Convince me "hunting" coyotes makes sense

[beansgunsghandi]

I think that "hunting" coyotes has far less to do with "predator" control than people simply going out and blasting animals for the "fun" of it. Same with gophers. It's just wrong to me, and in fact messes up the whole system. Kill coyotes, more gophers, rabbits, etc, how complicated is this to see? Poison gophers, hawks eat poisoned gopher, more gophers...

Everything I have read or seen tells me that killing off coyotes does not in the long-run or even in the seasonal short run make a significant difference in area populations. To put it another way, all the "I'm controlling predators" arguments are pretty much worthless unless supported by some research or even common sense.

"While coyote control can be effective in eliminating specific individuals, it will not help reduce local populations. Coyotes have a compensatory, density‐dependant breeding rate. Killing coyotes disrupts population structure causing more coyotes to breed and have larger litters. Coyotes will also quickly
fill into vacated habitat from adjacent areas. For these reasons, eradication efforts frequently lead to increases in local coyote populations."

There is a lot of research out there that says pretty much the same thing. If anyone here remembers the hunter ed course there's a similar logic applied as to why we can hunt deer etc. within reason; the population will expand to the carrying capacity of the eco system. Kill a bunch of coyotes, you'll end up with more.

Part of my family has ranched for many generations. I'm not in that business myself, but I've spent a fair amount of time working on that ranch, and I've seen problems with coyotes so I don't think I'm naive. I just don't think the research or even historical record supports killing coyotes in the near-random manner that's currently practiced.

But show me some research that randomly killing coyotes reduces predation long-term, I will genuinely look at it and think about it, and if the evidence supports randomly killing coyotes (or gophers) I'll change my mind. So come on, show me that shooting coyotes makes sense or actually does anything positive at all. I can see shooting a coyote or pack that is genuinely threatening your stock during calving season or even your own dog or something but as a policy, no. Right now anyone shooting coyotes randomly is the same in my book as any person who kills any animal for the fun of it, a sick bastart.

Oh, and I'm not an "anti," I hunt hard and work for hunter access as my past posts show.

[Pioneer2]

Sounds like you've already made up your mind why bother with a debate?Harold..........over population leads to mange and a lingering death.Easy to kill pests like gophers satisfy those into bloodletting with sheer #'s of targets

[jaylow?]

who cares what you think, get back to your hacky sack game hippie. shoot em all!

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

I think that "hunting" coyotes has far less to do with "predator" control than people simply going out and blasting animals for the "fun" of it. Same with gophers. It's just wrong to me, and in fact messes up the whole system. Kill coyotes, more gophers, rabbits, etc, how complicated is this to see? Poison gophers, hawks eat poisoned gopher, more gophers...

Everything I have read or seen tells me that killing off coyotes does not in the long-run or even in the seasonal short run make a significant difference in area populations. To put it another way, all the "I'm controlling predators" arguments are pretty much worthless unless supported by some research or even common sense.

"While coyote control can be effective in eliminating specific individuals, it will not help reduce local populations. Coyotes have a compensatory, density‐dependant breeding rate. Killing coyotes disrupts population structure causing more coyotes to breed and have larger litters. Coyotes will also quickly
fill into vacated habitat from adjacent areas. For these reasons, eradication efforts frequently lead to increases in local coyote populations."

There is a lot of research out there that says pretty much the same thing. If anyone here remembers the hunter ed course there's a similar logic applied as to why we can hunt deer etc. within reason; the population will expand to the carrying capacity of the eco system. Kill a bunch of coyotes, you'll end up with more.

Part of my family has ranched for many generations. I'm not in that business myself, but I've spent a fair amount of time working on that ranch, and I've seen problems with coyotes so I don't think I'm naive. I just don't think the research or even historical record supports killing coyotes in the near-random manner that's currently practiced.

But show me some research that randomly killing coyotes reduces predation long-term, I will genuinely look at it and think about it, and if the evidence supports randomly killing coyotes (or gophers) I'll change my mind. So come on, show me that shooting coyotes makes sense or actually does anything positive at all. I can see shooting a coyote or pack that is genuinely threatening your stock during calving season or even your own dog or something but as a policy, no. Right now anyone shooting coyotes randomly is the same in my book as any person who kills any animal for the fun of it, a sick bastart.

Oh, and I'm not an "anti," I hunt hard and work for hunter access as my past posts show.

So what's the problem then?(see bolded) And I'm not a "sick bastart"

[airbornedeerhunter]

This is just more fuel for the anti's! Fighting amongst ourselves over who does what and what so and so thinks about what the other guy is doing in the woods legally. If you don't want to hunt and shoot yotes and gophers--don't. I don't necessarily agree with all "types" of hunting, but I don't care because, if it does'nt appeal to me I just don't partake in it and stick to what I enjoy doing in the bush and not worry about what the other guy is doing. There's a saying at work that has served me well over the years----"STAY IN YOUR LANE BUD'S"

[Marlin xl7]

Well, ranchers I know that have problems with coyotes say, " shoot all of them" , I can see it when it is calving season, but personally I enjoy hunting coyotes and regularly don't try to take all of them out of a certain area. Just enough so they are not a large problem. Even taking 2 coyotes off a ranch is usually enough to keep the dogs away. For example, on my own farm, we have shot quite a few coyotes, and now when they see the truck from a few miles away they are on the run for the neighbours place, they used to act like they didn't see us, and at one point they were becoming fairly aggressive towards humans. Since we have been shooting the coyotes we have also seen an increase in ducks, geese, and deer that are on the ranch. Sure there are still some coyotes around, there always will be, that will not change anytime soon, but at least now they are not as aggressive.

As for the actual hunting of coyotes, as I said before I really enjoy it. A lot of prep work and time go into hunting coyotes ( usually ), scouting, calling, and deceiving these smart animals is quite a chore. I do it to keep my hunting skills sharp during the off season, sometimes I will call, and other times I will try to make a stalk on one with my bow.

[Lone_Wolf]

I won't voice my opinion, though I do see both sides of this topic, however I do know threads like this always cause a big fight and hard feelings. Wouldn't be a bad idea for a mod to lock 'er up before it gets out of control.

[NBFK]

I love the color red there is no other color I would ever love. Red is the coolest color in the world. Now convince me that pink is best color my minds not made up at all......why don't you google it if your that concerned. A lot of the cattle farmers land I hunt on tell me to shoot coyotes if I want to hunt there. Nothing beats the sound of a ballistic tip hitting a yote. Did I mention I don't like this thread? Convince srd to protect coyotes if you think were sick!

[TreeGuy]

I'd have happily attempted to try and convince you BBG. Unfortunately, you had to puncuate a well written post with.....

Right now anyone shooting coyotes randomly is the same in my book as any person who kills any animal for the fun of it, a sick bastart.

Signed,
Just Another Sick Bastart

[220swifty]

Oh, and I'm not an "anti," I hunt hard and work for hunter access as my past posts show.

How the hell do you hunt tofu?

I guess i'm a sick bastart too. Gonna enjoy the Christmas break killing the coyotes for fun.

[beansgunsghandi]

Thanks for the reasonable replies. I'm not calling anyone a "sick bastart," I'm saying that's how I feel about the act of randomly killing something, and that's what I see going on with coyote hunting. Edit: I can see how it looks like that to someone reading the comment, my apologies for the comment. I'd edit it if I could.

I get that people enjoy hunting coyotes, they must or they wouldn't do it. I don't take enjoyment out of killing animals for no reason; surely there are some reasons to randomly kill coyotes that make sense? I am seriously, genuinely open to the idea, I just want to see some real evidence.

Here's some more thought on the subject: "When dealing with coyote conflicts, history shows "bounties" or "culls" are not effective. Most coyotes removed under these programs are the easy-to-catch juveniles or transient animals passing through an area, not the breeding adults that are most often the problem. In addition, programs such as "bounties" don’t target the specific animals causing the conflict or problem in specific areas, but rather indiscriminately target all coyotes across a broad region"

It's not a pink vs. red discussion at all. Let's see some evidence. I've presented some, no one else has.

[praire hunter]

after having to put down a couple hour old calf that a coyote got ahold of and ripped its back end apart, i have no problem shooting any coyote that comes within range.

[Frans]

There are arguments, but I'm with Treeguy on this one.

[huntinstuff]

Frankly, I don't think it is up to anyone here to "convince" you or "show you the evidence".

If it is something you are willing to research yourself, go ahead. I'm sure you will find everything you need out there somewhere. Then perhaps you will share your study with us. If not, you will at least have satisfied your curiosity.

All my best and Merry Christmas

[M70]

"In the September 2009 O.F.A.H. News Update, O.F.A.H. Biologist Ed Reid “suggests that the increase in coyote-human conflicts reflects two things: when prey is abundant, coyote numbers increase. Reid also thinks coyotes and ‘brush-wolves’ appear to be losing their natural wariness in areas where they are not hunted.” Reid is then quoted as saying that “[t]he greatest benefit of hunting coyotes may not be the reduction of their numbers, but the impact hunting has on their ‘education’. Hunted coyotes are more wary of people and our enterprises and livestock.”

Source: Ottawa Sun

(The OFAH is the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters.)

The aggressive coyotes that come near my yard might get a chance to get "educated" if I miss.

[220swifty]

OK, we will pretend you didn't just call all the recreational coyote hunters here 'sick bastards' (that is how it is acutally spelled), and I will entertain you with a logical response.

Aside from coyotes being vermin, and fun to hunt, there is a logical reason to hunt them. Lets just pretend for a minute that you read anything but anti-hunting propaganda, and that killing several breeding animals will not reduce the population. If you read the thread that 'wwbirds' has going right now, you will notice that he shoots coyotes on his property because he raises game birds, and coyotes threaten them. You will also notice that the dogs used to frequent the area immeadeatly around his house, and bird pens. They do not anymore because he has upheld a "shoot them on sight" policy, and educated the survivors that entering his yard is certain death.

The ranchers that specifically ask me to shoot their coyotes know that if i hunt near the feedlots and farmyards, less coyotes are willing to come in and see what they can grab. I am killing a few and educating the rest. That being said, i never kill them all, i like to leave some for seed.

[beansgunsghandi]

Nobody has to show me anything, agreed, but it's an honest question. So far there's not much in any response to support randomly killing coyotes, or that doing such is a "proud" achievement in any way beyond perhaps marksmanship. There are many people on here who have killing coyotes as a way of life and history (many in my family as well), but that doesn't make doing something right.

[catnthehat]

I used to hunt a sheep , cattle , and a turkey farm, as well as smaller operations as well.
The farmers wanted the coyotes shot as much as possible, especialy, the sheep farmer.
I've seen coyotes feeding on newborn calves and lambs, and feel no guilt in shooting them.
One sheep farmer I now down south hats coyotes so much that he shoots them at anytime , under the yard lights, headlights, on the range road, whenever he can.
I hunt coyotes because I can, and having the opportunity to help at the same time was a bonus.

They do not coexist with livestock as some would have you think, they are predators.

If you do not want to shoot them, fine, don't .
But don't come here under the premise that someone is going to try and justify killing them.
We won't .
Cat

[beansgunsghandi]

Thanks for that 220, and I'll try to respond later, dinner now. I do know how to spell bastard.

[uglyelk]

If you don't want to shoot them then just run over them with your quad!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

While coyote control can be effective in eliminating specific individuals, it will not help reduce local populations. Coyotes have a compensatory, density‐dependant breeding rate. Killing coyotes disrupts population structure causing more coyotes to breed and have larger litters. Coyotes will also quickly fill into vacated habitat from adjacent areas. For these reasons, eradication efforts frequently lead to increases in local coyote populations."

Is that a scientific fact or just your opinion? If it's a scientific fact then the bounty that they had in Sask last year was pointless. Personally, I would expect that if enough coyotes were killed it would take awhile for the numbers to get back to where they were. Assuming of course that coyotes would still not be able to have litters of 30 pups at a time. Anyone know if there's any noticeable change in the numbers in Sask or if last years bounty was effective at all?

Some opinions are best not heard. Especially on a hunting forum if it's condemning a particular type of hunting. Unless, of course, you're reeeeally bored!

[Jamie]

I hunt for the sake of hunting.. Not for the meat, but for the ability to hunt.
And that includes the want to hunt anything that is legal.

I wonder if I am also a "Sick Bastart"?????

Jamie

[schian]

ok guys, dont hate on me, i'm just posing a legitimate question for buddy that started this thread.
does hunting deer or moose or bear or geese or anything make any more sense or have any more of a logical reason than hunting coyotes?
i think of all things hunting 'yotes makes the most sense.

[garand]

I will not be so quick to discredit you BBG.

I personally feel that hunting coyotes for predator control is not only ethical, but an important part of the "present day" management of the species within the ecosystem.

I have not researched much published literature on the dynamics of the population, but have seen some of the things you mention with my own observations hunting them for the better part of 20 years. And I think my anecdotal observations of prairie populations would be as valid as a reference to published papers on coyotes in the boreal areas of Ontario or the Pacific Northwest in the USA. To consider these as legitimate references to population dynamics to Prairie populations would be a mistake.

It is true that they have the ability to vary the litter of pups as a response to external stimuli. The areas that were hunted hard in the 80's indeed often held large pockets of pups as opposed to areas now where often I have encountered older animals with worn teeth. The general levels of those populations are quite high now though, likely as a direct consequence of fur prices tanking.

I never saw a coyote with mange in the wild as a kid. Now it is commonplace. A more serious and ugly way to go I can not imagine. This is a concern to folks who raise cattle (as you likely know) as another degrading factor that makes cattle difficult to ship. To spare a coyote that death and to prevent your livestock from contracting mange is reason number one.

Predation on domestic animals. When I was a kid in the 80's we never once lost a calf to coyotes. Some ducks and a goose when the pond froze over, and the odd chicken. Now that same farmstead can't keep chickens, and in fact farm cats don't last more than a couple of weeks. Likely due to densities being higher again, due to low fur prices. May also be due to the increased occurrence of things like mange, and a less vigorous population that is more inclined to source food from domestic sources. Reason two.

Lack of natural predation. Wolves just don't exist on the prairie to the degree they once did. Go to areas of the foothills with high wolf density and tell me how many coyotes you see. Reason three.

Coyote fur is sustainable, and a heck of a lot better for us the environment etc that synthetic clothing. Even if it is not highly lucrative and not cool in the eyes of the antis it is a heck of a lot closer to a sustainable use of a natural resource. Reason four

They are the best practice for learning to shoot running game. Probably not a big seller to you, but I know it created many a crack shot on the prairie. Reason Five.

They are great to eat. Actually I can't even type that with a straight face.

I know two things that no scientific paper could refute. In the 80's there were way less coyotes and we had way less issues. Hides brought big money, and they were hunted hard. Guys made up to 300 bucks apiece when new pickups could be bought for around a dozen coyote hides.

Pump those bounties up to 250 bucks apiece like hide prices were at one time and lets see whether they are effective.

garand

[garand]

Originally Posted by Jamie

I hunt for the sake of hunting.. Not for the meat, but for the ability to hunt.
And that includes the want to hunt anything that is legal.

I wonder if I am also a "Sick Bastart"?????

Jamie

You should try coyote meat......now that would make anyone a sick bastart

Sorry I couldn't resist

[elkhunter11]

Thankfully,we don't need to convince you in order for us to hunt coyotes and ground squirrels.

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

I think that "hunting" coyotes has far less to do with "predator" control than people simply going out and blasting animals for the "fun" of it. Same with gophers. It's just wrong to me, and in blah blah blah

Yet another misled Canmore resident.
Humans occupy a role in the eco-system (food chain).
Predators ALWAYS kill lesser predators.

Merry Christmas Beans.

[Duramaximos]

I won't weigh in on this thread because I believe it is vital for all hunters and outdoorsmen to avoid in-fighting. It's been mentioned here before but bears mentioning again and again until it sinks in: fissures among outdoorsmen is what antis will leverage to slowly abolish what we all hold dear.

This might be a topic for another thread but I strongly believe the site adminstration should enact rules against this sort of behaviour, freedom of speech be damned, and if you don't like the rules take it elsewhere.

[garand]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Is that a scientific fact or just your opinion? If it's a scientific fact then the bounty that they had in Sask last year was pointless. Personally, I would expect that if enough coyotes were killed it would take awhile for the numbers to get back to where they were. Assuming of course that coyotes would still not be able to have litters of 30 pups at a time. Anyone know if there's any noticeable change in the numbers in Sask or if last years bounty was effective at all?

Some opinions are best not heard. Especially on a hunting forum if it's condemning a particular type of hunting. Unless, of course, you're reeeeally bored!

Short term it is right if you bust up pack dynamics that subordinates will breed and cause a "increase". Anyone that hunts them knows it is easy to clean up the pups than the more seasoned dogs though. You turn that tide pretty quick. And there is more shooting

[Traps]

I agree with the OP. I hunt things I can eat, if I can't eat it then there is no point in shooting it. Killing for the sake of killing or "because I can" is a hollow statement. Its has little sustenance. Satisfaction by the individual in ending a life is for no other reason other than the anthropogenic basis that coyotes are bad. Try that argument with an anti-hunter and you'll soon see why hunters get a bad rap and we are painted with such distaste.

It was never human nature to kill something and leave it. The only time I can see hunting these animals is if they are influencing a livelihood.