Kowa 664 20-60x vs Swaro 65 HD 20-60x, i got them together

[Stinky Coyote]

The only way i was going to know forsure how the Japanes Kowa 66mm ED glass stacked up against the flagship in the class Swaro 65mm HD was to buy the Kowa and borrow the Swaro. I actually borrowed two identical Swaro's one with the 20-60x eyepiece and the other with the 25-50x wide angle eyepiece but i will focus mostly on the 20-60x models. All three scopes essentially brand spanking new condition. This is a shakedown years in the making in my head, finally got to put my eyes to them today.

The target i put them up against was a 60 km/h speed limit sign at 1885 yards (1.725 km/1725m/1.07 mile). Sun was up, 10:45 am, clear, 7 degrees C.

I paid 1320 plus tax for the Kowa 664 at Robinson Camera downtown cowtown which has always given me good prices on leica/swaro in the past. So not sure what the retail of the Swaro's are both were the STM (straight body magnesiums) but from recollection in the 2700 range from Robinson although i know one was bought for around 1800-2k as a demo or something from cameraland which is a great deal, as it came as new. But lets just say the swaro is worth twice what the Kowa is worth as retail from same store so to speak.

Having both set up, going from eye to eye, i notice a very similar quality/detail, too hard to tell difference right away. Swaro has a colder say more blue-ish hue, Kowa a warmer more yellow-ish hue...but you have to literally go back and forth to see the slight difference...its very slight difference, the both seem very spot on to the actual color of the scene but there is a difference when you look from one to the other. The many pictures i took through both spotters will not show this hue difference its that slight, my pictures give me both colder/warmer images from both depending.

The swaro has a bigger field of view (backed up by the stats below) and the outer edges stay sharp all the way out especially at 20x. I was left with a very strong initial impression from the swaro at 20x and although i don't think i can tell the resolution difference between them on the sign at 1885 yards, that larger fov with sharpness right to the edge did stand out as impressive.

At 60x, again, the larger fov is apparent from the swaro but over and over focusing on the 60 km/h speed limit sign at 1885 yards i could get a slightly better resolution from the kowa, yes some mirage present and i was expecting the swaro to out do the kowa here, and it does with its larger fov and better edge resolution but i could get the kowa to show me a better image of that 60 km/h sign! I have pics but they will be useless on the internet and mostly useless even on the computer. I will try to crop out the sign and get them on here to show what i mean.

I never noticed the field of view advantage or the edge to edge advantage of the swaro until studying the pics at home as i was so focused on that 60 km/h sign at 1885 yards. I knew something turned me on about that initial look through the swaro at 20x and it took some studying to figure out what. Zooming in on the focal point (60km/h sign) on the computer shows essentially identical resolution capability at 20x and as mentioned at 60x the edge went to the kowa over the swaro on both my eyeballs and then back at home on computer zooming on the pics....it was after studying i realized it had to be that larger fov and the edge to edge crispness i admired from the 20x image on the swaro...this advantage a lot less noticeable at 60x.

I guess one could say then the swaro has a bigger sweet spot of optical goodness but the kowa can bear down on a small object and edge out the swaro ever so slightly. At any rate, things were sooooooo close i came away smiling and confirming any research i could find was what i expected. The larger 77mm and 88mm kowas both beat out the 80mm swaro hd's lots of research to find on that and the 88mm kowa is known as the flagship of all sporting spotters period. Unsure of the new swaro's though, maybe the big 95 can whoop up on the kowa 88? I'm sure reviews will be around, but finding out more on the 66mm kowa vs the 65mm hd swaro's was much harder.

Thats all for now on the image capabilities of them. Here is the other side of story. Magnification ring on the 20-60x swaro was easily the stiffest, the kowa about 25% easier, then the 25-50x wide angle swaro another 50% easier again...it spun almost as freely as the helical focusers on the swaro's. Next and what is a bigger point for me is the focuser differences. The kowa runs a traditional focuser knob up top and the swaro's use the big helical focuser. I am used to the traditional focuser so keep in mind. I found it easier, faster, and steadier to focus the kowa. You hold it which must steady it and just run the knob with your finger. The gearing and tension seem perfect on the kowa, combined with less shake it was much easier to dial it in on a tough target at a long distance. The natural for the helical seems to be zero hand contact but just your thumb and finger (bottom and top) of the focuser ring and you can be dainty but back and forth on the same tripod i consistantly found a steadier/quicker more accurate focus...again...i'm used to that system. Sure in cold/snow/gloves the helical might be nicer? I don't mind taking a glove off for a second to focus either...moot? Anyhow, there may also be a way to grab the swaro and just run the wheel with your thumb to steady the image better while focusing. I compared my nikon ed50 to one of these swaro's awhile ago and that was a standout difference for me there also, i do not like the helical focuser at all....preference/personal thing.

Weight, all three spotters with just their factory lens caps on both ends.
Swaro 25-50x 2 lb 15 oz
Swaro 20-60x 2 lb 14 oz
Kowa 20-60x 2 lb 13.5 oz

Field of view (FOV):
Swaro 25/50x at 1000m = 42m and 27m
Swaro 20/60x at 1000m = 36m and 20m
Kowa 20/60x at 1000m = 33.2m and 17.5m


Pretty evenly matched there but one is the lightest of the bunch lol...the kowa may be 1/2" longer overall.....so pretty moot on dimensions and weight...keep in mind this is the magnesium body swaro which i think is a few oz lighter than the aluminum body swaro so the kowa is no sweat the lightweight champ. This should give anyone looking to compare these plenty of info to mull over before breaking out the moula. The kowa is a serious bang for buck piece of glass. I would still agree the king of 65mm glass is the swaro hd but definitely not the bang for the buck champ. I'd be happy with both as they are top end glass. Since i have the kowa, and i could afford the swaro, i will be keeping it happily, i do prefer the focuser knob and generally don't do alot of looking for things with a spotter, use more as a judging tool so the fov differences and around the edge crispness differences don't matter enough to me to make a switch, i gladly make the trade off for the focuser knob and i still get a top of the class resolution when i want to really have a look at something.

A note on the wide angle, its nice, but for a spotter i tend to be focusing on small singular objects to judge so the giant fov is almost a waste on me, image quality/resolution about same as 20-60x for a pure judging tool go for the 20-60x, understand from someone that for digi scoping also choose the 20-60x as the wide angle a bit more fussy on eye ball position being perfect and almost inside the fish eye or bubble if you will so getting cameras to work properly also a little trickier...just what i heard, research that yourself if you like the idea of the bigger fov, i like the 20-60x but there is nothing wrong with the wide angle either. My money would buy the 20-60x.

Here, lets see, tried to crop the two best 60x images from these spotters to the same amount of country but the reality was very similar to the images getting a better definition/less distorted view of that 60 km/h sign, remember, 1885 yards. Top image is swaro, bottom image is kowa, focused on the 60 km/h sign best i could.




Then the spotters together.



Granted also, one test, one day, head to head. Not a lot of time to compare but it was a pretty small target pretty far away and that was really my only goal, i wanted them to struggle and show me some differences.

[elkhunter11]

I own the Kowa TSN 883, and comparing it side by side with the Swarovski HD 80, I found the resolution, and the trueness of color of the Kowa superior. As well, the Kowa did cost less.

[Stinky Coyote]

tough to tell in pics on internet and it was tough to tell in person too, though you could, we are talking pretty minute difference, the sign pretty over run with distortion/mirage, but as i said, in person, i could get a slightly better less distorted more readable image from the kowa....ever so slightly better, a fraction of a fraction....you get the idea, the kowa can play with the big boy

[elkhunter11]

the kowa can play with the big boy

Many people in the optics world consider the Kowa the "Big Boy".

[ishootbambi]

and a lot more would say that leica is king.....and many more would swear its zeiss......

thing is with optics, personal opinion is just too weighed by emotion. the guy that has plunkied down the money for any of them would swear on their kids lives that what they bought was best.

ive said it more than once....id like to see some independant testing by someone unbiased using some sort of precision measuring equipment for light transmission, sharpness, and clarity. i dont even know if that exists.....but i know for sure that human nature does.....

dont forget those that think zenray or vortex are the kings......yeah, ok.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Many people in the optics world consider the Kowa the "Big Boy".

yes, it seems majority of comparisons or even shops where they are sold comment most who compare the bigger kowa to the bigger swaro there is usually more kowas walk out the door than swaro's but its the 65mm class where the swaro holds the top dog title with hardly any data/reviews against the kowa 66 to be found

there is a review linked below that seems to be used alot, some 36 scopes reviewed by 30 people with high level qualification to beginner.....and it seems to follow every other comparison one can find in terms of the bigger kowas and the bigger swaro....the kowa's beat them optically, on the last page there is the ranking chart in pdf form to click on and see how each does in various categories, the two big kowas in 1st and 2nd with the swaro 80 and 65 in 3rd and 4th...and here is a quote from i think page two of the commentary...

All in all, I’m not sure I’m ready to give up my 65mm Swarovski, although I’d love to see one of the smaller 66mm Kowas, which were not sent to us to review.

http://www.allaboutbirds.org/page.aspx?pid=1039#top

and i agree with the quote...that would have been some good feedback on the 66mm kowa should it have made it into that comparo, to have 30 reviewers all at once comparing these scopes and to see where it would have ranked?, would it have been neck and neck with the swaro 65 like the bigger kowas were with the big swaro? could it have bested the 65mm swaro overall? shame it wasn't there, from the few comparisons/opinions i could find from those who did compare the 65/66 swaro/kowa it was promising that the 66mm kowa could run right with the 65mm swaro hd optically, and so from the research i could find it was worth the risk of buying, not to mention i already knew i was not a fan of the helical focuser but i did base the buy on its ability optically as being able to compete at the highest level and i'm not dissappointed, i'm no optical expert, thats why i tried to make it difficult with the small sign at far distance, something legible to actually try and resolve/read rather than just scenery where there is no way i would have been able to tell you about any differences...without the sign i suppose i might have then noticed the bit bigger fov and bit sharper right around the edges?

bambi, totally understand, its all about reading through the lines, i try to do the same when i find reports from people who have compared things i'm interested side by side etc. etc. and i am not biased, i know the swaro is the king of the 65mm class, no one argues that, have no issue with that, i was simply curious to see how the kowa competed through my own eyes and this was this morning, i wrote stuff down right away as its opinion, didn't want to forget details etc. not trying to bias at all, just trying to say exactly what i saw/felt and thats that, the kowa is one heckuva scope if the swaro is the best there is in this class, not sure you would be left wanting with either? I think the biggest thing to differentiate would be do your prefer the helical focuser or traditional...as optically they are both fantastic, the differences there were less of a thing for me, very very close optically and other factors maybe like service/warranty time frames etc.? dealers availability etc.

they are both incredible in my eyes, the helical, bigger fov and sharper around the edges would be worth the extra, for the differences including price, i'm totally good with the kowa, i can use one of the swaro's whenever i want and have in past as its in the family but even after using it in the past i knew i wanted to try and find something without that focuser but optically as good, goal achieved

here you on the zenrays etc. you couldn't pry my leica ultravid hd's for any other bino....this kowa vs the swaro is not like that imo, it feels more like the best from japan vs the best from europe to me...or you get the idea

[Ceilidh69]

Great thread stinky - thanks for all the research and effort that went in to this. Will be in the market for a new spotter soon and this helps a bunch.

[rednk]

I have owned the kowa 664 for a year now, no buyers remorse at all. I did a lot of study before I purchased as well, and was not able to compare side to side. I was able to compare every scope except the kowa, so it was a bit of a gamble. A gamble I would do again in a heartbeat.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by rednk

I have owned the kowa 664 for a year now, no buyers remorse at all. I did a lot of study before I purchased as well, and was not able to compare side to side. I was able to compare every scope except the kowa, so it was a bit of a gamble. A gamble I would do again in a heartbeat.

right on, look at the kowa guys coming out of the woodwork...good to hear, its these 66mm's i had a hard time finding info about so thanks for the feedback!

[SLH]

I picked up a 774 early last year and I'm very happy with the results. I would have liked to try the 66 but at the time I had trouble finding one and I was on a bit of a time line. The 77 is a bit on the big side to pack but with the quality and price of the Kowa I couldn't in any way justify any of the European glass.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by SLH

I picked up a 774 early last year and I'm very happy with the results. I would have liked to try the 66 but at the time I had trouble finding one and I was on a bit of a time line. The 77 is a bit on the big side to pack but with the quality and price of the Kowa I couldn't in any way justify any of the European glass.

i dunno how one goes wrong with kowa or swaro, when you factor in budgets, personal preferences of ergonomics/funtion, and both will give top image performance, if i spent more time searching with a spotter i probably would have gone with a bigger kowa, as kowa seems to have more of what suits me, the price is nice but i really don't get along with the helical focuser having gotten used to the more traditional focus knob

i know the 66 series wasn't updated at the same time as the 77/88 series so the question remained can it run with the swaro as we knew the newer large kowas ran the top of the bigger class, the 66 certainly doesn't get spanked by the swaro and it looks very much to me that it belongs at the top of the class also, can't say it spanks the swaro either, its a tight one and that makes the kowa a good value forsure imo and one to consider in the 65mm class

[Arrowhead]

Digging up this old thread. Where would a person find Kowa optics in Alberta now adays? Robinsons Camera is now out of business and as far as I've been able to find they were the only Kowa dealer in Alberta.

[spellswrong]

pretty sure they were the only dealer there are a few dealers in bc and i think you can get them online from optics planet they ship to canada

[Highcountry]

Pee lee wings nature store in Ontario. Awesome guys to deal with, carry all high end gear got my kowa there and I think they are the cheapest also. I read about them on CGN and they ship a lot of gear out here to hunters, great service would not hesitate to recommend them.

[Norwest Alta]

Good write up stinkin yote. I’m on the fence and thinking about a meopta spotting scope but no one locally sells them.

[Stinky Coyote]

thanks, i still have that 664, been great, i still have my little nikon ed50 also been great, i would upgrade my nikon ed50 pack spotter to the new kowa 550 series if shopping now as it didn't exist when i was shopping

i use the 664 as a truck spotter but do far more bino work than spotter work regardless, window mount bino's, tripod mount bino's...

too bad about robinsons, been going there a long time, was there last year

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Highcountry

Pee lee wings nature store in Ontario. Awesome guys to deal with, carry all high end gear got my kowa there and I think they are the cheapest also. I read about them on CGN and they ship a lot of gear out here to hunters, great service would not hesitate to recommend them.

Good to know...Thanks!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Highcountry

Pee lee wings nature store in Ontario. Awesome guys to deal with, carry all high end gear got my kowa there and I think they are the cheapest also. I read about them on CGN and they ship a lot of gear out here to hunters, great service would not hesitate to recommend them.

I purchased my TSN 883 from Pelee Wings, they were excellent to deal with.

[sillyak]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

thanks, i still have that 664, been great, i still have my little nikon ed50 also been great, i would upgrade my nikon ed50 pack spotter to the new kowa 550 series if shopping now as it didn't exist when i was shopping

i use the 664 as a truck spotter but do far more bino work than spotter work regardless, window mount bino's, tripod mount bino's...

too bad about robinsons, been going there a long time, was there last year

The TSN 550 makes my salivate.

The TSN 550 and 880 use actual Fluorite, the only consumer sport optics that do. (Fluorite is not glass, it is a lab grown crystal. Canon is the only manufacturer, they use it in their high end lenses and a few boutique telescope makers use it as well).

Although the very best ED glass can argueably match Fluorite in the visible wavelengths, it's still the crème de la crème of optic "glass."

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I purchased my TSN 883 from Pelee Wings, they were excellent to deal with.

not much that run with an 883 or 884, likely still haven't been surpassed, that's alpha glass right there

[kman35ca]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Good write up stinkin yote. I’m on the fence and thinking about a meopta spotting scope but no one locally sells them.

Brandon Optics, and Bushcraft Canada sell Meopta spotters. Both in BC. And there is a new meopta dealer I think down east. He's got everything, and decent prices. Just google "Meopta Dealers Canada" he should pop up on top.

they are supposed to be great spotters.