Dog breeding question

[bowhunter36]

I have a female field spaniel/Lab x, her parents were both regestered dogs who met by accident LOL.
So I would like to keep it at that and breed her with a Field spaniel.
The pups will be still cross I know but at least they will not be Hienz 57.uy
should I breed her or should I just get her fixed and buy another field spanial purebread?
I dont mind having lab/spanial x pups, because I know that there grandparents were both show dogs.
???????

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

I'll do my best to explain myself why I say get her repaired. sorry i'm some times not good at these kinda explanations
because you have a cross breed now, even if you breed her to a field spaniel, yer still gonna have cross breed pups, if you want mongrels then by all means cross breed, but if you want pure breads then stick to known registered animals, by cross breeding you never ever get the pure bred line back, and never get the full potential of the breed,
what took decades of careful breeding and planning by others
to build blood lines and a type of breed, and nature of the breed,
just gets undone in one cross breading

[covey ridge]

If it is just a another pup that you want, I think you can buy a better dog than you can breed yourself.

I do not think anyone should produce a litter for just one dog. I would say that applies to pure bred dogs as well

[Smokinyotes]

When I was a kid at 12 years old my dad got me a dog. She was half black lab, 1/4 blue heeler and 1/4 border collie. It was the best bird/ cattle dog you could ever ask for.

[bowhunter36]

Im going to just have her fixed and buy a registered spaniel
Thanks
I know they would have still been cross-breed, but I was going to keep it just the two breeds by staying with a spaniel but I think I'll fix her anyway.

[owllight]

Originally Posted by bowhunter36

Im going to just have her fixed and buy a registered spaniel
Thanks
I know they would have still been cross-breed, but I was going to keep it just the two breeds by staying with a spaniel but I think I'll fix her anyway.

Awesome decision, breeding like that is unnecessary. Too many homeless dogs as it is.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Originally Posted by bowhunter36

I have a female field spaniel/Lab x, her parents were both regestered dogs who met by accident LOL.
So I would like to keep it at that and breed her with a Field spaniel.
The pups will be still cross I know but at least they will not be Hienz 57.uy
should I breed her or should I just get her fixed and buy another field spanial purebread?
I dont mind having lab/spanial x pups, because I know that there grandparents were both show dogs.
???????

Sorry but do your self and the dog a favour and get it spay. First you may not have a H57 but its still a X bred and when you throw a bunch of genes in a blender mix on high and pour you never know what will come out or hoe the traits will manifest in the pups and it's next to impossible to tell with a 8 wk old pup. Second you say the grandparents were both show dogs and you are talking a breed with one of the greatest show/field split in the dog world, If you want a gun dog get one that WILL hunt, not all show dogs hunt and those that I've seen that do aren't very impressive. If you want a good working spaniel. I have been breeding FIELD BRED Spaniels 30 yrs and know a lot of good responsible breeders out your way. Feel free to PM me for names. Have your dog fixed, enjoy her for what she is and get yourself a dog from good solid FIELD lines you wont be sorry

[threeforthree]

You should only breed,to better the breed....good luck on your new pup.

[camping4life]

Get her spayed and rescue a dog.
We don't need to increase the pet population!

[nekred]

Find an RCMP officer and you can get some police dogs....

[redbike]

People who breed dogs for a living or as a serious hobby look at bloodlines and the success of their proposed breeding pairs. In field lines, they want to know whether the progeny of both parents have completed their trials championship - same for show dogs. They also do their best to breed away from known health deficits - in Labs, that is hips, elbows and eyes. They are ruthless in what they will and won't breed to. There is no way you can duplicate that kind of expertise, as it only comes from years of experience. If you want a dog, buy a dog from a reputable breeder; as Curly, Larry and Moe used to say: don't try this at home, kids!

[nekred]

Sorry... joking aside....

I was reading an interesting article that because of updtaed training techniques the quality of breeding has gone down because people can train their dogs instead of breeding it into their line....However in England/Europe there is still more mphasis on breeding than training and so breeding quality has stayed better.

I have seen this and agree... it is amazing the difference I see in some dogs that have come from good lines....

[redbike]

I work for an organization that breeds and trains dogs, nothing to do with gun dogs. The training techniques we use have changed more than completely in the last 20 years. We still pay just as much attention to our breeding program though!

[wwbirds]

was reading an interesting article that because of updtaed training techniques the quality of breeding has gone down because people can train their dogs instead of breeding it into their line....However in England/Europe there is still more mphasis on breeding than training and so breeding quality has stayed better.

I have seen this and agree... it is amazing the difference I see in some dogs that have come from good lines....

male bovine excrement

[densa44]

As far as field dogs/hunters is concerned, a reputable breeder can give the new owner a healthy very good dog, but it will do all the same things free dogs do if you don't train it.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Originally Posted by densa44

As far as field dogs/hunters is concerned, a reputable breeder can give the new owner a healthy very good dog, but it will do all the same things free dogs do if you don't train it.

I am the 3rd generation of gundog breeders/trainers and my Gramps used to have a saying "You can't make strawberry jam from pig poop, but then again you can't make strawberry jam from strawberries either..........at least not without a little bit of work".

[Versatile]

Originally Posted by nekred

Sorry... joking aside....

I was reading an interesting article that because of updtaed training techniques the quality of breeding has gone down because people can train their dogs instead of breeding it into their line....However in England/Europe there is still more mphasis on breeding than training and so breeding quality has stayed better.

I have seen this and agree... it is amazing the difference I see in some dogs that have come from good lines....

I would say it has more to do with the tighter regulations than the training vs no training.

In the DKV yiur not allowed to breed a dog unless a breed warden approves the breeding. There is a list of titles and health clearences they look for before even sending him out to look at your dogs.

However for hunting in North America give me a North American dog.

[aulrich]

This probably breed dependent, but with the lower population V-dogs I would think it is good practice to bring in country of origin animals to deepen the gene pool. Hunting attributes should be close at least with breeds maintaining the same testing standard like dk, dl and dd.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Originally Posted by aulrich

This probably breed dependent, but with the lower population V-dogs I would think it is good practice to bring in country of origin animals to deepen the gene pool. Hunting attributes should be close at least with breeds maintaining the same testing standard like dk, dl and dd.

In the Spaniel world this holds very true. There a re a LOT of good and sought after bloodlines in the UK that are being brought to NA on a regular basis. Tip, my #1 bitch, although born right here in B.C is 100% UK bloodlines with both parents being English Imports, My male(who is 8 generations of my own bloodlines/breeding program) carries about 40% close up UK blood. In the case of Spaniels at least, both the hunting and field trial conditions of the UK make for a slightly different style of dog that (at least in the case of my breeding goals) meld well with the faster more dynamic field trial dogs of North America to produce personal gundogs that are slightly less hi-powered and a bit more trainable by the average hunter with a bit of good dog sense.

[puppyhood1]

For field competition breeding of dogs becomes a serious issue for wanted desirable traits through thoughtful research.
However even pointing dogs in American Field, Field trial game breeders out crossed in the past to different breeds and was present up until the last 10 yrs. ago. However with the advent of DNA testing easily being available thus putting a stop to the practice in active competitive dogs. Certain breed clubs such as Short hairs have used DNA testing longer to discourage this practice. The point is that out crossing dogs has been done with the aim of improving of the breed be it a Pointer, Setter, Short Hair, Brittany or what have you for a long time.
My point anyways is not to encourage breeding for breeding sake but to point out that out crossing has been used to bring in certain traits into breeds that lacked those traits and with some success. So no one should Pooh Pooh a dog just because he/she does not have a piece of paper to indicate their linage..............puphood

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by puppyhood1

For field competition breeding of dogs becomes a serious issue for wanted desirable traits through thoughtful research.
However even pointing dogs in American Field, Field trial game breeders out crossed in the past to different breeds and was present up until the last 10 yrs. ago. However with the advent of DNA testing easily being available thus putting a stop to the practice in active competitive dogs. Certain breed clubs such as Short hairs have used DNA testing longer to discourage this practice. The point is that out crossing dogs has been done with the aim of improving of the breed be it a Pointer, Setter, Short Hair, Brittany or what have you for a long time.
My point anyways is not to encourage breeding for breeding sake but to point out that out crossing has been used to bring in certain traits into breeds that lacked those traits and with some success. So no one should Pooh Pooh a dog just because he/she does not have a piece of paper to indicate their linage..............puphood

I am very familiar with most of the stuff you posted. Different breeds have different traits however many different breeds are tested in competition that favors one breed over the other. In pointing dog competitions where run is what the judges want to see the pointing dogs excel over the versatile breeds.
Those with versatile breeds often breed in desired run and this usually comes by sneaking in a bit of pointer. My suggestion would be if one wants the run of a pointer, get a pointer. The improvements you mention may help the versatile compete with the pointers but is not really an improvement when measure against the desired traits that a versatile dog should have.

A good hunting dog is a good hunting dog no matter what its linage and papers and as such I would never Pooh Pooh such a dog as a hunting companion.

I would say that I would not deliberately do an out cross and breed a litter just to produce one dog. I think that there is more than enough unwanted dogs in the world that are produced by accidental and deliberate cross breedings. Add to that the extreme numbers of registered and papered dogs that are bred by well meaning people.

Today if I was in the market for a good gun dog I would probably search for a reputable breeder or I may search breed specific rescue organizations for a good dog in need of a home. There are lots of them out there.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Originally Posted by puppyhood1

For field competition breeding of dogs becomes a serious issue for wanted desirable traits through thoughtful research.
However even pointing dogs in American Field, Field trial game breeders out crossed in the past to different breeds and was present up until the last 10 yrs. ago. However with the advent of DNA testing easily being available thus putting a stop to the practice in active competitive dogs. Certain breed clubs such as Short hairs have used DNA testing longer to discourage this practice. The point is that out crossing dogs has been done with the aim of improving of the breed be it a Pointer, Setter, Short Hair, Brittany or what have you for a long time.
My point anyways is not to encourage breeding for breeding sake but to point out that out crossing has been used to bring in certain traits into breeds that lacked those traits and with some success. So no one should Pooh Pooh a dog just because he/she does not have a piece of paper to indicate their linage..............puphood

What you say is most definitely true HOWEVER, when outcrossing responsibly and as part of a breeding program it MUST be done by experienced breeder with vast knowlage of genetics and bloodlines. And more importantly the 'cull' process must be utterly ruthless and meticulous records and private stud books kept. That is why the recognized kennel clubs have such stringed requirements for breed development. There is way more to breeding than throwing 2 dogs together when you are breeding breed specific and when it comes to outcrossing the complexity goes up 100s of times.

[Foxton Gundogs]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

I am very familiar with most of the stuff you posted. Different breeds have different traits however many different breeds are tested in competition that favors one breed over the other. In pointing dog competitions where run is what the judges want to see the pointing dogs excel over the versatile breeds.
Those with versatile breeds often breed in desired run and this usually comes by sneaking in a bit of pointer. My suggestion would be if one wants the run of a pointer, get a pointer. The improvements you mention may help the versatile compete with the pointers but is not really an improvement when measure against the desired traits that a versatile dog should have.

A good hunting dog is a good hunting dog no matter what its linage and papers and as such I would never Pooh Pooh such a dog as a hunting companion.
I would say that I would not deliberately do an out cross and breed a litter just to produce one dog. I think that there is more than enough unwanted dogs in the world that are produced by accidental and deliberate cross breedings. Add to that the extreme numbers of registered and papered dogs that are bred by well meaning people.

Today if I was in the market for a good gun dog I would probably search for a reputable breeder or I may search breed specific rescue organizations for a good dog in need of a home. There are lots of them out there.

Truer words were never spoken. I have shot over some great X bred dogs in my 58 yrs of bird shooting, I remember a GSPxLab that was an amazing retriever and flushed like a demon but showed not the slightest inclination to point, a ChessiexIrish Setter that retrieved like a Chessie and would lock up solid on point. That being said just because a dog is a fantastic gundog does not mean that dog should be allowed to pass it's genes along especially when those genes are of mixed origin, because you never know what meld of the genetics will choose to join in the pups.

[puppyhood1]

In pointing dog competitions where run is what the judges want to see the pointing dogs excel over the versatile breeds.

Your correct but it is only one of the traits a judge should be looking for.

Those with versatile breeds often breed in desired run and this usually comes by sneaking in a bit of pointer. My suggestion would be if one wants the run of a pointer, get a pointer.

True but pointers in the 1800's were breed out to Setters to get some run and speed in them and one could argue that practise occasionally still exists with certain lines of pointer.

The improvements you mention may help the versatile compete with the pointers but is not really an improvement when measure against the desired traits that a versatile dog should have.

Well as someone that started with Wirehairs 30 years ago I can tell you that most of the North American Wirehairs (GWP) today are used for bird work both upland and waterfowl by hunters and that is a small percentage of the original intention of the breed. So the north American GWP have tended to compete in those focuses even NAVHDA focus is directed more to bird work/retrieving and a very little tracking. The VDD although a small group of dedicated hunters/trainers still strive for the traditional standards which in reality most hunters don't utilize. GWP's in certain circles are and remain competitive in pointing dog trials because they have breed for those upland traits for almost 60 yrs.

A good hunting dog is a good hunting dog no matter what its linage and papers and as such I would never Pooh Pooh such a dog as a hunting companion.

Agreed.


Today if I was in the market for a good gun dog I would probably search for a reputable breeder or I may search breed specific rescue organizations for a good dog in need of a home. There are lots of them out there.[/QUOTE]

If I was in the market for a gun dog I would find what there is out there that best describes what my ideal is and then ask questions as to where that dog came from. I think todays owner only has one maybe two dogs so I think it is very important to make good choices as you will have to live with that choice/dog for a considerable length of time. Rescue dogs though they need a good home would be my last choice for a hunting dog!

.....puphood

[Foxton Gundogs]

Good intelligent give and take here I like it

[nekred]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

male bovine excrement

I was just passing on information I read in the article... is your issue with the content of the article or my opinion that I agreed with the article....

Thanks for the enlightening post... and good to see you are a sponsor and thus have a business that I obviously will choose to stay away from...

[wwbirds]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but after 35 years breeding dogs in Canada I think any such generalization is very unlikely. there are more good labs, goldens, chessies, pointers and setters in a couple states of the US than in all of Britain. Our gene pool, data bases and number of quality breeders in North America is second to no one.
Our biggest problem in NA is unregulated back yard breeders who screw up the gene pool and thus the reputation of the breed trying to make a few quick bucks rather than trying to improve the breed.

Overall quality is still as good as or perhaps even better than overseas. Specific breeds? Hungarian visla not enough here so tough to compare but with most breeding stock coming from Europe within 1 or 2 generations couldn't see how gene pool could be adversely affected so quickly.
Problem with some of these articles they take specific theory on one breed and expand it to include "all" without any proof or substance but it makes for interesting reading and then people repeat it as gospel truth.
Just like reading it on the internet it must be true.

No longer a sponsor but thanks anyway!

[nekred]

Fair enough! that was a far more enlightening and academic post and you are right about the generalizations....

One of the worst i have seen is with Golden retrievers where because of the "show dogs" and the focus on coat and colour and esthetics, the brains have been bred out of some that bear the name Golden Retreiver.... same thing I fear will happen with the border collie which is what I am very familiar with....now that they are accepted into teh Kennel Club vs. being registered as working dogs that other traits will become more desirable than what the breed was meant for which is herding sheep in rough country. People love the dog and want one for their intelligence but don't like their energy level and so there is pressure to change the breed from what it was but still call it a border collie...

The spin of the article was good in the sense that the desirable attributes of the dog were more a result of training rather than breeding which allowed the dog to be bred reslting in lower breeding quality.

Part of this was also attributed to what you mention about the proliferation of unregulated backyard breeders in North America as well.

[nekred]

As for the sponsor comment.... Sorry!

You still show as a sponsor!...

[Pudelpointer]

Under WWBirds is says "AO sponsor".