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09-03-2016, 02:50 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
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When the ABA lobbied to ban some non-traditional weapons I was absolutely livid that a hunting org would "spearhead" something like that. I'm still not happy with them doing that but I hate to say it but they were right. Since this spear fiasco emerged my opinion about the issue has changed and I am in 100% agreement with the statement made by the AFGA.
Sometimes you have to pick your battles and this was one battle that the AFGA could not win so what would fighting it accomplish? IMO it would do the AFGA more harm than good particularly from a credibility standpoint in the future.
As far as supporting a ban on spears leading to the banning of other things, I don't buy it. Supporting a ban on spears is one thing and supporting a ban on baiting for bear, for example, is quite another......apples and oranges. I'm positive that the AFGA would fight extremely hard if banning the baiting for bear issue ever arose.
I am not a member of the AFGA, I just see and understand the logic behind choosing to not fight this battle. It was a wise decision IMO.
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09-03-2016, 03:43 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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Value
Do I feel there is value in AFGA, yes. We have a voice at this point. Who would defend hunting without them, hunters as individuals? That is not a force to be reckoned with as we're notoriously bad representatives of our passion.
If you really want a seat at the Table with SRD, we'd be smarter buying a logging or oilsands company.
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09-03-2016, 03:49 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl
Do I feel there is value in AFGA, yes. We have a voice at this point. Who would defend hunting without them, hunters as individuals? That is not a force to be reckoned with as we're notoriously bad representatives of our passion.
If you really want a seat at the Table with SRD, we'd be smarter buying a logging or oilsands company.
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So you consider the president's actions as defending hunting? We as hunters would be better off without him as our voice.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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09-03-2016, 03:55 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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Yes
Yes i do.
Maybe hunters would be served better by another, but not because of this incident alone.
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09-03-2016, 08:13 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 478
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spear
It is not the spear that is the problem - it was the behavior of the person that was the problem. Had he used a rifle rather than a spear, would the AFGA now be supporting the banning of all rifles for hunting? Punishment is being meted out for the wrong reason(s) and as such, the banning of a spear is totally wrongheaded. The only thing we are left with is "what is next" and for what wrongheaded reason will it come to be. Sad that this is the best that the AFGA can come up with.
Last edited by catnthehat; 09-03-2016 at 08:29 PM.
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09-03-2016, 08:31 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,773
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How many animals suffer or die at the hands of spear hunters in Alberta each year?
How many animals suffer or die at the hands of rifle hunters in Alberta each year?
And the Anti Hunters only care about the former?
Wayne Lowry needs to give his head a shake.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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09-03-2016, 08:50 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
How many animals suffer or die at the hands of spear hunters in Alberta each year?
How many animals suffer or die at the hands of rifle hunters in Alberta each year?
And the Anti Hunters only care about the former?
Wayne Lowry needs to give his head a shake.
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Yup. While the celebration to many could be seen a tasteless and excessive. Many celebrate like that and have no issues. When "opinion" dictates legislation and regulation....we are all "one bad video" away from being the next SJW target.
Unreal the response the AFGA has made. What's the next thing they are going to support a ban on?
LC
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09-03-2016, 08:53 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,134
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When the fundamentals of hunting start getting broken down like we are now seeing it shows the people calling the shots are not good at their jobs nor do they understand the basic concepts of hunting an animal. What is next ? Someone posts a video of another making a shot with a rifle and accidentally blowis the animals nose off because of wind and now we can't hunt if it's windy ?
This is sad....real sad.
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09-03-2016, 09:04 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary AB
Posts: 2,701
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AFGA has done a dis-service to Alberta hunters.
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09-03-2016, 09:09 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Communist Capital of Alberta
Posts: 3,707
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Disgusting. Simply disgusting.
I'll bet we see the presidents of the AGFA and the ABA holding hands while singing Kumbaya at the next PETA meeting.
Next on the banning list; bear baiting.
Then archery.
Thank you gentlemen.
What the heck ever happened to "no comment"??
Pretty sad that the first time either president gets asked by the provincial media for their opinions, they throw other hunters under the bus.
Good job boys. Thanks.
In solitarity, ( )
CBintheNorth
__________________
Social acceptance is NOT effective therapy.
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09-03-2016, 11:19 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Northern Alberta
Posts: 1,704
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What if
What do folks think would be the vote if all hunters were given a mandatory vote on this? And what if the result was that traveling back in time, weapons wise, increasing the difficulty and the margin of error(as rifles are clearly a more advanced way of dispatching quarry, was deemed thrill hunting by the public? What would this do for the future of hunting?
The public at large is the one single largest stakeholder in our wild places, this can be seen by the amount of Eastern slopes parks losing hunting ground yearly. Roosevelt had the foresight to change the image of hunters by showing we were not blood thirsty heathens, but instead stewards of the land with great respect for the animals that call these places home. ( mostly)
Things that make us appear blood thirsty are high fence hunts, shooting swimming animals, hacking animals with swords etc.
My guess is the intimacy ontained to feel the spear plunging into the animal while in your hands is a tough pill to swallow, and risking all hunting so a small number can fulfill this need for blood lust doesn't support the overall goal of most hunters in the Province, or Country.
All this is just my assumption based on those I have recently poled on this topic, and my own beliefs.like pro spear hunters, I too am passionate about losing this battle and fear its consequences and yes, it's full of hypocricy. But this will not be the loss of all hunting, it will hopefully show our support of wild places and those that call it home.
Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age...and don't want to fall on my own spear like Tim Wells did!
Last edited by Full Curl Earl; 09-03-2016 at 11:21 PM.
Reason: Add
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09-04-2016, 12:57 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Copperhead Road, Morinville
Posts: 19,290
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I think that what it comes down to for a lot of non-hunters is that many people are okay with hunting for food but not okay with hunting for fun. Even if that fella stated that he was going to eat the bear, was that the primary reason for choosing to hunt with a spear? I think not, and people are undoubtedly upset at what they perceive as thrill killing. I don't think that it is in our best interests to have the general public perceiving us as a bunch of thrill killers and it is better to distance ourselves from it. That's pretty much why I have no issue with the AFGA's position.
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09-04-2016, 02:37 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Communist Capital of Alberta
Posts: 3,707
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Here's the problem gents, no one is forcing you to condemn or approve of spear hunting or the Bowmars.
You're doing that on your own. Publicly. By choice.
Remember the old saying- "if you don't have anything nice to say..."? Well in this case you don't even have to say anything nice. Just don't say anything. That would hurt no one.
But instead....the bashing will continue for at least 3 more pages...
__________________
Social acceptance is NOT effective therapy.
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09-04-2016, 07:43 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: airdrie
Posts: 5,211
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is archery archaic? old fashion way behind the rifle .guess they better ban archery.
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LIFE IS TOUGH.....TOUGHER IF YOU'RE STUPID.-------------------“Women have the right to work wherever they want, as long as they have the dinner ready when you get home”
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09-04-2016, 07:49 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HunterDave
I think that what it comes down to for a lot of non-hunters is that many people are okay with hunting for food but not okay with hunting for fun. Even if that fella stated that he was going to eat the bear, was that the primary reason for choosing to hunt with a spear? I think not, and people are undoubtedly upset at what they perceive as thrill killing. I don't think that it is in our best interests to have the general public perceiving us as a bunch of thrill killers and it is better to distance ourselves from it. That's pretty much why I have no issue with the AFGA's position.
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I think you are completely out of touch with reality. If there was no feeling in hunting then I would suggest no one would do it. Why do you do it? Purely as a utilitarian way to obtain food? Yea right.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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09-04-2016, 07:50 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,773
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth
Here's the problem gents, no one is forcing you to condemn or approve of spear hunting or the Bowmars.
You're doing that on your own. Publicly. By choice.
Remember the old saying- "if you don't have anything nice to say..."? Well in this case you don't even have to say anything nice. Just don't say anything. That would hurt no one.
But instead....the bashing will continue for at least 3 more pages...
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Saying nothing is not the answer.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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09-04-2016, 07:57 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth
Here's the problem gents, no one is forcing you to condemn or approve of spear hunting or the Bowmars.
You're doing that on your own. Publicly. By choice.
Remember the old saying- "if you don't have anything nice to say..."? Well in this case you don't even have to say anything nice. Just don't say anything. That would hurt no one.
But instead....the bashing will continue for at least 3 more pages...
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The AFGA could use a little bashing for this one. Hunters in AB need a group that will stand behind them at all times, not just when it is politically expedient.
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09-04-2016, 08:10 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: CANADA
Posts: 6,268
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I guess I am next too get my weapon banned
David
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Scientific and Analytical Angler/Hunter
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09-04-2016, 08:21 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speckle55
I guess I am next too get my weapon banned
David
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Oh Lord that has been used as a murder weapon in the past!!
Cat
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Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
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09-04-2016, 09:07 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Saying nothing is not the answer.
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I agree entirely, this is a time when we need a solid consistent intelligent convincing voice.
The unfortunate problem is this situation is as big and all encompassing as it gets and not at all simple to deal with and as much as I like Wayne this was not the way to handle it.
Is banning spears bad? Maybe not, but the manner in which it looks like it is going to get done certainly is.
I don't think distancing ourselves from AFGA is the answer here based on the stance taken. AFGA is still the largest organized group of us out there (who and how could they be replaced), but it does need to wake up to the new realities of the world and a lot of the old ways need to change.
I would suggest instead of dropping AFGA, it would be better to make sure you are a member in good standing and start expressing your views to those involved. I would also suggest that we start looking for someone within or hired to be more politically savvy (for lack of a better term). Wayne's biggest issue is he missed the opurtunity to spin this (not politically savvy)
We also better start looking into some mirrors because as much as everyone wants to push back we are hitting a point where our place in society is going to be dictated more and more by people not associated with it. The responses on here show we are hot headed and defiant. We all have to be ambassadors and good ones. If we have defendable positions we will be able to manage a situation like this video without having to defend the existence of what we do and how we do it.
IMHO
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09-04-2016, 09:47 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bazeau County East side
Posts: 4,166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl
What do folks think would be the vote if all hunters were given a mandatory vote on this? And what if the result was that traveling back in time, weapons wise, increasing the difficulty and the margin of error(as rifles are clearly a more advanced way of dispatching quarry, was deemed thrill hunting by the public? What would this do for the future of hunting?
The public at large is the one single largest stakeholder in our wild places, this can be seen by the amount of Eastern slopes parks losing hunting ground yearly. Roosevelt had the foresight to change the image of hunters by showing we were not blood thirsty heathens, but instead stewards of the land with great respect for the animals that call these places home. ( mostly)
Things that make us appear blood thirsty are high fence hunts, shooting swimming animals, hacking animals with swords etc.
My guess is the intimacy ontained to feel the spear plunging into the animal while in your hands is a tough pill to swallow, and risking all hunting so a small number can fulfill this need for blood lust doesn't support the overall goal of most hunters in the Province, or Country.
All this is just my assumption based on those I have recently poled on this topic, and my own beliefs.like pro spear hunters, I too am passionate about losing this battle and fear its consequences and yes, it's full of hypocricy. But this will not be the loss of all hunting, it will hopefully show our support of wild places and those that call it home.
Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age...and don't want to fall on my own spear like Tim Wells did!
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What you describe is killing, not hunting which would dramatically effect your poll results.
I started spear hunting for the challenge. I can go shoot a deer with a rifle in less than an hour most days. Which I will do near the end of the season to fill the freezer, but to myself it almost feels like a canned hunt. There is no hunt in it for me. I like hunting and the more on equal ground I am to the prey the better. It has absolutely nothing to do with blood lust. It is about the challenge and the hunt period.
I didn't get the vibe that Bowmar was looking for blood lust, but I suppose some people did. Until hunters can find away to combat the blood lust issue there will be more knee jerk reaction bannings based on emotion.
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09-04-2016, 10:05 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Communist Capital of Alberta
Posts: 3,707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newview01
The AFGA could use a little bashing for this one. Hunters in AB need a group that will stand behind them at all times, not just when it is politically expedient.
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Whoa, whoa, whoa. You need to read post 70, as I see you have misunderstood me.
The AFGA definitely needs a bashing. From every hunter, regardless of weapon preference.
__________________
Social acceptance is NOT effective therapy.
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09-04-2016, 11:33 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,207
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When the ABA president first leaked to me his intention to propose banning spears and atlatls because "it is too difficult for me" and "people might complain", I called and discussed the concern with executives from each Alberta big game hunting stakeholder group.
EVERY one understood that this is NOT just about spears/atlatls, but about drawing a line of where and when to draw a line in defence of hunting. The consensus was that we needed to define and regulate a legal spear/atlatl, and that while few may be using these tools, the right thing to do would be to SUPPORT this traditional method of hunting.
One underlying factor in consideration by all was whether or not there was sufficient support within the hunting community to bother with expending the energy required to keep spears/atlatls legal. Why bother, who cares?
The general and large negative reaction to the AFGA's new position/ recent public comments demonstrates that we DO CARE and will BOTHER to stand up for our community. I believe that Wayne was mistaken to take the stance that this is not the line where the AFGA will support those in a legal but minority activity.
It is GREAT to hear so many express kind concern that "WE" need to stand up for those who are legally pursuing our passion. The AFGA needs to hear that they are wrong in calculating this issue to be unworthy of their support.
Please note the sig line I have used for the last couple of years.
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
This is current Alberta F&W POLICY!
Protecting the right for the use of legal tools should have been a top priority for both F&W and the AFGA! If F&W and the AFGA will not stand up for us on this issue, there is little reason to believe they will support us when the next round of social media outrage is unleashed.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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09-04-2016, 11:54 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,151
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Ok, it is what it is, and dear leader has spoken. Like it or not (and I don't) the battle is lost, dying on this hill won't change it. What now?
Clearly there are a lot of passionate hunters out there, how do we channel the energy this issue brought forth into a positive change?
__________________
“Nothing is more persistent than a liberal with a dumb idea” - Ebrand
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09-04-2016, 12:14 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3blade
Ok, it is what it is, and dear leader has spoken. Like it or not (and I don't) the battle is lost, dying on this hill won't change it. What now?
Clearly there are a lot of passionate hunters out there, how do we channel the energy this issue brought forth into a positive change?
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I think we have to become more private and stay out of the public eye with some aspects .. Like the president of AFGA stated there's 4.3 mil in Alberta that have a say in our wildlife and we're NOT going to strong arm them .. Hunting is not a right it's a privilege .. Keep off u-tube and social media with things that can offend , to be precise ... as I said before common sense as to prevail .. Leave well enough alone ..
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09-04-2016, 12:17 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toromir
Next to be banned - Bows.
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Already illegal in Europe, considered "inhumane".
Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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09-04-2016, 12:23 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams
Already illegal in Europe, considered "inhumane".
Grizz
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Just my thoughts on this being more private and keeping things to yourself a bit .. we have a thread on here today -- bad shot placement- with a bow .. I really don't understand the reasoning and what good can come out of this on a public forum ..again my thoughts only , trying to help
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09-04-2016, 12:26 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
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Spot on
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
How many animals suffer or die at the hands of spear hunters in Alberta each year?
How many animals suffer or die at the hands of rifle hunters in Alberta each year?
And the Anti Hunters only care about the former?
Wayne Lowry needs to give his head a shake.
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Well said.
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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09-04-2016, 12:31 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3blade
Ok, it is what it is, and dear leader has spoken. Like it or not (and I don't) the battle is lost, dying on this hill won't change it. What now?
Clearly there are a lot of passionate hunters out there, how do we channel the energy this issue brought forth into a positive change?
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I guess we keep a smile on our face, soon it will be another form of hunting or something else to make it more difficult to hunt, shoot, fish etc
Keep going the way we are and we will all be criminals by the end of it...gather at Walmart, kfc,so yes etc to stock our prey...sad
I'm heading out to my tree stand now if that is still legal?
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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09-04-2016, 12:32 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio56
Just my thoughts on this being more private and keeping things to yourself a bit .. we have a thread on here today -- bad shot placement- with a bow .. I really don't understand the reasoning and what good can come out of this on a public forum ..again my thoughts only , trying to help
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Advice on how to recover an animal, which is the ultimate goal. We have to be very careful about over sterilizing what we do as well, because that can lead to the exact problem we have in the bowmar case
__________________
“Nothing is more persistent than a liberal with a dumb idea” - Ebrand
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