Arming Teachers?

[omega50]

Oh to be a fly on the wall during the negotiation of the Union Agreement to bring something like this to fruition

[liar]

after the las vegas shooting i heard or read that some of the stage hands were armed legally but in the confusion and mayhem , they did not dare pull their weapons for fear of getting shot . you have to remember , when these things happen , they are a very dynamic situation and develop very quickly . arming teachers may mean collateral damage .

[Five]

Why can't the rifle(s) on hand be AR's? Are we going along with the fallacy that they are somehow evil? An M1 Carbine is a poor replacement for an AR.

I don't see why arming teachers is necessarily a bad idea. Aren't school police officers armed? Aren't police armed when they visit schools for presentations and special events? What is the difference?

Provided that they are heavily screened I don't see a problem. After all, police officers and teachers are usually recruited from similar candidate pools.

It is only in the last several decades that we have accepted the myth that we don't need armed men to protect what is valuable. In all of established history places of learning and worship were protected by armed men in one form or another.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Five

Why can't the rifle(s) on hand be AR's? Are we going along with the fallacy that they are somehow evil? An M1 Carbine is a poor replacement for an AR..

Nothing to do with looking evil.
The M1 looks different, sounds different than the others. Less chance for a teacher armed with one to be mistaken for “the shooter”.
M1 is small, light and can be easily handled by people of small stature. 30 cal up close is potent and makes big holes.

[Supergrit]

How about it’s in the class room in a safe teacher knows code that it. It’s hard in my opinion to say if arming teachers is good or bad but I bet the football coach and the others in the latest shooting wish they had somthing to fight back with. Maybe the teacher doesn’t kill the shooter but bogs him down and gives more time for the real police there definitely can be positives but I don’t know if it would work in real life situation.

[sns2]

If they were gonna give guns to teachers, I'd likely sign up for it, but only if there were incentive such as quadrupling long term disability and life insurance. I don't think I'd demand extra money, but would certainly take it if offered. I have been in real lockdowns (armed person seen wandering in vicinity of school) and rehearsed ones that took an hour to complete. Both times, I wished I had a gun.

How did we ever get to this point?

Our grandparents would not believe it.

Sad.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Supergrit

How about it’s in the class room in a safe teacher knows code that it. It’s hard in my opinion to say if arming teachers is good or bad but I bet the football coach and the others in the latest shooting wish they had somthing to fight back with. Maybe the teacher doesn’t kill the shooter but bogs him down and gives more time for the real police there definitely can be positives but I don’t know if it would work in real life situation.

The whole kit could be in a classroom...think of a big safety deposit box that springs open with a fingerprint touch. Several prints could be programmed to release. As the rifle is withdrawn, the red dot comes on. One, ten round mag in the gun, a couple more in the bulletproof vest. Gymnasiums are generally far from the high traffic areas so may not be a good location. A risk management team could make some good recommendations regarding location.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Newview01

If education was 100% privatized, I'll bet the schools that provided armed security for a 1-2% increase in tuition would be a lot more popular than those without.

No comment on this?

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Newview01

No comment on this?

Nope!

[RandyBoBandy]

Originally Posted by darren32

When I think back to my high school days ... we used to have shotguns in our vehicles and went bird hunting with some of the teachers after school. Guess those days are gone.

X2 Yep

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by darren32

When I think back to my high school days ... we used to have shotguns in our vehicles and went bird hunting with some of the teachers after school. Guess those days are gone.

At one time the worst thing that would happen in a school was theft and vandalism. Now we worry that schools are no longer safe and some have become killing fields. In the good old days I do not recall knowing anything about terrorism. Since those days we have all had our fill of terrorism. Some have learned how effective terrorism can be.

In the good old days if one was a spoiled brat, and the spoiled brat was full of anger and pizzed at the school or someone from school one could expect broken windows or air let out of tires or maybe even a break in and trashing classrooms or leaving the water running.

Now days those angry spoiled brats have adopted the tactics of terrorists and other angry spoiled brats are following their lead. Just my opinion but I see the situation getting worse before it gets better.

[2 Tollers]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Now days those angry spoiled brats have adopted the tactics of terrorists and other angry spoiled brats are following their lead. Just my opinion but I see the situation getting worse before it gets better.

Saw an interview with one of the parents of a child that was killed in Florida and he basically said the same thing. He wanted the discussion moved away from gun control and to one of what is going to be done to make schools safe. He referenced the action after 911 in airports and said why not the same for schools. metal detectors, specific entrances, hardening -- deal with the big picture gun control issue separately but fix schools now.

He had very harsh words on the mistakes that led to this and called out the deputy as a coward. He said people can learn from this and work together to prevent another incident or continuing to argue over guns and it will happen again.

[260 Rem]

There are things that can be done to harden schools as targets but there are serious costs involved. Take metal detectors as an example, not just the cost/upkeep of equipment, but personnel to man/monitor. A bit like the cost of a security guard. And so many small schools in rural areas. Tough decisions.
So thankful to live in Canada.

[Rockman]

There was an armed deputy, yeah, and sadly he seems to have taken the coward's way. Details aren't out so no judgment on it until we know well. But man oh man, if he did... that's just #)$#)*!$ up. Apparently he resigned and has two deputies guarding him due to death threats. Gonna be hard for him to live with himself.

[2 Tollers]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

There are things that can be done to harden schools as targets but there are serious costs involved. Take metal detectors as an example, not just the cost/upkeep of equipment, but personnel to man/monitor. A bit like the cost of a security guard. And so many small schools in rural areas. Tough decisions.

I think the point the dad was making was the full force of the US worked together in a focused manner after 911. Now with another school shooting there is not the focus or the funding being directed in an equal manner. He really took the FOX News moderator to task for focusing solely on gun controls which in his view will stalemate. I would agree with him that focused discussions and immediate changes to the "special grants that fostered the culture of hiding crime", the local police issue, data sharing between departments, mental health rejections, the cluster that is the new FBI and changing the news media's role should be achievable.

Having worked on some very large US high schools I have no idea how you would go about hardening them. Can the same principles used in Israel work in the US? The Israelis have been able to stop terrorism events in schools (no idea on cost).

[treeroot]

Originally Posted by sns2

If they were gonna give guns to teachers, I'd likely sign up for it, but only if there were incentive such as quadrupling long term disability and life insurance. I don't think I'd demand extra money, but would certainly take it if offered. I have been in real lockdowns (armed person seen wandering in vicinity of school) and rehearsed ones that took an hour to complete. Both times, I wished I had a gun.

How did we ever get to this point?

Our grandparents would not believe it.

Sad.

Interesting someone brought up insurance.

I had to call my insurance provided last year to see if I what would cause me to loose coverage and one of the things they told me I would loose my coverge for is being hurt or killed while volunteering in peace keeping or being paid for peace keeping. I can't recall all the details, but I am guessing if you agreed to carry a gun while you teacher, your insurance company would have something to say to you and it won't be good news.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by treeroot

Interesting someone brought up insurance.

I had to call my insurance provided last year to see if I what would cause me to loose coverage and one of the things they told me I would loose my coverge for is being hurt or killed while volunteering in peace keeping or being paid for peace keeping. I can't recall all the details, but I am guessing if you agreed to carry a gun while you teacher, your insurance company would have something to say to you and it won't be good news.

Never gonna happen here anyhow, but you are right, premiums would rise exponentially

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by sns2

Never gonna happen here anyhow, but you are right, premiums would rise exponentially
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

I agree, don’t think we will ever get to the discussion point the US finds itself in. However, I do expect we will be building deterents into new school construction projects. Probably even the “smoke” response we saw on T V tonite.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Mikeham

I’m a teacher. I don’t trust most people with firearms, especially in high stress situations or active shooter situations. This isn’t a video game or Airsoft.

Did you even read my post? I made it quite clear that I feel armed teachers aren’t playing paintball. I specifically stated they wouldn’t be out stalking assailants. I said they would hole-up and defend their classes if an assailant tried entering their class to shoot the students.

If the school you work at had a scenario like this, you are honestly telling me that sitting in your class with your yard stick would be preferable to being trained to use a pistol as a defensive tool?

If so, I feel that’s your right to pass, but I feel others should have the right to protect themselves and the children they are culpable for.

Do you trust the police in a high stress situation? Many of them are probably much less capable than you would dare to believe.

One last time, teachers will not make up the JTF2, they would sit in classes behind an upturned desk defending their position. I truly don’t see the fear of this. I think 99.9% of teachers that chose to arm themselves would be very relieved if they never had to draw down on someone. Not sure why you think anyone that would carry a firearm would just randomly walk down the halls ringing in the new year with a few dozen mag dumps.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I think the biggest skill is not necessarily safe gun handling but the ability to be shot at and still keep focused on the task at hand. My ex worked in the school board for 20 years or more and I was introduced to many teachers.

I visited with them at quite a few functions over the years and to be honest I don't know if I have ever seen a profession that has less knowledge/interest in guns, shooting, hunting and even fishing.

I feel it should only be voluntary. I don’t think it should be a requirement by any means. Back in the ol country (sask) a large majority of my male teachers were into hunting and shooting and many of their wives, also teachers, were too. Maybe it’s a different world here. I just feel that training the willing isn’t a mistake. It’s not the final solution by any means. It is one more tool in the toolbox however. As a tradesman I can tell you, no job is ever finished using just one tool.

[zabbo]

Originally Posted by bat119

When I think back to my school days I can only think of one maybe two teachers that wouldn't faint looking at a gun much less shoot one.

This!

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by The Spank

Ummm not!!! It has zero to do with our gun control laws. In my day and my fathers day and his fathers day we all carried our guns to school and participated in shooting clubs and hunted our way to and from school in season. There was no shootings in our schools then either!!! Don’t buy into the gun control thing! Thats what they want you to believe and its total bs

Try doing that now.. Things have changed in the past 50 years.. If we still allowed kids to freely carely guns to school, I can garuntee there would be school shootings.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by bobalong

School shootings do not seem to be a problem here, but I don't really believe it is the gun laws.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

It's because of the current laws, most people respect gun ownership, and realize that it's something they can lose. That (whether subconsciously or not), is more than enough to prevent a situation like in the states. I'm not saying every gun law up here is right or done right, but since we've had "control" of them from an early stage in Canada's history, we are in a better place.

My suggestion was more directed at the US.

sorry, that was my mis-read.

I (like others) have no idea what they can do in the states. Sure they can put a guard on duty, but then all it takes is for the guard to take a lunch break/whatever, and the psycho has their opportunity. Or my worst fear, lunch bell when hundreds of kids are running uncontrollably into the school yard. One guard is gonna do nothing in a situation like that. Hundreds of kids could be hurt before the guard even realizes what's going on.

It's a ****ty situation they're in, and I thank god we are this great country.

[blackpowderrlw]

Maybe, just maybe we should stop giving prescribed mind altering drugs to school children.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by blackpowderrlw

Maybe, just maybe we should stop giving prescribed mind altering drugs to school children.

^^this..

Our "healthcare" system is very good, but most times they don't try to get to the root of the problem. Our system doesn't care about preventing issues, only treating symptoms, or covering them up. The majority of issues, including alot of behavioral, can be controlled (and usually eliminated) with a proper diet. But that's another topic.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by jb_aol

^^this..

Our "healthcare" system is very good, but most times they don't try to get to the root of the problem. Our system doesn't care about preventing issues, only treating symptoms, or covering them up. The majority of issues, including alot of behavioral, can be controlled (and usually eliminated) with a proper diet. But that's another topic.

x1000

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Your taxes just doubled....that would never be supported.

Must be that new fuzzy math, taxes double????

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by blackpowderrlw

Maybe, just maybe we should stop giving prescribed mind altering drugs to school children.

I do not know what kind of drugs people are feeding their children,but I think it would be prudent to get to the root of the problem before drugs are needed. I think it comes down to teaching self control.

I think at a very early age children should be taught that thoughts are powerful things and that thoughts matter. I think they should learn that it is cool to think or entertain happy thoughts but anger thoughts no matter how small should not be fed and allowed to grow in any way.

I would say that when someone reaches the stage where he/she sees murder as doable that did not happen suddenly. I would say that it probably started by feeding or nursing some grudge or small anger and the keeper of the thought probably reasoned it was a private thing and no harm can come from it and no harm to visit with it on a regular bases. This terrible mass killing probably had its root cause in in some smallish anger thought that was not dismissed long ago.

Drugs or meds might cover some symptoms but that ugly thought is waiting to take control. The worst pre meditated crime can not happen without the mind giving consent.

[huntsfurfish]

Cost effective solution - Just post on and in schools that "all teachers are armed". No training needed, no guns needed. Might act as a deterrent but will not do much good if a shooting actually occurs.

edit: Of course you would want to keep it need to know.

[JB_AOL]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

I do not know what kind of drugs people are feeding their children,but I think it would be prudent to get to the root of the problem before drugs are needed.

IMO, this is where the flaw is in your comment. People assume the doctors are always interested in YOUR best interest/health. That isn't the case with the majority, they treat symptoms, not that cause of the symptoms. Hell I've experienced situations where the doctor prescribed a drug, and it had some severe side effects, so instead of trying to find another drug that worked, or better yet getting to the root of the initial issue. The doctor started prescribing drugs to control the symptoms of the first drug. Turns out, didn't need anything to begin with, was an allergy.

I think it comes down to teaching self control.

I think at a very early age children should be taught that thoughts are powerful things and that thoughts matter. I think they should learn that it is cool to think or entertain happy thoughts but anger thoughts no matter how small should not be fed and allowed to grow in any way.

I would say that when someone reaches the stage where he/she sees murder as doable that did not happen suddenly. I would say that it probably started by feeding or nursing some grudge or small anger and the keeper of the thought probably reasoned it was a private thing and no harm can come from it and no harm to visit with it on a regular bases. This terrible mass killing probably had its root cause in in some smallish anger thought that was not dismissed long ago.

Drugs or meds might cover some symptoms but that ugly thought is waiting to take control. The worst pre meditated crime can not happen without the mind giving consent.

While I agree with you in theory.. you are assuming that everyone is in "the right mind" under these situations (drugs/high stress/etc).

Almost every drug says "may cause hallucinations", well, that person may think they are making the right decision during a hallucination.