-48 (old recoil-operated semi I inherited when my grandfather passed in '77), a few other 11-48s that I had to own (20ga, 28ga) etc. I was always more of a pump fan, and to be honest...the 11-48s have recoil that pretty much rival pumps. Odd recoil impulse too, considering the barrels enter the receivers on firing. Anyhow, I've used 1100s (and like them) and 11-87s, which I like MUCH less. In fact, the only failure I've ever seen with a Remington is an 11-87 that had some of it's guns fall right out of it on it's first 3-1/2" load. Maybe a manufacturing defect, because I know the guy that owned it took great care of his guns. Anyhow, with too many pumps and NO modern (low recoil) semi I decided to try whatever I could in recent years, and settled on the Versa Max when I got serious. Sold off my 870 Police to help finance it.

Before I get into the Versa Max Sportsman, I should mention that (unlike all my other guns) the goal was to get a working gun, not a walnut-stocked, pretty thing. In spite of the $ involved, I knew I'd judge this gun based on how well it worked, not on how good it looked. I actually find them very plain/utilitarian, not overly attractive, etc. Just a tool, in the truest sense of the word. I asked an opinion question on these here on AO, and was soon pointed to a retailer in Alberta who had them on sale. I've since checked, they're back-up to regular price. I was already sort of set on one of these. I'd used one before, and already knew;

Pro: lightest-recoiling shotgun I'd ever used
Con: one of the heavier shotguns I'd ever used

I'm 6'1, 265lbs.-ish...and while I'm not recoil shy, I'll be the first to admit that recoil doesn't add anything pleasant to the shooting experience. Especially if you shoot allot. The truth is, even a heavy 3" load through the VM gives you less felt-recoil than a target load through a 20ga 870.

In my research, I came across Tactical Ordnance's site; http://tacord.com/products/shotguns/versamax/ and read-up on the options Casey offers. With no 3-gun aspirations, I sort of dismissed most of what I read there...and thought back to how well the one I tried had run. Casey is about 15 minutes up the road from where I live, so I chatted a bit with him anyway. He sent me an itemized price list of parts/services, I skimmed over them..then ignored them mostly.

I ordered a 28" VM Sportsman, took it for a test shoot...and LIKE previous experiences with these guns, VERY light recoil, chugged away like a sewing machine, hefty-feeling, etc. However, I did not like a few things.

1. The worst had to be the carrier. Remington makes these a little too short, and with a V-shaped notch on the forward end. During loading, the moment you get the shell seated far enough into the magazine, that carrier falls behind your thumb sort of trapping it there. (pinched=ouch) No good at all, and painful. Difficult to free-up your thumb if you have a glove on too.

2. Action-release button is where it is on all Remington semis, but is very small/stiff. Stiffness might ease-up in time, not sure

3. Occasional failure to feed correctly. Strange effect~the chamber end of the barrel must have (=had ) enough sharp edges that it would literally catch some shells half-chambered. I mean, in-line with the chamber, but 1/2 chambered. Upon inspection, you could sometimes see a little plastic shaved off the side of the shell, causing the stoppage. About 1/40 rounds, but 1 too many~especially for that reason!

4. Charging handle was short/stubby like all other older Remington semis, but I knew better ones were available on the higher-grade Versa Max's. Personal preference thing, but I knew the gun would see some bad weather days, and I'd be wearing gloves.

Now, I got a great deal on this new gun so I thought I'd take another look at the Tac-Ord site and sure enough, Casey's modifications/parts offered started to make a whole lot of sense. lol I gave him a call, arranged to meet him at a convenient time where I could wait to have the work done, and drove up to his shop.

I opted to have him install his own carrier, his own over-sized action release button, a Nordic charging handle and do a chamber/feed lip polish job. I'm now into this gun for what a regular-priced Versa Max Sportsman would cost, but still less than what one of the new upper-level VM sell for. I'm not inclined to modify guns whether they're new OR old, but I figured Casey's work wouldn't hurt the gun's value any, or change it's looks much~good OR bad. The gun runs unbelievably well now, regardless of the shells you use. Loads/feeds/ejects flawlessly, every time, period. My recoil-sensitive teenage son loves this thing too, and I've had him run it using some loads that would have been outing-enders if he'd tried them in a pump gun! lol

I'm not sure whether this post makes you more or less interested in a Remington VM, but it should be informative at the very least. I would have liked to have known about a couple of these shortcomings before buying one, but knowing Casey's endorsement OF these guns (his qualifications) and proximity to where I live, I felt it was a safe purchase no matter what. Awfully hard NOT to love the thing now, 100% reliability/ease of use/minimal recoil/digests everything without a hiccup=all good!



You can see the polished carrier hanging out of the bottom (Casey's own), the upgraded charging handle and action release in this photo.

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  #41  
Old 10-21-2018, 09:41 PM
Roderek Roderek is offline
 
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Thanks for the detailed response.
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  #42  
Old 11-23-2018, 04:07 PM
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Well I made it out to Silver Willow today, they are moving away from Beretta and Bennelli, so they didn't have any A400 with Kick off system for me to test out, but I shot a few different ones and I settled on the Browning Maxus.
It was pretty soft on the shoulder, first couple of shots I barely felt anything.

I really liked the white mid bead with the fiber optic sight on the front. Balance and fit seemed to be really good. I guess the true test will be when I head out and shoot several boxes, but I probably put about 30 rounds through the ones I tested today and the shoulder isn't feeling any pain at all.

The hit to the wallet wasn't so bad either as Browning has a $200 rebate on the Maxus shotguns for Black Friday.

it was a tough choice between the Maxus and the SX4, both guns are very similar, the Maxus was more money, but just felt a little smoother. I don't think the Sx4 would have been a bad choice either.
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  #43  
Old 11-23-2018, 04:12 PM
GrouseHunter GrouseHunter is offline
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Make sure it fits, that is the MOST IMPORTANT thing!

Do you know what I mean by that?

Last edited by GrouseHunter; 11-23-2018 at 04:26 PM.
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  #44  
Old 11-23-2018, 09:54 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Roderek View Post
Well I made it out to Silver Willow today, they are moving away from Beretta and Bennelli, so they didn't have any A400 with Kick off system for me to test out, but I shot a few different ones and I settled on the Browning Maxus.
It was pretty soft on the shoulder, first couple of shots I barely felt anything.

I really liked the white mid bead with the fiber optic sight on the front. Balance and fit seemed to be really good. I guess the true test will be when I head out and shoot several boxes, but I probably put about 30 rounds through the ones I tested today and the shoulder isn't feeling any pain at all.

The hit to the wallet wasn't so bad either as Browning has a $200 rebate on the Maxus shotguns for Black Friday.

it was a tough choice between the Maxus and the SX4, both guns are very similar, the Maxus was more money, but just felt a little smoother. I don't think the Sx4 would have been a bad choice either.
Whatever you do, don't try to line up that white mid bead with the fiber optic front bead, like the sights on a rifle, when wing shooting.
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  #45  
Old 11-23-2018, 10:09 PM
Roderek Roderek is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Whatever you do, don't try to line up that white mid bead with the fiber optic front bead, like the sights on a rifle, when wing shooting.
I don't think I was lining it up. I just found that the contrasting colors increased how quickly my eyes focused, I was able to get on target super fast. I didn't shoot a lot with it, but the only clay I missed I forgot to turn off the safety
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  #46  
Old 11-23-2018, 10:19 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Roderek View Post
I don't think I was lining it up. I just found that the contrasting colors increased how quickly my eyes focused, I was able to get on target super fast. I didn't shoot a lot with it, but the only clay I missed I forgot to turn off the safety
Focus your eye on the target , ignore the beads.
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2018, 08:55 AM
Diesel_wiesel Diesel_wiesel is offline
 
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if it fits you properly
that's number one in my books
I have two browning gold 10 gauges
and a browning gold 12 gauge
they fit me almost to next to perfect
I have a Beretta and Winchester over under
and two browning sxs (they fit not to badly)
and a rem wing master as well as a Winchester sxp
stoeger m3500
and a Winchester sx3
they are all very very nice guns
if I'm going upland bird hunting I reach for the browning gold 12 gauge every time
if I'm going goose hunting I will always reach for the browning golds, they fit me , and solely because of that
the recoil is less then any of the others, and because of the fit my accuracy is %50 to %75 better
it wont matter what shotgun you purchase or how cheap or how expensive it is
the end result is going to be the same if it don't fit
you wont enjoy it
it will beat you up,
and you wont hit the broad side of barn at point blank range
if it fits you
it will be the opposite
you will enjoy it
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Roderek View Post
I don't think I was lining it up. I just found that the contrasting colors increased how quickly my eyes focused, I was able to get on target super fast. I didn't shoot a lot with it, but the only clay I missed I forgot to turn off the safety
I picked up the Maxus as well and love the fiber optic sights. It is one thing to be set up for the right yardage over a pointer or on a sporting clays course but in the real world shots can come fast from any angle. A prime example of not getting set properly is in a layout blind or other awkward hideouts. Up to your knees in mud and cattails is less than ideal as well.

Another example of the importance of being "barrel aware" is when the flush is up close and person like hunting Ruffies over dogs or ducks/geese right in the decoys. The pattern is the size of a pie plate and needs to be placed precisely to avoid meat damage. One may also need to place a pattern between two trees rather than swing in time with the flight of the bird.

Anyway, the best shooters in the world are "barrel aware" in spite of what some of the local experts write. In fact I bet money that they themselves are subconsciously watching beads in their peripheral vision and if they are not, they should be. Anything that aides in a clean kill is a good thing.

I have no less than a dozen shotguns kicking around the house and like to get them all out for a whirl at least once a season. I wish they were all identical but I can shoot them all well with a little barrel awareness. Heavy duck hunting parkas to tee shirts and vests can be used on the same day around here. Anyone that tells you that you are going to mount a shotgun perfectly from different positions, wearing different clothing on uneven terrain, every time needs to get out more. I would wager the vast majority of missed field shots are from a poor mount and a lack of barrel awareness. A good sighting system will help you avoid this and like you say, get on target fast.

Hope you enjoy your Maxus as much as I do mine.
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2018, 01:44 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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I picked up the Maxus as well and love the fiber optic sights. It is one thing to be set up for the right yardage over a pointer or on a sporting clays course but in the real world shots can come fast from any angle. A prime example of not getting set properly is in a layout blind or other awkward hideouts. Up to your knees in mud and cattails is less than ideal as well.

Another example of the importance of being "barrel aware" is when the flush is up close and person like hunting Ruffies over dogs or ducks/geese right in the decoys. The pattern is the size of a pie plate and needs to be placed precisely to avoid meat damage. One may also need to place a pattern between two trees rather than swing in time with the flight of the bird.

Anyway, the best shooters in the world are "barrel aware" in spite of what some of the local experts write. In fact I bet money that they themselves are subconsciously watching beads in their peripheral vision and if they are not, they should be. Anything that aides in a clean kill is a good thing.

I have no less than a dozen shotguns kicking around the house and like to get them all out for a whirl at least once a season. I wish they were all identical but I can shoot them all well with a little barrel awareness. Heavy duck hunting parkas to tee shirts and vests can be used on the same day around here. Anyone that tells you that you are going to mount a shotgun perfectly from different positions, wearing different clothing on uneven terrain, every time needs to get out more. I would wager the vast majority of missed field shots are from a poor mount and a lack of barrel awareness. A good sighting system will help you avoid this and like you say, get on target fast.

Hope you enjoy your Maxus as much as I do mine.
Yes pretty much all shooters see the out of focus barrel as they swing their shotgun, but the better shooters concentrate on the target, not on the beads. I actually know two shooters that had the front bead fall out of the rib, and years later, they never bothered to replace the bead, because losing it , never effected their shooting. I have actually removed the bead from one of my guns just to prove that it wouldn't effect my shooting. As to hunting over a pointer, you often don't know where the bird is, or where it will flush and they often are flushing in the brush, which requires shooting through trees. As to sporting clays, every target on the course is different, ranges and speeds vary considerably, and some targets have very short windows where they can be shot, especially doubles. Quick target acquisition , and getting the gun on the target quickly are critical in those situations. And if you are the first person to shoot the station,you don't see the target beforehand, so you are depending totally on reacting to the presentation that results. I use layout blinds myself, and I find it at least as easy to shoot a triple of geese landing into the decoys, compared to a double on Hungarian partridges over a pointer. The bottom line, is that if you want to reach your potential at wingshooting, concentrate on the targets, not on the beads.
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  #50  
Old 11-24-2018, 06:50 PM
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Yes pretty much all shooters see the out of focus barrel as they swing their shotgun,
That is what peripheral vision and barrel awareness means. Try reading slower or use Google if you don't comprehend rather than wasting time typing. Good sights allow some new shooters or those with weak peripheral vision the ability to be barrel aware without losing focus on the target.

Have you ever missed a shot?

Last edited by MK2750; 11-24-2018 at 06:57 PM.
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  #51  
Old 11-24-2018, 07:38 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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That is what peripheral vision and barrel awareness means. Try reading slower or use Google if you don't comprehend rather than wasting time typing. Good sights allow some new shooters or those with weak peripheral vision the ability to be barrel aware without losing focus on the target.

Have you ever missed a shot?
You can concentrate on the target as you shoulder the gun,or you can concentrate on the beads as you shoulder the gun, but you can't concentrate on both as you shoulder the gun . I have taught many people to wing shoot, and the ones that had the most issues, were the ones that tried to aim using the beads. And using the beads as sights is a hard habit to break for many people, so it's best to avoid the habit altogether. The beads can be useful for checking the gun mount before calling for a target, in sports that use a pre mounted gun, but once you are swinging on the target, they are just a distraction. And yes I do miss some shots, but I wouldn't hesitate to put my wing shooting ability against yours .
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  #52  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:00 PM
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And yes I do miss some shots, but I wouldn't hesitate to put my wing shooting ability against yours .
So if you miss what happened? Surely you were focused on the target? Did you suddenly lose focus and look at a tree or something else?

Most good shooters know exactly what happened when they miss. Do you know what happened or do you stand there wondering what happened?

I have told you on more than one occasion that you are welcome to join me diver hunting on big water. Your thoughts on wing shooting will soon change especially if the wind is up. Ruffed Grouse or Woodcock in tight cover over flushing dogs would be an eye opener for you too.
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2018, 10:26 PM
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So if you miss what happened? Surely you were focused on the target? Did you suddenly lose focus and look at a tree or something else?

Most good shooters know exactly what happened when they miss. Do you know what happened or do you stand there wondering what happened?

I have told you on more than one occasion that you are welcome to join me diver hunting on big water. Your thoughts on wing shooting will soon change especially if the wind is up. Ruffed Grouse or Woodcock in tight cover over flushing dogs would be an eye opener for you too.
Several things can cause a miss, but it's usually misjudging the speed , the distance or the angle, which results in the lead being incorrect. I have shot ruffed grouse in tight cover, and concentrating on the target works in that situation like it works in every other situation. It doesn't matter whether the distance is close or far, whether the target is incoming or outgoing, or rising or dropping, concentrating on the target works.
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Old 11-24-2018, 11:33 PM
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Several things can cause a miss, but it's usually misjudging the speed , the distance or the angle, which results in the lead being incorrect.
How do you know? Too far behind, too far ahead, too high, too low? How does one know so they can make the corrections and improve?

Experienced shooters are barrel aware and know exactly what happened. They can generally correct it so quickly they can fold the bird with a second shot if available.

Inexperienced shooters have no idea where the shot went when they miss because they lack barrel awareness. They make the same mistakes over and over. They have really good days and really poor days. They are unable to adapt to changing or difficult conditions.

Your misses may very well be a miscalculation of lead or angle. The vast majority of shots are missed because of an inconsistent mount and head position. This of course can easily be corrected with a little barrel awareness aided by a good set of sights so one doesn't lose focus of the target.

Field shooting geese, farmed raised pheasants and recreational skeet shooting is entry level wing shooting at best. Being able to make these shots without a bead after thousands of rounds of practice using a perfectly fitted shotgun that few can afford is of no relevance to the average shooter.
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  #55  
Old 11-25-2018, 07:53 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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How do you know? Too far behind, too far ahead, too high, too low? How does one know so they can make the corrections and improve?

Experienced shooters are barrel aware and know exactly what happened. They can generally correct it so quickly they can fold the bird with a second shot if available.

Inexperienced shooters have no idea where the shot went when they miss because they lack barrel awareness. They make the same mistakes over and over. They have really good days and really poor days. They are unable to adapt to changing or difficult conditions.

Your misses may very well be a miscalculation of lead or angle. The vast majority of shots are missed because of an inconsistent mount and head position. This of course can easily be corrected with a little barrel awareness aided by a good set of sights so one doesn't lose focus of the target.

Field shooting geese, farmed raised pheasants and recreational skeet shooting is entry level wing shooting at best. Being able to make these shots without a bead after thousands of rounds of practice using a perfectly fitted shotgun that few can afford is of no relevance to the average shooter.
I shoot with many new shooters, and the ones that start out trying to aim, end up taking far too long to shoot, and end up shooting at much longer ranges, because they are trying to line up beads with a target. And most miss behind the target, because they simply don't lead enough, or because they stop their swing to pull the trigger. Some shoot high because they lift their head, but most shoot behind, and that is why they have so many crippled birds in the field. As to released pheasants being entry level shooting, yes it is when the birds are in an open field. They tend to fly straight, nowhere near the challenge of a Hungarian partridge, but when you are shooting them in the trees, a day or two after a release, they aren't much different than a ruffed grouse. Geese landing in decoys are some of the easiest shots there are, but people still miss, just compare the number of empty hulls to the number of birds after a shoot. As to skeet, shooting regular skeet on a calm day with a 12 gauge isn't much of a challenge for a good shooter, but try shooting with a 410, or try shooting doubles at all stations. Shoot some clean rounds of doubles, or some clean rounds with a 410, and then tell me how easy it is. Sporting clays is the fasted growing clays game for a reason, it can be a challenge. When you go out to a DU or a Delta fundraiser, you will be shooting a watered down course, because the owner of the field slows down the machines, and changes the trajectories, so that the shooters who don't normally shoot sporting clays will break more targets. Go out and shoot the league course, and see how you do, it takes a good shooter to average 80% or better over the course of a league. Shooting sporting clays on a regular basis is a great way to improve your wingshooting, because there is a target to simulate pretty much every target that you will encounter while hunting. But sporting clays is expensive, so a beginner is better off learning the basics at skeet. We have many shooters that come out, shoot skeet for a summer, and then find out that their wing shooting on birds has increased dramatically.
As to fitted shotguns, I don't own a singe shotgun that I paid to have fitted for me. My hunting shotguns are all exactly as they came from the factory, and my clays guns were purchased used, and I altered them to fit me myself. If you shop around and shoulder shotguns, you can usually find a shotgun that fits very close, or that can be fine tuned with the shims provided to fit the shooter at no extra cost. The OP purchased a Maxus, which is easily adjusted with the shims provided to fine tune it to the shooter. Even with shims, some shotguns will still fit better than others though, so I still recommend shouldering shotguns before purchasing.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:13 AM
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I shoot with many new shooters, and the ones that start out trying to aim, end up taking far too long to shoot, and end up shooting at much longer ranges, because they are trying to line up beads with a target. And most miss behind the target, because they simply don't lead enough, or because they stop their swing to pull the trigger. Some shoot high because they lift their head, but most shoot behind, and that is why they have so many crippled birds in the field. As to released pheasants being entry level shooting, yes it is when the birds are in an open field. They tend to fly straight, nowhere near the challenge of a Hungarian partridge, but when you are shooting them in the trees, a day or two after a release, they aren't much different than a ruffed grouse. Geese landing in decoys are some of the easiest shots there are, but people still miss, just compare the number of empty hulls to the number of birds after a shoot. As to skeet, shooting regular skeet on a calm day with a 12 gauge isn't much of a challenge for a good shooter, but try shooting with a 410, or try shooting doubles at all stations. Shoot some clean rounds of doubles, or some clean rounds with a 410, and then tell me how easy it is. Sporting clays is the fasted growing clays game for a reason, it can be a challenge. When you go out to a DU or a Delta fundraiser, you will be shooting a watered down course, because the owner of the field slows down the machines, and changes the trajectories, so that the shooters who don't normally shoot sporting clays will break more targets. Go out and shoot the league course, and see how you do, it takes a good shooter to average 80% or better over the course of a league. Shooting sporting clays on a regular basis is a great way to improve your wingshooting, because there is a target to simulate pretty much every target that you will encounter while hunting. But sporting clays is expensive, so a beginner is better off learning the basics at skeet. We have many shooters that come out, shoot skeet for a summer, and then find out that their wing shooting on birds has increased dramatically.
As to fitted shotguns, I don't own a singe shotgun that I paid to have fitted for me. My hunting shotguns are all exactly as they came from the factory, and my clays guns were purchased used, and I altered them to fit me myself. If you shop around and shoulder shotguns, you can usually find a shotgun that fits very close, or that can be fine tuned with the shims provided to fit the shooter at no extra cost. The OP purchased a Maxus, which is easily adjusted with the shims provided to fine tune it to the shooter. Even with shims, some shotguns will still fit better than others though, so I still recommend shouldering shotguns before purchasing.
No one, including the OP that you jumped on, said anything about aiming. There is an optimum distance to break a clay at any given station but that, much like shooting a 410, is irrelevant.

No one mentioned not shouldering a shotgun before purchasing either. The unfortunate part of that is no one is going to be changing shims and butt plates at the gun counter AND most new shooters do not shoulder a shotgun consistently enough to even know if a gun fits.

There is absolutely no doubt that shooters that shoot some clays over the summer will do much better in the fall. I proved it to one of my hunting partners last fall with a simple One Step thrower. He went from poor technique to mid-season forum after only a hundred rounds or so. The poor ones listen to advice and correct according to that bird. They hear that they shot behind it so shoot further ahead. The good ones become barrel aware by picking up the beads in their peripheral vision and understanding the error of their ways. They learn to match the speed and trajectory of the bird by considering the relationship of barrel to target.

You didn't answer my question (as usual) so I will answer it for you. As an experienced shooter you know why you missed and can make the appropriate adjustments. You know you are going to hit tail feathers before the pellets hit the bird if you are late and ready yourself for a second shot. If the shot is perfect you can ready yourself for a second bird before the first bird folds. Whether you want to believe it or not, the only way to know this is by being aware of the barrel alignment and position when you squeezed the trigger.

The vast majority of people like nice sights and use them. This is why some guns come with not only one set but several. This is especially true for competition shooters and guns designed for them. Field guns generally come with a single bead. Guns designed for competition generally have two beads with the front one being fiber optic.

This in no way means that they are aiming their guns like a rifle and not focusing on the target. It means they can focus more on the speed and trajectory of the target because it is so much easier to verify barrel position and alignment in their peripheral vision.

Your argument that you are right and the vast majority of competition shooters and gun manufacturers are wrong is laughable. I guarantee you (if you are as good as you claim to be) that you check barrel alignment on every mount. It is subconscious to an experienced shooter, it is done in the peripheral vision and takes zero time to accomplish. You continue to monitor your barrel alignment and position in your peripheral vision as you match or accelerate past the bird depending on your shooting style. If you were not doing this, you would miss on first shot opportunities nearly every time a new challenge presented itself in the field.

Please carry on in your self righteousness but telling people to "ignore the beads" is poor advice. You are basically telling people to ignore where the gun is pointing and watch the birdy. Mistakes happen in the hands of the shooter not by something the bird does or doesn't do. Being able to recognize and correct mistakes on one's own is the key to improvement.

Last edited by MK2750; 11-25-2018 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:19 AM
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Old 11-25-2018, 09:39 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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No one, including the OP that you jumped on, said anything about aiming. There is an optimum distance to break a clay at any given station but that, much like shooting a 410, is irrelevant.

No one mentioned not shouldering a shotgun before purchasing either. The unfortunate part of that is no one is going to be changing shims and butt plates at the gun counter AND most new shooters do not shoulder a shotgun consistently enough to even know if a gun fits.

There is absolutely no doubt that shooters that shoot some clays over the summer will do much better in the fall. I proved it to one of my hunting partners last fall with a simple One Step thrower. He went from poor technique to mid-season forum after only a hundred rounds or so. The poor ones listen to advice and correct according to that bird. They hear that they shot behind it so shoot further ahead. The good ones become barrel aware by picking up the beads in their peripheral vision and understand the error of their ways. They learn to match the speed and trajectory of the bird by considering the relationship of barrel to target.

You didn't answer my question (as usual) so I will answer it for you. As an experienced shooter you know why you missed and can make the appropriate adjustments. You know you are going to hit tail feathers before the pellets hit the bird if you are late and ready yourself for a second shot. If the shot is perfect you can ready yourself for a second bird before the first bird folds. Whether you want to believe it or not, the only way to know this is by being aware of the barrel alignment and position when you squeezed the trigger.

The vast majority of people like nice sights and use them. This is why some guns come with not only one set but several. This is especially true for competition shooters and guns designed for them. Field guns generally come with a single bead. Guns designed for competition generally have two beads with the front one being fiber optic.

This in no way means that they are aiming their guns like a rifle and not focusing on the target. It means they can focus more on the speed and trajectory of the target because it is so much easier to verify barrel position and alignment in their peripheral vision.

Your argument that you are right and the vast majority of competition shooters and gun manufacturers are wrong is laughable. I guarantee you (if you are as good as you claim to be) that you check barrel alignment on every mount. It is subconscious to an experienced shooter, it is done in the peripheral vision and takes zero time to accomplish. You continue to monitor your barrel alignment and position in your peripheral vision as you match or accelerate past the bird depending on your shooting style. If you were not doing this, you will miss on first shot opportunities nearly every time a new challenge presented itself in the field.

Please carry on in your self righteousness but telling people to "ignore the beads" is poor advice. You are basically telling people to ignore where the gun is pointing and watch the birdy. Mistakes happen in the hands of the shooter not by something the bird does or doesn't do. Being able to recognize and correct mistakes on one's own is the key to improvement.
Competition shotguns come with two beads, so the shooter can verify the gun position with a shouldered gun, before calling for the target. Have you ever wondered why the mid bead is so small, and why it isn't a hi-viz bead? If it was meat to be used as a sight to aim with, why is it so small, and not hi-viz? Why don't hunting shotguns usually have a mid bead? Could it be that there is no use for it, because people don't typically hunt with a premounted shotgun? As well, many people shoot sporting clays from a low gun position, I do this myself. I am shouldering the gun as I swing the gun, and I pull the trigger as soon as the gun is where I want it to be, I don't shift my concentration from the target to check the position of the beads before pulling the trigger. I concentrate on the target just as all good shooters must do. I do see an out of focus barrel, and sub consciously, I may even see the beads, but consciously, I am concentrating on the target, and ignoring the beads.
Have you ever watched "Canada's Worst Driver" ? How do they teach people how to steer in emergency situations ? They teach people to look where they want the vehicle to go, they don't teach a person to aim the vehicle by lining up part of the vehicle with where they want it to go. The concept works the same for wing shooting.

Here is the opinion of a reputable shooting instructor.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers...shotguns-87640

Quote:
The bead on your shotgun is just a marker, not something to take into consideration when you are shooting. If you find yourself looking at your bead when you are shooting I would recommend getting a smaller one that doesn’t attract your sight or remove it altogether.

I had a client the other day whose bead fell out halfway round a shoot, and to his surprise he found he shot much better without it. Most of our school guns have had the bead removed – if it’s not there you can’t look at it.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 11-25-2018 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Competition shotguns come with two beads, so the shooter can verify the gun position with a shouldered gun, before calling for the target. Have you ever wondered why the mid bead is so small, and why it isn't a hi-viz bead? If it was meat to be used as a sight to aim with, why is it so small, and not hi-viz? Why don't hunting shotguns usually have a mid bead? Could it be that there is no use for it, because people don't typically hunt with a premounted shotgun? As well, many people shoot sporting clays from a low gun position, I do this myself. I am shouldering the gun as I swing the gun, and I pull the trigger as soon as the gun is where I want it to be, I don't shift my concentration from the target to check the position of the beads before pulling the trigger. I concentrate on the target just as all good shooters must do. I do see an out of focus barrel, and sub consciously, I may even see the beads, but consciously, I am concentrating on the target, and ignoring the beads.
Have you ever watched "Canada's Worst Driver" ? How do they teach people how to steer in emergency situations ? They teach people to look where they want the vehicle to go, they don't teach a person to aim the vehicle by lining up part of the vehicle with where they want it to go. The concept works the same for wing shooting.

Here is the opinion of a reputable shooting instructor.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers...shotguns-87640
You are not allowed to pre-shoulder your gun in competition but don't let facts get in the way of your argument. Please make some phone calls and see if you can convince competition shooters to remove the beads from their shotguns. If you convince one, I will remove the beads from my shotguns as well.

And please don't start scanning the internet for someone that agrees with you. With millions of bloggers I am sure you will find one. I can find you just as many articles that stress the importance of barrel awareness (NOT AIMING LIKE YOU KEEP REFERRING TO) in consistent shooting. It is peripheral (LIKE I MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES) not focus, just like the link you provided. If you or your friends have some disorder where as you can not shift focus from a bead to a target then by all means remove it.

As for this statement;

"And yes I do miss some shots, but I wouldn't hesitate to put my wing shooting ability against yours."

Pretending to know how someone else shoots and comparing your shooting to the imagined abilities of someone else is a bit absurd don't you think? What are we twelve???
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Old 11-25-2018, 11:27 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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You are not allowed to pre-shoulder your gun in competition but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.
You most certainly are allowed to preshoulder your gun for skeet, trap, and some types of sporting clays. ATA, NSSA, and NSCA all allow pre-mounted guns.
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