Reloading questions

[hilt134]

so I've been looking into starting reloading. Seems like a fun and useful hobby. My first question is if it actually saves money. I know that would depend more what you shoot. But overall do you save money. Its actually not the biggest reason im interested. Im more interested because of how annoying it is to buy ammo where I am.

My next question is do people reload 30-30 win? I'm having a hard time finding it and I would love to be able to reload some my self. Might not save much but I like the self sufficient aspect to it. I do have plans on buying a 308 or 3006 when I have more cash so this wouldn't be the only cartridge I would use it for

Also where is your guys favorite spots to find out more about reloading be it books or online.

[byronick87]

The money spent on reloading really depends on a few things;
1. Cartridge - obviously, a 223 is much more economical to reload for than a 7mm STW
2. Your level of OCD - If you are like me and you find groups larger than .5 moa to be unacceptable for reloads, you're going to be spending mucho moola finding that right bullet, powder, brass, and primer combo. Mostly from driving back and forth to the range.
3. Your level of curiosity - if you think you can squeeze a group .25moa tighter by changing variables here or there, you're not just burning powder, but time as well.
LOTS of it.

You will save money regardless if you are a plinker, or an occasional practicer. However, If you only shoot 5 rds a year, run the opposite direction and never look back.
The initial cost is high but it evens out eventually.

I reload for 30-30, at $20 a box, why not. Prices are going up across the board. This way you get premium 30wcf ammo for "cheap"
It is hard to find stuff for it tho. Whatever you do, don't buy anything except 30 call round nose; I made the most of trying to feed it ballistic tip bullets and the coal was too long and the action logged up.

Most forums are a good place to find your base loads, but always start at the low end and ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS cross reference the load with a reloading manual; be it the hodgdon website, or Hornady or Sierra or whatever have you.
Trust your instincts

Oh and watch for those double charges

And I would stay away from most Lee products; might be an unpopular opinion, but rcbs and Hornady just has 100x better customer service. You will run into issues guaranteed with any reloading set up; Hornady and RCBS believes you, where Lee wants you to send the stuff in across the border for hard proof. Plus their tolerances are hot garbage - I THINK

[obsessed1]

Depends on amount of ammo you intend to unload. Equipment to reload can be as much as 500- 1200$ for set up. Cost to reload/ round varies but often you will save about 30- 40%/round over factory.
If a factory box cost 30$/20 and you can load the same for 21$/20 you saved 9$. If you spent 800$ on tools/ equipment you need to shoot 89 boxes of ammo to break even. For some who might shoot a box or two a year their cost is 60$/year buying factory which is way cheaper than setting up to reload. If your already shooting 50+ boxes / year it will likely be cheaper in the long run to reload.
That said, I reload and love it. Just be realistic with yourself about cost. There are many other pros with reloading besides cost to consider.

[Dick284]

I started with reloading 30/30, and am still set up to do the same.

On average if you buy your components in bulk and while on sale you can easily cut the cost per round in half, but remember that some heady purchasing like powders and primers in bulk.

Tooling takes a fair out lay of cash to purchase, and like stated above, unless you intend on either having a new hobby, or shooting a whole bunch then pay back on tooling will take quite a while. Keep your eyes open for used reloading gear too.

What I did notice was not so much the cash savings when reloading, but better QA and QC on the ammunition I made, and the ability to shoot more rounds for a given amount of money.

[catnthehat]

You can get into hand loading with a relative minimum amount of cash outlay , but one must remember that for every cartridge one reloads, another set of dies must be bought , possibly another type or caliber of bullet , and other small items .

The cost goes up from there but you are still going to save money and build good ammo.

I had lots of different brands of equipment. For the most part, Lee dies and trimmer systems are number one for me - as well as many other long range match shooters.

My main press is a very old RCBS Rockchucker. I also use Lee hand presses at times, as well as Redding, and RCBS dies.

Cat

[waldedw]

I have been reloading for more than 40 years now, not so much to save money but just because it's a hobby and I enjoy it, it's quiet time in my garage by myself doing something I like. I have no idea the amount of ammo I have loaded and shot over the years but it is in the 10s of thousands, I shot IMHSA for years and every round was cranked out on my single stage press. I also shot over 50,000 handgun bullets that I cast, lubed / sized and gas checked in my garage.

Having said that if you start and have to buy brass, in many cases you can shoot factory ammo cheaper and farm the brass to reload then you will save some money, of course you need to get set up for loading which will set you back $900 or so, don't cheap out on your set up as it will last you a lifetime, the RCBS rock chucker press was my first and only press, still going strong.

You don't need an electronic scale or lots of the new "better stuff" that's on the market now a good basic reloading starter kit will get you going, I still use my 40 year old RCBS balance scale to weigh my powder charges, it is slower than the new automatic electronic models but it works for me.

Reloading is a great hobby and for me very satisfying, I have friends that I reload for as they don't want to, that's fine especially now that I am retired it gives me something to do.

[W921]

I think all you need is press,dies,powder trickled and scale.
Years ago I pulled apart factory Winchester silvertip and power point loads for 170 grain bullets.
Both loads looked like 32 grains of w748.
In pre 64 Winchester's its as good as any.
I'm not up on anything that has came out in the last 30 years.
My cast bullet load is 13 grains of sr4759 behind lyman311291.
30/30 is a nice little gun to pack around. I shot my first deer with it and so did my daughter

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by W921

I think all you need is press,dies,powder trickled and scale.
Years ago I pulled apart factory Winchester silvertip and power point loads for 170 grain bullets.
Both loads looked like 32 grains of w748.
In pre 64 Winchester's its as good as any.
I'm not up on anything that has came out in the last 30 years.
My cast bullet load is 13 grains of sr4759 behind lyman311291.
30/30 is a nice little gun to pack around. I shot my first deer with it and so did my daughter

You do know that factories use powders that we reloaders can’t buy?

What you did here is a road to ruin.

SR 4759 is also now discontinued.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by W921

I think all you need is press,dies,powder trickled and scale.
Years ago I pulled apart factory Winchester silvertip and power point loads for 170 grain bullets.
Both loads looked like 32 grains of w748.
In pre 64 Winchester's its as good as any.
I'm not up on anything that has came out in the last 30 years.
My cast bullet load is 13 grains of sr4759 behind lyman311291.
30/30 is a nice little gun to pack around. I shot my first deer with it and so did my daughter

You also need a way to trim and chamfer cases, once they stretch and become too long for the chamber.

[W921]

Originally Posted by Dick284

You do know that factories use powders that we reloaders can’t buy?

What you did here is a road to ruin.

SR 4759 is also now discontinued.

Why would winchester use something besides w748 or w760?
I didn't know sr4759 was discontinued. I would have to look but I used to buy it I think in 5 pound cans. Super cast bullet powder!
That 748 load that I mentioned before was my standard jacketed bullet load in both pre64 rifles and carbines.
What do you mean road to ruin?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by W921

Why would winchester use something besides w748 or w760?
I didn't know sr4759 was discontinued. I would have to look but I used to buy it I think in 5 pound cans. Super cast bullet powder!
That 748 load that I mentioned before was my standard jacketed bullet load in both pre64 rifles and carbines.
What do you mean road to ruin?

Why do any manufacturers use powder blends that aren't sold as components? But the fact is that they do, and we can't identify specific powders by appearance.

[32-40win]

To set up to reload for one gun, one cartridge is a bit impractical, unless you intend to shoot it a lot. 30-30 can be made cheaper to shoot with cast bullets, but, that also entails more equipt to buy. I'd guess that for most guns, 2000 rds is about where the break even point is on the equipt, some cartridges are more, some are less, also depends on what equipt you buy. In some cases it isn't worth the time spent to reload, as the cost of factory is low enough isn't worth the time & investment, unless you want a specific bullet to use, that isn't available in factory rounds, or you want to try to improve the performance or accuracy of a load. Depends what you want to achieve with that gun, and how much you shoot, and to a lesser extent, what you shoot. It can help you ride out ammo shortages, and can teach you a lot about ammo.

[W921]

I havnt picked up a gun magazine in years so I know I'm not up on prices but you used to be able to do this on the cheap. Lee used to sell really affordable presses and dies. Even n the eighty's you could buy a bottom end Lee press for $20. If your just loading for 30 wcf its really all you need.
What's a trim die cost? You wouldn't need a fancy Forster trimming outfit just for one caliber.
Lee used to sell a hand loading tool for one caliber. I think it just neck sized and used a powder dipper to measure. I never went that route.
Those loads I gave before are safe. You dont need a bunch of different powders and bullets to find something that works.
I'm not arguing or anything,I'm just suggesting that you dont have to tho go out and buy a bunch of top of the line gear all at once. You got a lifetime to upgrade.
I dont know anyone who regrets getting into reloading and what worked years ago still works.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by W921

Why would winchester use something besides w748 or w760?
I didn't know sr4759 was discontinued. I would have to look but I used to buy it I think in 5 pound cans. Super cast bullet powder!
That 748 load that I mentioned before was my standard jacketed bullet load in both pre64 rifles and carbines.
What do you mean road to ruin?

The factories buy their powder buy the box car load, they tailor the factory ammunition loadings to the instrumental velocity they achieve through testing.
If that powder is on the slow side compared to its cousin they sell to us reloaders, and you do the disassemble and replicate trick, you just might have created an over pressure load.
Then you go posting the load on the inter web, and suddenly what’s safe in your rifle (through dumb luck) damages somebody else’s rifle.

Sounds like a road to ruin to me.

Here’s some advice to both yourself and the OP.

Don’t be taking posted loads from the inter web, without verifying its validity through cross referencing bonafide load data, from a current reloading manual, or from the manufactures website. Follow proper load development techniques with starting at a safe published reduced loading from any published maximum load, and working up, checking your results through group consistency and vetted against chronographed velocities.

[W921]

Originally Posted by Dick284

The factories buy their powder buy the box car load, they tailor the factory ammunition loadings to the instrumental velocity they achieve through testing.
If that powder is on the slow side compared to its cousin they sell to us reloaders, and you do the disassemble and replicate trick, you just might have created an over pressure load.
Then you go posting the load on the inter web, and suddenly what’s safe in your rifle (through dumb luck) damages somebody else’s rifle.

Sounds like a road to ruin to me.

Here’s some advice to both yourself and the OP.

Don’t be taking posted loads from the inter web, without verifying its validity through cross referencing bonafide load data, from a current reloading manual, or from the manufactures website. Follow proper load development techniques with starting at a safe published reduced loading from any published maximum load, and working up, checking your results through group consistency and vetted against chronographed velocities.

According to hogdon #26 manual 33 grains is max with 170.
In my 1976 Winchester complimentory reloading manual it lists 32 grains as a suggested load with w748.
In any event I havnt had any troubles with it but you are sapposed to work up to a maximum load.wear safety goggles, hearing protection,etc,etc.
My old,old manuals show hotter loads for imr powders than the newer ones would.
Wonder if they even make powder here anymore or is that even imported from China and repackaged?

[catnthehat]

Here is a list of the very basic tools needed to hand load

1ress
2: shell holder - some die sets come with the proper shell holder some don't
3:Loading dies - a full length die and seating die , and some shooters crimp their lever action ammo, so a crimp die is not totally mandatory but a nice extra
4: some sort of priming device - some presses have a primer built into them, some loaders use a seperate priming tool .
5: trimming system, some are complicated and expensive , some are a simple stuff and cut by hand
6: rebuffing/ chamfering tool- again some are expensive and some aren't
7:vernier caliper
8: some sort of scale either digital or beam
9: small funnel
10: loading manual for the bullets you intend to use

Some people use the Lee classic hand loading tool, this neck sizes the brass , decaps, primes , measures the power ( it comes with a scoop but only certain powders can be used with it and it is non adjustable ) and seats the bullet .
One can make ammo accurate enough to get 1/2 MOA ( I have done it many times).

This is all done with no press, nothing but a hard surface, and a mallet. It is completely safe as long as the instructions are followed. But, the draw back of using this tool is eventually you will have to trim cases and possibly set the shoulder of the case back which you cannot do with this system. You also cannot adjust your powder.

So, I normally recommend the above tools for starters or for a minimum.

Cat

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by W921

According to hogdon #26 manual 33 grains is max with 170.
In my 1976 Winchester complimentory reloading manual it lists 32 grains as a suggested load with w748.
In any event I havnt had any troubles with it but you are sapposed to work up to a maximum load.wear safety goggles, hearing protection,etc,etc.
My old,old manuals show hotter loads for imr powders than the newer ones would.
Wonder if they even make powder here anymore or is that even imported from China and repackaged?

IMR as we knew it is now part of General Dynamics. Hodgdon bought the rights to the name IMR. It’s still made in Quebec.

As for old data vs new data, there was a very good thread posted by Dean2, it explains that copper crusher pressure testing was not very accurate and seldom showed inconsistent pressure spikes.

You also have to remember as the years pass so does the powder burn rate change as there’s zero chance that after 50 or 60 different lots that the burn rate will stay constant.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=381678

You got outhouse lucky, but I certainly wouldnt wear it as a badge of honour, as the pit falls and bear traps in your process far out weigh the benefits.

[32-40win]

There are a lots of us that have old manuals, some are back to the 50's and older. With the changes in pressure measurement, they've found some of the older stuff wasn't quite as safe as they thought it was, and some of the older data was done somewhat haphazardly, and not by actual pressure measurement. Plus, the powders have changed a bit here and there, ie; 760 and H414 are all shown separately in older manuals, not anymore. And there are definitely much improved bullets and powders out there now. Doesn't mean you can't use older data, but, be careful with it. Some guns can't handle the charge weights and speeds they show for newly tested data, some can do a bit better. Manuals are a guideline for the Mean Average Pressure ratings for a lot of powder, in a given cartridge, bullet, primer brass combo, that will produce "acceptable pressures in "all" guns", or at least, in 99.9% of them, in the gun THEY used to test it. Even the factories screw that up occasionally, and powder plants screw up the coating on the batches of powders, or tube cut lengths. Still a somewhat inexact science,but, mostly under control.

[32-40win]

Originally Posted by Dick284

IMR as we knew it is now part of General Dynamics. Hodgdon bought the rights to the name IMR. It’s still made in Quebec.

As for old data vs new data, there was a very good thread posted by Dean2, it explains that copper crusher pressure testing was not very accurate and seldom showed inconsistent pressure spikes.

You also have to remember as the years pass so does the powder burn rate change as there’s zero chance that after 50 or 60 different lots that the burn rate will stay constant.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=381678

You got outhouse lucky, but I certainly wouldnt wear it as a badge of honour, as the pit falls and bear traps in your process far out weigh the benefits.

There is still an article or old post around, with an admission, by Ed Matunas on his using case head measurement to do a manual(s) for Speer up to the 80's. I've posted that article or link, a couple of times before, years ago. I forget where the heck it's from, but it was written by Matunas himself, fully disclosing how it was done that way.

[W921]

I've got a real soft spot in my heat for those old Winchester 30/30s.
They are what they are. But thats pretty good. I'm guessing most game is shot under 100 yards with 150 as being out there. Velocity is low enough that I'm thinking any jacketed bullet will perform perfect.
In its a range it performs great on game.
I'm trying to remember but years ago I think guys used to pull 303 savage 190 grain factory bullets and reload them in the 30/30 for a little extra.
But its great as is. You could probably use some new powder and super sabot bullet( just guessing)in a flintlock if you wanted to improve it but I wouldn't.
I would have to dig out my old records but I'm remembering most iron sighted pre 64 s being 5 shot 2" group guns with an occasional tight chambered one being around 1.25 or 1.5". Thats at 100 yards which I realise is nothing by today's standards but they are just such a nicely built and handy gun to pack around that I love them.

[gunluvr]

Originally Posted by hilt134

so I've been looking into starting reloading. Seems like a fun and useful hobby. My first question is if it actually saves money. I know that would depend more what you shoot. But overall do you save money. Its actually not the biggest reason im interested. Im more interested because of how annoying it is to buy ammo where I am.

My next question is do people reload 30-30 win? I'm having a hard time finding it and I would love to be able to reload some my self. Might not save much but I like the self sufficient aspect to it. I do have plans on buying a 308 or 3006 when I have more cash so this wouldn't be the only cartridge I would use it for

Also where is your guys favorite spots to find out more about reloading be it books or online.

The chances of saving money depends on what your goals are. When I took the plunge my goal was to fill my gun cabinet with as many different cartridge guns as I could afford and to become a better shot overall. I have indeed become a better shot through a lot of practice that I never could have achieved without the benefit of hand loading and the lower cost vs factory ammo. I've also been able to produce more accurate loads than would likely be found with factory ammo.
To me, hand loading opens up possibilities that otherwise aren't realistically obtainable. I have indeed spent a lot of money on guns and shooting, but it's what I enjoy.
If you don't desire to shoot a lot, investing in hand loading would be a waste of money. If you do, enjoy the hell out of it!

[Ariu]

Attached is a small spreadsheet which calculates the costs of reloading and the time to break even. You can play with it and see for yourself.
There are a couple of things to consider.
The reloading costs are usually higher than theoretically calculated, because you will shot more. some other costs not taken into account are trips to the range, spills&accidents, inventory leftovers on bullets and powder and so on.
On positive side you will be a better shooter and have a better ammo.

[6MT]

I believe I've saved some coin hand loading. When you get up to 22 firings from a case (even magnums), the costs do come down.

But I'm not into hand loading to save money. I'm into it because of the inherent accuracy gains and the tailoring of ammo to each firearm.

But...to each their own.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 6MT

I believe I've saved some coin hand loading. When you get up to 22 firings from a case (even magnums), the costs do come down.

But I'm not into hand loading to save money. I'm into it because of the inherent accuracy gains and the tailoring of ammo to each firearm.

But...to each their own.

I do it for both reasons - I have to because I would not be able to afford to shoot the amount I do if I did not hand load and some of my ammunition is not available a factory ammo anyway!
But yes , accuracy first , cost second
Cat