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  #31  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:58 PM
Bigbuckwsm Bigbuckwsm is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ebrand View Post
Or copper fouled?

Bizarre for Zeiss to foul up...
I had a brand new hd5 screw up on me! Cost me a nice buck!
Warranty was like a 7 month turnaround!
Yes they sent me a brand new one but it was promptly sold and replaced with a meopta that has been perfect so far.
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  #32  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:38 PM
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Well I got on the range. Different scope same result, 5 inch group at 50 yds. I have 4 days till I can get on the range again. So I did a course of Eliminator Bore cleaner and brushing ran some patches thru to dry and then Filled barrel with Wipeout. I will repeat over the next 4 days and then go from there.
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  #33  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:57 PM
bsmitty27 bsmitty27 is offline
 
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My father in law had a rifle he said shot 1moa or better then one day it wouldn't shoot under 12". I troubleshooted it and eventually found a bulge in barell 1" from crown. Got it chopped off and it shoots good now. Any chance you got something in your barrel last time you were out?
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  #34  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bsmitty27 View Post
My father in law had a rifle he said shot 1moa or better then one day it wouldn't shoot under 12". I troubleshooted it and eventually found a bulge in barell 1" from crown. Got it chopped off and it shoots good now. Any chance you got something in your barrel last time you were out?
I had a used .22 that had a bulge, I could feel it running the brush through the barrel. I cannot feel anything like it in this barrel. I am pretty religious about cleaning my barrel, but have lung issues that solvents aggravate. Maybe I have not been as thorough as I have thought. It's why I like Wipeout, put it in and walk away.
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  #35  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:15 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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Piker how does the Boretech Eliminator work. I bought some but havenít used it yet.
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  #36  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Smokinyotes View Post
Piker how does the Boretech Eliminator work. I bought some but havenít used it yet.
I don't know? I have never been able to clean a barrel until there is no more blue. I always assumed the blue at the end was from my brush or jag. My .223 I spent a good two hours running patches and brushes through with Eliminator, at the end I still had blue patches. My .223 only has a 130 rounds through it and I've cleaned it at least 8 times. Still blue.
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  #37  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:52 PM
SakoShooter SakoShooter is offline
 
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Maybe you've mentioned this, but have you taken the rifle out of the stock? In my opinion it's unlikely that this is a copper fouling issue, it's far more likely to be a loose action screw or damaged bedding.

I know guys who shoot many hundreds of rounds whose idea of cleaning is a boresnake.

I'm very interested in what the issue is when you finally get it figured out.
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  #38  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:03 PM
Ariu Ariu is offline
 
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I had a similar problem with my nephews Ruger 30-06 with a Vortex Crossfire (Cabelas Package). The scope was sliding forwards through the rings. Very very little but just enough to make the group opening up. Starting to get obvious after 8-9shots. The screws were tight and rechecked with a torque screw. I had to put marker on the scope to see the movement.

So far you have ruled out the scope. If you think the gun is OK, is time to check the rings.
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  #39  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SakoShooter View Post
Maybe you've mentioned this, but have you taken the rifle out of the stock? In my opinion it's unlikely that this is a copper fouling issue, it's far more likely to be a loose action screw or damaged bedding.

I know guys who shoot many hundreds of rounds whose idea of cleaning is a boresnake.

I'm very interested in what the issue is when you finally get it figured out.
I checked the action screws they are tight. After a four day cleaning I will try shooting again. If no improvement I will pull the action. It has the aluminum bedding stock I think it is called an accustock and maybe something happened with the front lug grip.
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  #40  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:38 PM
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Savage gone wonky with no apparent reason? Check for a loose nut behind the barrel.
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  #41  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
I checked the action screws they are tight. After a four day cleaning I will try shooting again. If no improvement I will pull the action. It has the aluminum bedding stock I think it is called an accustock and maybe something happened with the front lug grip.
If there is oil in between your stock and the action it does not matter how tight the screws are, the action will shuck in that aluminum bedding block.
Personally speaking I would plll the action before heading out again.
Cat
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  #42  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:17 AM
SakoShooter SakoShooter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
If there is oil in between your stock and the action it does not matter how tight the screws are, the action will shuck in that aluminum bedding block.
Personally speaking I would plll the action before heading out again.
Cat
Interesting. Is this something particular to the savage accustock? I can't imagine a bit of oil getting into the stock of a traditional wood stocked rifle would cause a shifting zero. What about systems like the Ruger American with it's aluminum "v" blocks? I put one in a boyd laminate, and can't say that I'm particularly impressed with the system.
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  #43  
Old 09-13-2018, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakoShooter View Post
Interesting. Is this something particular to the savage accustock? I can't imagine a bit of oil getting into the stock of a traditional wood stocked rifle would cause a shifting zero. What about systems like the Ruger American with it's aluminum "v" blocks? I put one in a boyd laminate, and can't say that I'm particularly impressed with the system.
People tend to over-oil stuff, I have seen oil in underneath actions that would never think , even though the action screws are way too tight.
If there is oil in aluminum bedding block in either a wood or a synthetic stock ,, the action will move.
Cat
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  #44  
Old 09-13-2018, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
If there is oil in between your stock and the action it does not matter how tight the screws are, the action will shuck in that aluminum bedding block.
Personally speaking I would plll the action before heading out again.
Cat
I was thinking about that Cat, but, I would like a definitive answer as to what was wrong. Sooo one thing at a time.
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  #45  
Old 09-13-2018, 08:52 AM
West O'5 West O'5 is offline
 
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Forgive my ignorance but Iím having a hard time wrapping my head around how oil can cause your action to move if itís bedded and screwed down to spec.....tight is tight,no??Is it the bedding material itself that might be sliding?
And even if excess oil can cause it to shift a few microns,wouldnít that be barely noticeable to all but the most discriminating PR shooter,as in fractions of MOA?
....and we are talking here about a dramatic 8Ē shift in POI....I donít get it?
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  #46  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:09 AM
smokeeter smokeeter is offline
 
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You mentioned a different scope same result, was this scope a proven performer. I had a brand new out of the box bushnell scope that wouldn't group.
If your rifle is equipped with sights try them just to see if the gun will group with them, that'll eliminate a lot of questions .
I had a chum that had a tack driver that went wonky cuz the action screws were too tight check the specs on your rifle for correct tightness, also the sequence in which they are tightened might be a factor. You never stated if you had it apart.
I'm sure you checked the mounts but it might be worth another look.
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  #47  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:53 AM
leeelmer leeelmer is offline
 
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Stupid question?
BUt is the barrel nut tight? its a savage so could happen?
I have had a Ziess fail, and a leupold so not that bazar.
My leupold was a frustrating find, had to send back to Korth 3 times, then it got fixed correctly.
Fought with the dealer paid shipping 3 times, never bought anything there again.
Shot fine one day, then had 10 inch groups next day, swapped mounts, bedded gun swapped out scopes, and was back down to a 1 inch group.
Took three years total go get the thing back in working order.( partially my fault as got it back, then did not have a gun to put on) then it still shot terrible, same deal, swap out scopes, send back, wait to install.
Finally fixed.
Ziess just fell apart inside, but it was on a 338RUM, so a bit of a kicker with 300gr bullets
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  #48  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by West O'5 View Post
Forgive my ignorance but Iím having a hard time wrapping my head around how oil can cause your action to move if itís bedded and screwed down to spec.....tight is tight,no??Is it the bedding material itself that might be sliding?
And even if excess oil can cause it to shift a few microns,wouldnít that be barely noticeable to all but the most discriminating PR shooter,as in fractions of MOA?
....and we are talking here about a dramatic 8Ē shift in POI....I donít get it?
It takes a very amount of oil in between the action and bed to mess things up and shift POI continually, no matter how tight or torqued the action screw are.
Same as a small high point in the action or recoil lug.
Cat
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  #49  
Old 09-13-2018, 05:01 PM
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Do you have another set of rings that you can try?

When you tighten the rings down, does the top half touch the bottom half or is there a small gap on each side?

Are the rings lapped? Rings can be lapped too much.

Just spit ballin'
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  #50  
Old 09-13-2018, 06:13 PM
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My money is on a bit of oil between action and aluminum bedding. Seen it happen before. My guess is it shifts around and puts pressure on the guard screws. guard screws need to be floating in the pillars/ stock holes. If one is touching it starts acting like a recoil lug and accuracy goes to Crap. For some reason aluminum and steel doesn't have enough friction under recoil to hold the action from shifting but glass bedding( devcon, j/b weld ) does ??
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  #51  
Old 09-13-2018, 06:41 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by West O'5 View Post
Forgive my ignorance but Iím having a hard time wrapping my head around how oil can cause your action to move if itís bedded and screwed down to spec.....tight is tight,no??Is it the bedding material itself that might be sliding?
And even if excess oil can cause it to shift a few microns,wouldnít that be barely noticeable to all but the most discriminating PR shooter,as in fractions of MOA?
....and we are talking here about a dramatic 8Ē shift in POI....I donít get it?
A friend of mine came to me when his 3/4moa rifle suddenly became a 3moa rifle. I checked the scope mounts, checked the scope with my bore sighter, checked the crown, checked the action screws, and found nothing. When I removed the barreled action from the stock, the bedding area was soaked in G-96 Gun Treatment. He was caught in the rain, so he sprayed G-96 directly on the barreled action, and some ran into the bedding area. I cleaned up the stock and barreled action, reassembled, and once again, he had a sub moa rifle.
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  #52  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:33 AM
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I agree with Cat and Elk. I will bet either screws torqued wrong, oil under action or a cracked stock. Amazing how often I see cracked stocks on guns. Easy to fix, but as long as they are cracked the gun shoots very poorly.
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  #53  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:48 AM
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Serious question, if oil can shift your POI so much does water do the same thing?
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  #54  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:57 AM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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Serious question, if oil can shift your POI so much does water do the same thing?
If you have a wood stock that is exposed to water and swells it will change your poi.
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  #55  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:06 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ctd View Post
Serious question, if oil can shift your POI so much does water do the same thing?
Obviously water doesn't have the same lubricating qualities as oil, so it likely has much less effect. As well, water will evaporate fairly quickly, while oil won't.
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  #56  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:37 AM
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If the screws are tight and the rifle is bedded then there should be no movement. Correct?
Unless it is being caused by hydraulic pressure. Fluid getting between the recoil lug or other hard points and then not compressing normally as it would if it was dry. That should not be much of a factor if any at all if the parts are mated properly.

The wood stock swelling could be an issue.

If your in a steady rain where the rifle is wet all day would rain not cause this same issue.
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  #57  
Old 09-16-2018, 10:58 PM
trailraat trailraat is online now
 
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Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
It takes a very amount of oil in between the action and bed to mess things up and shift POI continually, no matter how tight or torqued the action screw are.
Same as a small high point in the action or recoil lug.
Cat
Thinking about this, would the root cause be that the oil is uncompressable? Essentially a million little microscopic ball bearing trapped beneath the action which can't be tightened adequately due to the uncompressable nature of oil?

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
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  #58  
Old 09-16-2018, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by trailraat View Post
Thinking about this, would the root cause be that the oil is uncompressable? Essentially a million little microscopic ball bearing trapped beneath the action which can't be tightened adequately due to the uncompressable nature of oil?

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
Basically , yes
Cat
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  #59  
Old 09-17-2018, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trailraat View Post
Thinking about this, would the root cause be that the oil is uncompressable? Essentially a million little microscopic ball bearing trapped beneath the action which can't be tightened adequately due to the uncompressable nature of oil?

Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
And, not to over complicate things, but when a round is fired, causing a concussive force, any aqueous product (like water or oil) will begin a "tidal wave" which might cause that to interfere with what a normally "free" barrel might do inhibiting it from moving.

Like a "drop in the bucket".
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  #60  
Old 09-21-2018, 03:47 PM
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Well, four days of running swabs and brushes through the barrel did nothing. I pulled the action out today, the screw that squeezes the recoil lug was not near as tight as the other screws and the front action screw was almost welded in place, damaged the screw getting it out. No oil or anything else between the aluminum rail and action. Have another action screw on order, will post again when it comes in and is mounted.
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