Way too Few tags !!!!

[Pudelpointer]

I agree Bobolong.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Srd's data has been in question long before these numbers. Do you remember the archery harvest data they put together to force archery antlered mule deer on draw?

Good luck getting anyone at srd/ afga to care. Your approach on asking them to confirm numbers will only result in delays in getting future numbers.

These people are in positions which they consider are powerful. You and I are on the Internet. I think you should try to get yourself elected to the afga, and raise holy hell. I will vote for you. I think...

You have supplied the members on here with a lot of information as well. I thank you for the time and the work you did providing us with this information as well.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Revolutionary Conclusion.... No.
Revolutionary exposure of SRD data to support the conclusion? Have you seen proof before?

See below.





There is still more data required to completely evaluate the concerns I'm putting forward. The research will continue, concerns and questions will be put to AFGA, F&W and the Minister.








I'm probably wasting time responding to you, but I'll try anyways.

I've already responded to your ridiculous comments about my "desire to destroy our herds".

Try googling the data I'm using.

Try to understand what I am alluding to with this information. Maybe try standing on a chair when reading this.



I've repeated express here and in the last "too many tags" thread that first and foremost, WE MUST HAVE FUNDING FOR ACCURATE POPULATION ESTIMATES! ( BB. )

Proper management can only happen with good data regarding population status.

This is not about demanding More Tags. I'm showing that this data gives the impression that F&W is not following policy in calculating licence numbers and allocations to the various user groups, eg. High resident harvest goals mean high outfitter allocations, yet residents don't get their share. Another concern, Is there an intent to achieve new regulations and restrictions, eg. MD Archery to draw by manipulating licence numbers?

I understand you 100%. Does not meen I agree with you. Mismanagement is an understatement. As for a few zones getting numbers that make seanse to keep a healthy herd and keep mature bucks to let trophy hunters a few zones that are not shot to crap. We once had just as good of hunting as our next door province. But know it is more of a discrase. So yet again what is your deal? Why are you complaining ? How often or have you even been in these zones? As got archery and all other stuff regarding mule deer I have been more involved trying to make things better a lot longer than you have been googling info for AO members. So do not try and portray to know everything and me nothing.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

I understand you 100%. Does not meen I agree with you. Mismanagement is an understatement. As for a few zones getting numbers that make seanse to keep a healthy herd and keep mature bucks to let trophy hunters a few zones that are not shot to crap. We once had just as good of hunting as our next door province. But know it is more of a discrase. So yet again what is your deal? Why are you complaining ? How often or have you even been in these zones? As got archery and all other stuff regarding mule deer I have been more involved trying to make things better a lot longer than you have been googling info for AO members. So do not try and portray to know everything and me nothing.

My deal is that I believe all information regarding big game population estimates, user group allocations and policy must be available to the public. At the moment this information is not available, even ABA and AFGA do not have this information. My goal is make all Big Game research and hunting licence information available to everyone. Only when we all know where we are today can we have an intelligent discussion as to where to go and how to get there.



You complain about deer herds being half of what they once were and that there are too many tags being issued. Do you have any data to back up your claims? I am trying to get the information so that you can back up your opinion.


I have no desire nor have I made any attempt to portray you in any way, you are creating your own image.






I have absolutely no issue with people that disagree with me. I accept and respect differing opinions, so let's see where you stand opposed to my position.


Do you agree with me that the Provincial Government needs to adequately fund F&W so that yearly Big Game Population estimates are accurate?


Do you agree with me that the public should have access to Big Game information used by F&W such as Population estimates, Harvest goals, Harvest/success rate estimates and the number of Licences issued ( for Residents, NR/NRA, outfitters, and landowners) ?


Do you agree with me that Policy used by F&W to determine Hunting Licence allocations for all user groups should be available to the public?


Do you agree with me that F&W should follow policy and be held accountable when they don't?

[slough shark]

[QUOTE=jungleboy;2174333]I agree with you 100% ....but have you ever noticed how when hunters do get access to these lands that many of them fight tooth and nail to keep other hunters from getting privileges on that same land? I see it all the time , "I have permission there so don't even think about going there with out me" I hunted with a guy one year that took great pains to point out all the land that was "his" to hunt and no one else but "his" .This guy had so much land supposedly wrapped up throughout the province that he had no hope of ever properly hunting it but he wanted to make sure no one else could either.
Sorry for the derail but sometimes hunters just do it to themselves. (end quote)

I suspect that he is full of poop when he says he has exclusive permission on a ton of land from many landowners. I have said stuff similar before to people that I had out with me (not exclusive permission) because I don't want people going out and hunting the land that I have worked on getting permission when they haven't even met the landowner and would just go out and say that they know me and have permission by association (have had this happen before), If you want permission go get it yourself!

On WB's assertions I agree we need to have a far better survey system and a tag system that takes into account the weather we have. I remember a few years ago (2010 I believe) that srd did a count in february in my main hunting zone out east. The count put out a pretty decent number of deer, of course as we all know the snow and cold killed off large numbers after the count. That didn't affect the number of tags they put out and they likely could have killed off every deer left in the zone as the tag # was fixed before winter was over. I know it is nice to wish such things but what can we do.

[Deer Hunter]

You can count every deer every year in every WMU, biologize, staticize, analyze all you like, harvest vs allocation blah blah but when a winter kills half of the deer or antelope herd in one year, generally every five years or so, all you are doing is providing people in the govt with subsidized jobs. And creating work distractions for people on this board.

This "management" of northern range critters can never be the same as true trophy areas of NM, AZ etc.

But blaming the weather is as bad as blaming the number of people that pour into this province every year... Better get used to it, it is beyond your control.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

My deal is that I believe all information regarding big game population estimates, user group allocations and policy must be available to the public. At the moment this information is not available, even ABA and AFGA do not have this information. My goal is make all Big Game research and hunting licence information available to everyone. Only when we all know where we are today can we have an intelligent discussion as to where to go and how to get there.



You complain about deer herds being half of what they once were and that there are too many tags being issued. Do you have any data to back up your claims? I am trying to get the information so that you can back up your opinion.


I have no desire nor have I made any attempt to portray you in any way, you are creating your own image.






I have absolutely no issue with people that disagree with me. I accept and respect differing opinions, so let's see where you stand opposed to my position.


Do you agree with me that the Provincial Government needs to adequately fund F&W so that yearly Big Game Population estimates are accurate?


Do you agree with me that the public should have access to Big Game information used by F&W such as Population estimates, Harvest goals, Harvest/success rate estimates and the number of Licences issued ( for Residents, NR/NRA, outfitters, and landowners) ?


Do you agree with me that Policy used by F&W to determine Hunting Licence allocations for all user groups should be available to the public?


Do you agree with me that F&W should follow policy and be held accountable when they don't?

No I don't think it should all be public info as wasting money and time providing a bunch of data for you. As for info you must **** off the bios with all your whining about numbers. I call and get all the info I require for what I need. As for tags CWD and Margo have made it in to a tag overload for everybody. After the 1995 winter kill herds were coming back and the CWD was found. Then the tags were unloaded ever since. Which then leads to the archery going to a draw. This all has nothing to do about your numbers WB. This is people in SRD not doing there job and making thigs a personal mission. So back to my question as you have not answered it. When and how often have you ever hunted or just been in 138? I bet you never have. So why are you complaining about lack of tags in a place you have not been too. As for numbers I have stated there has not been any counts in those zones in many years so they issue less tags to make sure they don't slaughter the herd that is not there. So this comes down to lack of money. As for the way they figure tag numbers is a whole other problem but a google god such as your self you know all about it. Oh that is right you don't as you think they still do it like they use to.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

You can count every deer every year in every WMU, biologize, staticize, analyze all you like, harvest vs allocation blah blah but when a winter kills half of the deer or antelope herd in one year, generally every five years or so, all you are doing is providing people in the govt with subsidized jobs. And creating work distractions for people on this board.

This "management" of northern range critters can never be the same as true trophy areas of NM, AZ etc.

But blaming the weather is as bad as blaming the number of people that pour into this province every year... Better get used to it, it is beyond your control.

So our mule deer herds are shot to crap and we have no age structure do to a bad winter every five? Sorry but that is a hard one to swallow as across the border during the same time and same crappy weather Saskatewan broke a world record for a mule deer and had a few other monster appear to get shot. Furthermore proving your theory incorrect. Management can happen here and achevie Somalian to the states you used in your eg just need to be way more on the ball year to year with everything including massive drop in tag numbers after bad winters and just dropping them to achieve a better herd.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

So our mule deer herds are shot to crap and we have no age structure do to a bad winter every five? Sorry but that is a hard one to swallow as across the border during the same time and same crappy weather Saskatewan broke a world record for a mule deer and had a few other monster appear to get shot. Furthermore proving your theory incorrect. Management can happen here and achevie Somalian to the states you used in your eg just need to be way more on the ball year to year with everything including massive drop in tag numbers after bad winters and just dropping them to achieve a better herd.

Pull your head out of the sand. Just because someone shoots a big animal in a province doesn't mean that everything is OK and nothing needs to be done. A lady shot a top 10 record antelope in AB this year and everything is far from fine here.

Part of the mgmt issue (the one you cant control) is winter kill. The other one unique to Alberta is population growth. When we have 5-6MM people in this province in 10 years do you think the hunting will be better/easier/more frequent? The increase in draw wait times are seeing the issue now, but when sheep and WT are forced to a draw as well, then you may finally see the issue. Too late!

Other states and provinces may have antelope and mule deer. But they don't have massive increases in resident hunting demand. Managing these resident hunters by cutting back on non residents and outfitter allocations are all we can do here, and hope for mother nature to spare us.







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Alberta

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Pull your head out of the sand. Just because someone shoots a big animal in a province doesn't mean that everything is OK and nothing needs to be done. A lady shot a top 10 record antelope in AB this year and everything is far from fine here.

Part of the mgmt issue (the one you cant control) is winter kill. The other one unique to Alberta is population growth. When we have 5-6MM people in this province in 10 years do you think the hunting will be better/easier/more frequent? The increase in draw wait times are seeing the issue now, but when sheep and WT are forced to a draw as well, then you may finally see the issue. Too late!

Other states and provinces may have antelope and mule deer. But they don't have massive increases in resident hunting demand. Managing these resident hunters by cutting back on non residents and outfitter allocations are all we can do here, and hope for mother nature to spare us.







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Alberta

Well my god you have figured it out. That is why archery needed to on a draw. As for rifle tags they supossably stayed constant. That is false as you will see tags have increased over the last many years after the winter kill of 1995 and only adjusted slightly after the die off from the last few nasty winters. As for my head in the sand it is so far from the sand. Sask has more mule deer and big one than here cause of management. Mule deer need to be protected to get big and that is by proper management. So why does Alberta not have deer like there? You say it is winter kills? That is funny. As for your antelope it is the same thing. You let them grow up giving no tags out and you are going to have a few tanks running around. Not like in the past after handing out 1500 tags and seeing the amount on big ones shot compared to this year. There still being a shortage of antelope this year and still they gave out to many tags. Another show how Alberta mismanages there wildlife.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Well my god you have figured it out. That is why archery needed to on a draw. As for rifle tags they supossably stayed constant. That is false as you will see tags have increased over the last many years after the winter kill of 1995 and only adjusted slightly after the die off from the last few nasty winters. As for my head in the sand it is so far from the sand. Sask has more mule deer and big one than here cause of management. Mule deer need to be protected to get big and that is by proper management. So why does Alberta not have deer like there? You say it is winter kills? That is funny. As for your antelope it is the same thing. You let them grow up giving no tags out and you are going to have a few tanks running around. Not like in the past after handing out 1500 tags and seeing the amount on big ones shot compared to this year. There still being a shortage of antelope this year and still they gave out to many tags. Another show how Alberta mismanages there wildlife.

How many non-residents have shot mule deer in Saskatchewan? You mention it is about management, how many antelope were shot in Saskatchewan the past 2 years, how many by non-residents....not giving out tags is a part of management is it not?

You are arguing the same points

LC

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

Well my god you have figured it out.
That is why archery needed to on a draw.

Tell me why you think archery needed to go to a draw?

As for rifle tags they supossably stayed constant.
What are you talking about?

That is false as you will see tags have increased over the last many years after the winter kill of 1995. As for my head in the sand it is so far from the sand. Sask has more mule deer and big one than here cause of management.

Sask has the same issues as AB but they don't have nearly the numbers of hunters chasing them, no outfitters either

Mule deer need to be protected to get big and that is by proper management. So why does Alberta not have deer like there?

Alberta has deer like Sask but it has too many people hunting them now, outfitters, non residents, and lots more residents.

You say it is winter kills? That is funny. As for your antelope it is the same thing. You let them grow up giving no tags out and you are going to have a few tanks running around.

You always have a few big ones around, the problem here is waiting 10-15 yrs to hunt them because of winter kill issues and a long line up of people at draw time.

Not like in the past after handing out 1500 tags and seeing the amount on big ones shot compared to this year. There still being a shortage of antelope this year and still they gave out to many tags. Another show how Alberta mismanages there wildlife.

pretend to manage wildlife all you want, Alberta needs to do a better job at managing the hunters.

....

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

How many non-residents have shot mule deer in Saskatchewan? You mention it is about management, how many antelope were shot in Saskatchewan the past 2 years, how many by non-residents....not giving out tags is a part of management is it not?

You are arguing the same points

LC

No I sure am not. NR harvest have nothing to do with it if they were calculated in to equation. Land owner tags are the same thing but I think they need to disappear all together. I never said anything in regards to not enough tags. In Alberta there are way to many handed out. Period.

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

....

To many hunters = to many tags. Get it. That is the problem and you can put your spin on it any way you want. As for archery hunting you answered yourself in your last comment. Now they just need to finish and put the rest of the zones on draw. So if everybody was in the same pool of tags and they gave out way less it would be way better for all. That also mean longer wait times. That is the price we all have to make so we can watch everything get better.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by waterfowler1969

No I sure am not. NR harvest have nothing to do with it if they were calculated in to equation. Land owner tags are the same thing but I think they need to disappear all together. I never said anything in regards to not enough tags. In Alberta there are way to many handed out. Period.

You use Saskatchewan as a comparison....NO non-resident mule deer tags are handed out there, and NO antelope season has been open the past two years for anyone....

The same should be applied in Alberta ....no?

LC

[waterfowler1969]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

You use Saskatchewan as a comparison....NO non-resident mule deer tags are handed out there, and NO antelope season has been open the past two years for anyone....

The same should be applied in Alberta ....no?

LC

Agreed. Boils down to tag numbers.