Ethics v.s. Laws v.s Comon Sense

[Snap Shot]

Legal light isnt that dark just to give an opinion... And walking 200yrds isnt that far 3 minutes at a real slow trot...But thats my opinon... But i got a question how many ppl would dispatching a wounded animal just after legal light..? I know i would but that breaking the law too..

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Snap Shot

Legal light isnt that dark just to give an opinion... And walking 200yrds isnt that far 3 minutes at a real slow trot...But thats my opinon... But i got a question how many ppl would dispatching a wounded animal just after legal light..? I know i would but that breaking the law too..

That's a more interesting question than the first one. That's where law and ethics really clash

I'm pretty sure the laws regarding hunting hours are not an attempt by Big Brother to control our thoughts and religious beliefs. Certainly there is lots of room for discussion and debate on many hunting issues but openly flaunting breaking the law is not productive nor indicated. These are not repressive laws but laws to protect our wildlife and in this case, to protect hunters in the field. Our system of government still has provisions for changing laws and each year there are changes made to the Wildlife Act through resolutions from organizations like AFGA, ABA, Hunting for Tomorrow etc. Breaking laws for personal gain makes you a criminal. There is nothing noble about being a poacher.

[Bull Shooter]

Walleyes, so you believe or postulate that it is common sense to shoot the Bull Moose knowing that you are committing an illegal activity? And the justification for the action is that you have a tag for a Bull Moose and spent time and money for the opportunity to hunt a Bull Moose so you are entitled to take one whether it is legal or not? Let’s expand the scenario, without all the complications of the several thousand dollar trip and $3000 Zeiss binoculars. You are unable to locate a Bull Moose during the legal season and are forced to “eat your tag”. Lo and behold, three weeks after hunting season, and in the same zone you were originally drawn, you come across a bull. You still have your tag. Does common sense dictate that you can shoot the animal and if your answer is “No” what has changed your opinion? Regards, Mike

[Walleyes]

I would have to say no... Again its to what degree do we feel comfortable with bending and or breaking the rules... Being out of season is way to far...
Again guys its not necessarily me in this scenario but put you're self in it.. The question was 'what would you do if faced with the decision'..

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

I would have to say no... Again its to what degree do we feel comfortable with bending and or breaking the rules... Being out of season is way to far...

Shooting after dark is out of season.....and I really cant beleive the crap I'm reading about 'how far you want to bend or break the rules'. Do you sit down and decide which Criminal Code offenses are worth bending? There is no bend....you either are a law-breaker or you're not....

[Rugersingle]

Certainly you can...the law is the law. There are no grey areas in the law, what it says in black and white IS the LAW. If you "choose" to exceed the posted speed limit you are a lawbreaker. And when you get stopped , do you have a lengthly discussion with the officer about what "you think" the limit should be? One KM or 30 KM/hr is still over the limit. Now..each officer has some personal discression as to how he enforces the law but ultimately the law IS the LAW. And this discression can cause more than a few problems, here's where our "moral" quandry raises its head. Do you enforce for 1 km over the limit? And there are days when driving the posted limit is driving too fast, you can still get a ticket for that, EVEN THOUGH you were under the posted limit. Kinda the same as..legal shooting time 17:00 + 1/2 hr = 17:30. However, today its storming pretty bad and in your "opinion " you can no longer clearly verify your target @ 17:15. So you start walking back to your vehicle, your buddy shoots, your watch says 17:25. Now you have a "moral" decision, Do you congratulate him, if he was successful. or..do you rag him for being for doing something that was "unethical", in your opinion? As an individual you make the choice, the LAW is happy.
As noted there are avenues to change the laws if you dont agree with them. Most are rather lenghtly and require a huge comitment to see them to fruitation.
The decision to break the law is a "moral decision" it has nothing to do with the law.
Moral discussions are good, everyone has an opinion and everyone has their limits as to what they find acceptable however...the law remains the law. There is no discussion about that..unless you are in court and care to try and explain "your personal Moral ethics" to the judge.

[Walleyes]

Do you sit down and decide which Criminal Code offenses are worth bending? There is no bend....you either are a law-breaker or you're not....

I certanly hope you never ever have a couple beer at a freinds or 3 glasses of wine and drive home... I hope you never speed.. I hope you never use you're gun to scope out an animal... I hope you live like Christ himself after stating what you said...

[Rackmastr]

Did I say that I dont break the law? No....but I'm not ignorant enough to think that you can BEND a law, and I'm not out there posing a question on when its okay to break the law.

Yes, I speed...but I am BREAKING the law, and it is wrong.

Do I drive while impaired or over the legal limit? Most definatly not. Use my gun to scope out an animal???? If I'm hunting, thats perfectly legal thanks....but if you're talking about target identification, then no...I use a pair of binos if I'm unsure what I'm lookin at.....

Start a thread called "When are you too drunk to drive home, or when is it important enough to drive home impaired?"

You seem to think that if someone doesnt agree with your way of posing questions about breaking a law that he thinks he acts like Christ? Take a step back and realize that you're posing questions on a HUNTING board about when its okay to POACH......

Maybe one titled..."Is .09 really that impaired?"

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

NOT saying this is your intent Dick, but that argument is the one that's always used to silence dissent and free speech... Must not question the war... our party... our church... whatever. Reasonable people know you can have reasoned civilized discussion, and that its necessary in a democratic society.

Your right not my intent, I feared this thread was going down the all too often travelled road of "I'm a more morally pure hunter than you" path.
That is what divides our cultre as sportsmen.
Discussions are great especially if they lead to enlightenment.
But if they turn into a I'm a purest cause I hunt a certain way, and your not cause you hunt another way, I want to give heed in that case.

5 minutes or 5 km/hr, the law is clear, but it's un likely the officer on the scene will push it unless............................................ ( fill it in in your own way)
But ultimatly your the person that's gonna have to attone to your choice either way.

[packhuntr]

Rack, dont take personal offence to this thread. I see what hes trying to address, but think it might have been a bad exsample is all. Mabey something like someone else pointed out, like a fish that wanted to eat, and took a swipe at the lure, but missed and was foul hooked in the cheek or something. And do note, that FOR SURE, be it right or wrong, there are some laws that just dont make any sense in the least. Not nessesarily to do with hunting or fishing, but i think you get the point. And absolutely there are tricky ones to enforce. Its a beautiful thought/dream, to say its always black and white, but you just have to be realistic. Hes only trying to promote conversation and thought.

keep a strain on er.

[Rackmastr]

Oh I understand the point of the thread, and by no means take it personally at all.....I think everyone knows that the laws ARE black/white....its just up to each individual to decide if they want to break them or follow them......and having a discussion on when its 'okay' to break them is just kinda funny I think.....

[Bull Shooter]

To be honest, it really worries me that there are individuals that might, under the circumstances of the scenario, consider shooting the Bull Moose or think that it is okay. While there may be varying levels of significance, illegal is illegal and should not be rationalized or justified with ethical or common sense situations without a clear understanding of the legal consequences.

Under the scenario, I would never take the shot.

To further advance the discussion: If you witnessed such a shot taken by an unrelated hunting party (to get away from the emotional comments of hunting with friends) would you report the action to Fish & Wildlife? I would. Regards, Mike

[packhuntr]

I also absolutely would report something like that. I think an action as such would in my mind be a blatant disregard for both the safety of the animals one is persuing, and that of anyone who may be in the area. Heck, alot of things can change in an awful hurry, you just cant take those risks when using a tool such as a firearm.

keep a strain on er.

[CNP]

The context in which you use tese terms doesn't make much sense. Common sense should play into abiding by the law, ethics is having respect for the law....and the law is the law. You cannot use terms like common sense or ethics to defend yourself after breaking the law. These terms are more about abiding by the law, not breaking it. This is not a good common sense analogy.

[Jamie]

I think someone feels Guilty.

How does it go... "Doth does protest to much"?
As for your comparisons...
They are like comparing A bank robbery to takeing a grape at the grocery store.
After dark is much worse than shooting from a hood of a truck.
But once again its all about your ethics. No one can tell you what they are. You just know. And you also should know your hunting partners.
You pull that crap in our camp you find yourself with a quick ticket to back home.(Shooting after dark)

Jamie

[TreeGuy]

Walleyes....Walleyes.....Walleyes! You can't say I didn't warn ya!

Dick284, thank you for the pic! It's a great one for sure!

Don't get your backs up too much guys. He was posing a hypothetical scenario in order to generate a lively conversation. He has been succesful in his endevour, and I for one say congradulations. There is nothing wrong with a good debate, and often the one's regarding ethics can always be sticky, but in the end the law is clear. Don't break it, period, end of story.

With that being said, however there will always be grey areas. Many times it has been too damn dark for me to ethically shoot a half hour BEFORE sunset, and conversly, on clear and full moon nights with todays quality optics it is quite possible to take a safe shot a half an hour AFTER legal shooting hours. IMHO

The law is the line for me and I do everything in my power to know just where that line stands.

Oh Walleyes, one last thing.....

Tree

[IginlaOutfitting]

thats why people hunt with a treaty or metis, shoot it right, its a party hunt.
I dont agree with it but my dad would definately shoot it for a buddy, I want to hunt my own moose. I f my dad got caught he would say yes I shot it and a lot of wardens would go easy on it. when you lie about it gets complicated.

[CNP]

I don't get it........why does anybody feel the need to confess or condone disregarding the law for personal gain... on the internet, for everyone to hurl their judgement upon you. Unless you really like the abuse lol......or worse (used as evidence against you). This is not to single-out one person but anybody in general.

[Okotokian]

This has really gotten me thinking... The law is indeed the law... but we all break laws. Which ones we break seems to me to depend on the community (in the larger sense) that we reside in. I speed, because it's accepted in the circles I'm in. My friends wouldn't treat me like an outcast because I got a speeding ticket. I look around on the Deerfoot and everyone else is going over too. Drinking and driving was fine too when I was 18, but not now.

As for hunting regulations, I'm now in communities like this board where they are accepted and supported. I'd be embarassed to knowingly break them, knowing the reaction I'd get here... and that affects me even though I might never tell anyone. I just have a different sense of right and wrong now. I was a solitary hunter when I started. Didn't know or talk to anyone else about it. I might have done some things I wouldn't do now.

So in a way, these discussions are good. They reinforce the community stance on these issues.

[Pred@t0r]

Great discussion! This is proof that we don't all think alike. Talk about opening a can of worms, way to lighta match in a gas filled room Walleyes!!

My measely 2 cents...

Laws are there for our benefit as well as the animals we hunt. 99% of the time they are reasonable. We all know we should obey them, and that is what we call "common sense". However, common sense is a bit of a misnomer because not many people share a lot of the same opinions and beliefs, but, that's why we have discussions like this.

In my opinion, (not that anyone wants it) laws are guidelines to keep us safe and keep idiots from ruining it for the rest of us. Some times you can wander (just barely) outside (or in) those guidelines and still be safe. Drive an extra 5km over the speed limit. Run across the middle of the street when there's no traffic. etc, etc... Now I'm in no way endorsing hunting after or before the legal times, but in a "hypothetical" situation if I'm at full draw on a monster Elk who is 20 yards away and he finally turns broadside with a perfect shot, but just at that moment the legal time has expired... I'm not going to let down and let him go because 60 seconds passed by and it would now be illegal to shoot. (making all the proper assumptions, like it was a safe shot in all directions or I wouldn't be there)

Having said that, if it was dark and hard to see and I was not sure of my target (or beyond), I wouldn't be at full draw to begin with. I'd sit quietly and watch him meander on all the while hoping and praying I'd see him again before any of you bad boys saw him. But that's just me...

Safety first, don't ruin it for the next guy, and when in doubt walk away.

(P.S. Quite a topic for my first post)

[Walleyes]

Well some are finally starting to get the whole point of the topic..

As far as admitting something on the Internet,,, no body admitted to doing anything... It was a fictional story,, sorry to those that can't make the separation from reality to fiction.. Maybe some of yous should put down the keyboard and actually get out more... There is life away from you're computer...

[Rackmastr]

LOL....I always laugh when someone sitting in front of a computer tells someone else that they should get out more........

I know your point of your thread Walleyes...it was the fact that you said 'Common sense said shoot the moose after dark'. I know it was fictional, but it was the way you supported the actions that got a few of use out of joint, and the approach taken.....

Either way, put your keyboard down and get out more.....theres lifew away from your computer......lol

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

I personally would pass up the shot, not worth it in my books-all the risks factored in. I have passed up a few Big whitetails and a few elk b/c of the legal light situation (trust me the one buck was over 200, and was about 10minutes before legal light-Later seen the F & W officer in his truck waiting for shots before legal later that morning, as there were complaints in the area, and I heard those shots myself, looked at my watch and thought it was way too early). I'll try again the next time out and maybe set up somewhere different where Iwill have a better opportunity within legal light time. Thats just me and my hunting companions are the same.

[BrownBear416]

Walleyes,Walleyes,Walleyes.

[Walleyes]

But hey you got to admit brown I got the blood press up on a few pretty good...

And maybe made a few think,,, about where do we start and stop crossing the line...

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by BrownBear416

Walleyes,Walleyes,Walleyes.

[Dunezilla]

"And you all go on the regular 7 day hunt… You spend the usual couple grand to get there.. You hunt for 5 day’s with no luck on the 6th night you call till dark,, with no luck till last legal shooting time (in the books) after no success you pack er in .. You make 200 yards back to camp and low and behold,, standing in middle of the line 200yrds ahead in decent site is a” bull” you can see plain as day through you’re $3000.00 Zeiss it is a bull moose.. With all the time and money you have spent to get here what do you do ????
Do use common sense and feed you’re family.. Do you run with the ethics and say no,, or do you say no the law is the law…."

$2000.oo hunting trip.....,$3000.00 scope, and the hunter needs to kill a moose when it is not legall to do so for meat to feed his family? I doubt the hunter would need this illegall moose that bad for food. Plus would it be worth the risk if he was to get cought.

A man up in the Fort McMurry area was fined $1,150.00 for killing a grouse without a licence..just one grouse.....what would the fine be for killing a moose after the legall day light has gone? Oh then there are lawyers fees as well.

Anyhow I would pass the moose up....not worth the risk.

[bearbait]

i go with common sence.....dont shoot....if you hunted 7 days with 4 guys and dident get a shot then you did not scout the area enough....i fill my moose tag with a bow in bow season every year....its a 2 week season which i hunt 5 days total...better scouting leads to better chances...
jmo....