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  #1  
Old 11-22-2017, 05:27 PM
Jolantru Jolantru is offline
 
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Default Large rifle primers vs magnum primers ??

Need help from experience reloaders.

I use CCI large rifle in my 300 win mag.
Does the cold weather affect accuracy ?
Should I be using CCi magnum ?

For some reason I am 5” low today at 100
-10 here today
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  #2  
Old 11-22-2017, 05:48 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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It will affect your point of impact and velocity. Could also be your powder choice as well. Some powder is very temperature sensitive
I use magnum primers or br2's
Being a 300 win mag I would not reload with large rifle primers. I would definitely be using magnum primers.
I develop loads with with magnum primers. Then there is no guessing. For my 22-250 I use magnum or bench rest primers.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:49 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
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I can't imagine it would make that much difference. What powder are you using? There was an old rule of thumb out there that over 65gr + or - you should use magnum primers. I think all the published load data would use magnum primers in the 300WM

If you're using ball powder, it's supposed to be affected by cold weather. Not sure -10 makes that classification of cold.

Of course if your handloads were developed using standard primers you should reduce those loads and work up again using magnum primers, generally speaking.
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Old 11-22-2017, 05:57 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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5 inches @100? That does sound like a lot. Did something change on your scope? Do you have the magnification ring same position as when you sighted at 100?
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  #5  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:13 PM
Jolantru Jolantru is offline
 
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I’m using imr 7828

I tried my scope magnification at the setting I sighted it in at and different spots. Didn’t seem to matter.

Scope mounts are tight and i don’t remember dropping or bumping it. I can’t think what else it could be.
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  #6  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:30 PM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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Default mag primers

I use them in everything ..except cast....especially ball powders.Funny even in a little CZ 527 7.62x39 same loads with standard primers and mag ones.The mag groups were 1/2" and the standard 1" only variable changed were the primers and a miserly 25gr charge of H4198.
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:37 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolantru View Post
I’m using imr 7828

I tried my scope magnification at the setting I sighted it in at and different spots. Didn’t seem to matter.

Scope mounts are tight and i don’t remember dropping or bumping it. I can’t think what else it could be.
Imr 7828 is temperature sensitive.
I wouls start doing load development with magnum primers. Ditch the large rifle primers. For almost the same price you can get magnum primers. You will get much more consistency even in colder temperatures
Unless your scope is a first focal plane changing the magnification will absolutely change your point of impact
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  #8  
Old 11-22-2017, 06:40 PM
Ebrand Ebrand is online now
 
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Default Magnum primers.

I use them in everything.

22-250 243 270wsm 3006 338fed 7stw 338 win mag 300 win mag.

I have no temperature issues.

I have no pressure signs and my loads are are developed to max or more.
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  #9  
Old 11-22-2017, 07:09 PM
Buckhorn2 Buckhorn2 is offline
 
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Im not sure about your powder being temperature sensitive.as im just starting to reload but i can tell you that your point of impact should “NOT” change with magnification change. Unless you have a very old scope that is tracking when you adjust the zoom. or a broken scope. I have a new 100 dollar cabelas scope on my old hunting rifle and it does not change with zoom. Thats the whole point of being able to zoom your crosshair stays zero. If you have a bullet drop reticle that will change with zoom but the center point of aim will not. Try some factory ammo with same grain bullet. If your point impact comes up (obviously the point impact wont be the same as your handloads) then id look at your powder. If it shoots low then id look at your scope.


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  #10  
Old 11-22-2017, 07:21 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckhorn2 View Post
Im not sure about your powder being temperature sensitive.as im just starting to reload but i can tell you that your point of impact should “NOT” change with magnification change. Unless you have a very old scope that is tracking when you adjust the zoom. or a broken scope. I have a new 100 dollar cabelas scope on my old hunting rifle and it does not change with zoom. Thats the whole point of being able to zoom your crosshair stays zero. If you have a bullet drop reticle that will change with zoom but the center point of aim will not. Try some factory ammo with same grain bullet. If your point impact comes up (obviously the point impact wont be the same as your handloads) then id look at your powder. If it shoots low then id look at your scope.


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Let me clarify. Your point of impact will not change. But your point of aim will when changing maginfication
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  #11  
Old 11-22-2017, 07:43 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlightlyDistracting View Post
Imr 7828 is temperature sensitive.
I wouls start doing load development with magnum primers. Ditch the large rifle primers. For almost the same price you can get magnum primers. You will get much more consistency even in colder temperatures
Unless your scope is a first focal plane changing the magnification will absolutely change your point of impact
With a standard crosshairs or plex reticle, changing the magnification will not effect the point of impact unless the scope is defective.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:50 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
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I gave away a 1000 fed 215m primers. Groups were terrible with them in my 300wm, 7lrm and my nephews 338wm. Switched to Rem 91/2 large rifle and the groups tightened right up.
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  #13  
Old 11-23-2017, 07:14 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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There is not a powder made that is 100 % temperature stable. All powders have inherent temperature sensitivity .. some more than others.
For myself, I use mag primers in all the Dble based powders that I use and all loads that contain 60+ grains of any powder . Any powder that will be fired at less than 5 deg C gets a mag primer as well.. Actually, I think all large rifle field loads using medium to large capacity cases with high load densities benefit from the use of Mag primers. I really haven't noticed a major difference with any high density hunting load that was developed with mag primers being much different when LR primers were substituted.. except in extreme temperatures. Target loads are another matter.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:23 PM
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I would go with a scope alignment issue. I use magnum primers in all my centrefires, magnum or not.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:24 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlightlyDistracting View Post
Let me clarify. Your point of impact will not change. But your point of aim will when changing maginfication
Does changing magnification change your point of aim .. or possibly the point of impact ?
Seems to me that if I hold on the X at 4 power, I can still hold on the X at 16 power but the POI might be off a bit depending on the optics.
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Old 11-23-2017, 07:43 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Does changing magnification change your point of aim .. or possibly the point of impact ?
Seems to me that if I hold on the X at 4 power, I can still hold on the X at 16 power but the POI might be off a bit depending on the optics.
I stand corrected. I actually recently read an article about it. Been trying to find a link. It talks about how most scopes, unless they are high end your poa will change somewhat when changing magnification. Obviously it was an opinion. But he gave strong arguements why most will change. It was durastic and sometimes very minimal. But the authors opinion was that it will change in almost all except high end glass. I dont remember it mentioning different reticles. He basically had me convinced most scopes will change unless they are in the first focal plane. My bad....
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:31 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlightlyDistracting View Post
I stand corrected. I actually recently read an article about it. Been trying to find a link. It talks about how most scopes, unless they are high end your poa will change somewhat when changing magnification. Obviously it was an opinion. But he gave strong arguements why most will change. It was durastic and sometimes very minimal. But the authors opinion was that it will change in almost all except high end glass. I dont remember it mentioning different reticles. He basically had me convinced most scopes will change unless they are in the first focal plane. My bad....
Not a bad, as it can get quite confusing. Sometimes even the point of aim will appear different . For all intents and purposes a SFP 'scope will induce some POI shift. It can be checked on any 'scope if you have a Collimator. The only way to avoid it completely seems to be FFP.
I always zero my SFP's at the max magnification .. where you really need the enhanced accuracy at longer ranges.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:53 PM
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5" isn't a primer issue, it's only -10, not -35!(doubt the ammo was even -10)

You've got an optics or shooting form issue, like too many clothes on
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Old 11-23-2017, 10:54 PM
SlightlyDistracting SlightlyDistracting is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Not a bad, as it can get quite confusing. Sometimes even the point of aim will appear different . For all intents and purposes a SFP 'scope will induce some POI shift. It can be checked on any 'scope if you have a Collimator. The only way to avoid it completely seems to be FFP.
I always zero my SFP's at the max magnification .. where you really need the enhanced accuracy at longer ranges.
I always zero'd on half power so if there was a shift in my poi it would be cut in half at full power or lowest power. I dont have to worry anymore right or wrong. Both my scopes are now ffp. Lol
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:18 PM
Jolantru Jolantru is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
5" isn't a primer issue, it's only -10, not -35!(doubt the ammo was even -10)

You've got an optics or shooting form issue, like too many clothes on
Wasn’t a shooting issue. It was out of a sled. I’m afraid the scope might be out. But I have no idea how. I didn’t drop it or bump it. Everything is tight and I shot it a month prior and everything was good
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:50 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolantru View Post
Wasn’t a shooting issue. It was out of a sled. I’m afraid the scope might be out. But I have no idea how. I didn’t drop it or bump it. Everything is tight and I shot it a month prior and everything was good
How much weight on the lead sled?
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  #22  
Old 11-24-2017, 12:29 PM
Ariu Ariu is offline
 
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5" on 100yd is a lot of change for a 300WM.
I think you can rule out temperature by comparing results between rounds shot at ambient temperature and some other rounds kept warm in your pocket.
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:35 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariu View Post
5" on 100yd is a lot of change for a 300WM.
I think you can rule out temperature by comparing results between rounds shot at ambient temperature and some other rounds kept warm in your pocket.
That doesn't take into account the effects of temperature on the rifle, which can also be a factor.
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:49 PM
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One thing we didn't get was how big the group size was for the specific load to begin with.

If the group size was "good" (sub-moa as an example) before then you can rule out a few things:

1) Powder, 5" at 100M is much more drastic than the few FPS the speed will vary cause of temperature

2) Primer, if the groupings were good prior then the primer will have negligible difference at the temps you identified

3) Temperature, even in cold temperatures we are talking about a +/- half-moa. 5 moa because of temperature is unrealistic. If it was temperature you would expect the contracting of the barrel to offset the velocity loss. My current competition rifle shoots a +0.25 moa cold bore not -0.25moa.

The things I would look for personally, in the most likely order:

1) Shooter or shooting form
2) Bad round/load/batch
3) Dirty barrel
4) Loose mounts, scope rings, stock
5) Damaged scope

In terms of aiming, you should always sight in your rifle at max power. The old adage "Aim small, miss small" applies. If you sight in at 3x your crosshair likely covers a large portion of your target which increases your variability. If you zoom in to max you will be working with a more refined area and can minimize the impact of your own shooting variance. Within the scope the point of impact should be the same regardless of where you are in your zoom. Ranging is a different story and non-FFP scopes must be at the specified ranging zoom in order to range properly (without conversion calculations).
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  #25  
Old 11-25-2017, 11:27 AM
sikwhiskey sikwhiskey is offline
 
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Once I ran out of large rifle primers I stopped using them. Now I just buy magnum primers, start low and work up reloads. Main reason for doing this is less primers/load data to keep track of, less components in the box, less chance of using the wrong primer. CCI for progressive press, fed 215 for single.
I load thousands of rnds / year in 308, 30-06, 223, 44mag, 45acp, 45lc, 357. And maybe 100/year in 300wm, 300wby, 270win, 7-08, 6.5-284. Simplifing everything to mag primers made reloading in quantity a bit easier.
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  #26  
Old 11-28-2017, 05:26 PM
sevenmil sevenmil is offline
 
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It wouldn’t surprise me at all if part or all of the problem is the choice of primer. Magnum primers will more consistently ignite a larger powder charge, and in extreme cold weather this would become even more important.
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:09 PM
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6.5 shooter 6.5 shooter is offline
 
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RL-22 shot it in the fall bug holes (+20c), took the rifle (30-06) up north in the winter(-20c) nearly missed my moose.......Brought the rifle home headed to the range 500 fps variation between top and lowest velocity....NEVER used RL-22 again....So yes temperature will affect you velocities IMHO

IF you switch primers be sure to reduce your load by 10% and work back up just to be sure.

Burris E1 scope 4-16 sighted in at 16x........ wonder bar....shot at a coyote on 4x.......he kept looking high in the sky every time the bullets went over his head.....so yes your point of aim will change even with so called "modern" scopes.....

NOW all my varmint guns wear fixed powered scopes.....KISS.
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  #28  
Old 12-01-2017, 06:49 AM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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Default Who knows?

Never had an issue with RE#22 in -20 or worse plus never had issues with quality Leupold scopes. Is that Burris an older one or the new made in the Philippines version?
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