Trespassers - again.

[Blackacre]

Kind of sad that this is my first post on this board. I came here because I'm new to hunting and was looking for some tips and information for newbies, but this thread caught my eye, and sadly I felt compelled to respond.

I'm not going to post some screed about "them city folks", or "country bumpkins" as I grew up in the country and now live in the city, and frankly...there are ***holes everywhere regardless of where you live.

Anyway, just my two cents, but, it's the man's property, that gives him the right to control access to the property. Sure it looks like a bunch of dopey tourists riding down a road, but I see two considerations here:

1) this is clearly not the first time that he has had trespassers on his property, and as he has indicated, someone or some people have gone out of their way to vandalize and force entry into his property. It sounds like it's an ongoing issue and someone or some people are going out of their way to purposefully trespass on his property. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of you will not just waltz onto a farmer's field looking for game to hunt without asking for permission, the OP deserves the same level of consideration as the farmer does. Whether these people were hunting or not is of no consequence.

2) I'm a lawyer, so the first thing I thought was, wait until one of these idiots trespassing on OPs property falls off a horse or injures themselves in some other way and then decides to sue the OP because it happened on his property, trespass or not. In a society of lawsuit happy jerkoffs this is a real concern nowadays.

Anyway, happy to be a part of the board

[artie]

The other thing we are not looking at is the owner responsible if someone gets hurt on his land. If that is the case I would not want anyone without permission on my place.

[Zuludog]

Originally Posted by Blackacre

Kind of sad that this is my first post on this board. I came here because I'm new to hunting and was looking for some tips and information for newbies, but this thread caught my eye, and sadly I felt compelled to respond.

I'm not going to post some screed about "them city folks", or "country bumpkins" as I grew up in the country and now live in the city, and frankly...there are ***holes everywhere regardless of where you live.

Anyway, just my two cents, but, it's the man's property, that gives him the right to control access to the property. Sure it looks like a bunch of dopey tourists riding down a road, but I see two considerations here:

1) this is clearly not the first time that he has had trespassers on his property, and as he has indicated, someone or some people have gone out of their way to vandalize and force entry into his property. It sounds like it's an ongoing issue and someone or some people are going out of their way to purposefully trespass on his property. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of you will not just waltz onto a farmer's field looking for game to hunt without asking for permission, the OP deserves the same level of consideration as the farmer does. Whether these people were hunting or not is of no consequence.

2) I'm a lawyer, so the first thing I thought was, wait until one of these idiots trespassing on OPs property falls off a horse or injures themselves in some other way and then decides to sue the OP because it happened on his property, trespass or not. In a society of lawsuit happy jerkoffs this is a real concern nowadays.

Anyway, happy to be a part of the board

Good first post, full of common sense.
Welcome to AO.

[LJalberta]

Originally Posted by Blackacre

Kind of sad that this is my first post on this board. I came here because I'm new to hunting and was looking for some tips and information for newbies, but this thread caught my eye, and sadly I felt compelled to respond.

I'm not going to post some screed about "them city folks", or "country bumpkins" as I grew up in the country and now live in the city, and frankly...there are ***holes everywhere regardless of where you live.

Anyway, just my two cents, but, it's the man's property, that gives him the right to control access to the property. Sure it looks like a bunch of dopey tourists riding down a road, but I see two considerations here:

1) this is clearly not the first time that he has had trespassers on his property, and as he has indicated, someone or some people have gone out of their way to vandalize and force entry into his property. It sounds like it's an ongoing issue and someone or some people are going out of their way to purposefully trespass on his property. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of you will not just waltz onto a farmer's field looking for game to hunt without asking for permission, the OP deserves the same level of consideration as the farmer does. Whether these people were hunting or not is of no consequence.

2) I'm a lawyer, so the first thing I thought was, wait until one of these idiots trespassing on OPs prope falls off a horse or injures themselves in some other way and then decides to sue the OP because it happened on his property, trespass or not. In a society of lawsuit happy jerkoffs this is a real concern nowadays.

Anyway, happy to be a part of the board

Good post, welcome to the board, and I like your forum names property law reference.

[boonedocks]

The time that I have the most trespassing issues is during blueberry season, those little ol grannies ( Babbas) just stroll right past my signs as if they don’t see them. I then feel stupid when I go to tell them that they are more than welcome to pick all the Berry’s that they can carry, but that they have to check with Me first, as I could be shooting clays or target practicing that day!!! It’s a little unnerving approaching strangers in the bush, even if you own that particular piece of bush. My dogs usually scare them long before I can get there which makes for some comical/ awkward moments.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The biggest problems I have ever had with trespassers have been locals, natives and neighbors. They just assume they can go wherever they want because they live there. City folks and those new to the area have always asked for permission. This constant rant against City people masques who the real problem are.

You must have some nasty locals and neighbors, in the probably hundreds of threads I have read on trespassing, this is the only one I have read where it is the locals and neighbors that trespass and the city folks who ALWAYS asked for permission.

[NCC]

When I lived northwest of Valleyview, my problems with trespassers were almost exclusively with locals.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Blackacre

Kind of sad that this is my first post on this board. I came here because I'm new to hunting and was looking for some tips and information for newbies, but this thread caught my eye, and sadly I felt compelled to respond.

I'm not going to post some screed about "them city folks", or "country bumpkins" as I grew up in the country and now live in the city, and frankly...there are ***holes everywhere regardless of where you live.

Anyway, just my two cents, but, it's the man's property, that gives him the right to control access to the property. Sure it looks like a bunch of dopey tourists riding down a road, but I see two considerations here:

1) this is clearly not the first time that he has had trespassers on his property, and as he has indicated, someone or some people have gone out of their way to vandalize and force entry into his property. It sounds like it's an ongoing issue and someone or some people are going out of their way to purposefully trespass on his property. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of you will not just waltz onto a farmer's field looking for game to hunt without asking for permission, the OP deserves the same level of consideration as the farmer does. Whether these people were hunting or not is of no consequence.

2) I'm a lawyer, so the first thing I thought was, wait until one of these idiots trespassing on OPs property falls off a horse or injures themselves in some other way and then decides to sue the OP because it happened on his property, trespass or not. In a society of lawsuit happy jerkoffs this is a real concern nowadays.

Anyway, happy to be a part of the board

Comes down to respect, welcome future Mod

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Blackacre

Kind of sad that this is my first post on this board. I came here because I'm new to hunting and was looking for some tips and information for newbies, but this thread caught my eye, and sadly I felt compelled to respond.

I'm not going to post some screed about "them city folks", or "country bumpkins" as I grew up in the country and now live in the city, and frankly...there are ***holes everywhere regardless of where you live.

Anyway, just my two cents, but, it's the man's property, that gives him the right to control access to the property. Sure it looks like a bunch of dopey tourists riding down a road, but I see two considerations here:

1) this is clearly not the first time that he has had trespassers on his property, and as he has indicated, someone or some people have gone out of their way to vandalize and force entry into his property. It sounds like it's an ongoing issue and someone or some people are going out of their way to purposefully trespass on his property. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of you will not just waltz onto a farmer's field looking for game to hunt without asking for permission, the OP deserves the same level of consideration as the farmer does. Whether these people were hunting or not is of no consequence.

2) I'm a lawyer, so the first thing I thought was, wait until one of these idiots trespassing on OPs property falls off a horse or injures themselves in some other way and then decides to sue the OP because it happened on his property, trespass or not. In a society of lawsuit happy jerkoffs this is a real concern nowadays.

Anyway, happy to be a part of the board

Agree with most of your post but if you are a lawyer you should be aware that in Alberta landowners are protected from lawsuits from other folks using their land for hunting, fishing or other recreation, whether they are their with permission or not. No need to make landowners afraid of providing access for a reason that isn't justified.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by NCC

When I lived northwest of Valleyview, my problems with trespassers were almost exclusively with locals.

In the past five years I have spoken with three landowners about trespassers. Not a lot of experience, but they all conveyed the biggest problem was with locals and neighbors.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Agree with most of your post but if you are a lawyer you should be aware that in Alberta landowners are protected from lawsuits from other folks using their land for hunting, fishing or other recreation, whether they are their with permission or not. No need to make landowners afraid of providing access for a reason that isn't justified.

Wasn't there a guy ( radio host by the name of Leamon?)
That sued a Hutterite colony a few years back fir getting injured on their property when he fell off a horse ?
Cat

[LJalberta]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Agree with most of your post but if you are a lawyer you should be aware that in Alberta landowners are protected from lawsuits from other folks using their land for hunting, fishing or other recreation, whether they are their with permission or not. No need to make landowners afraid of providing access for a reason that isn't justified.

I was under the impression this is not absolute whatsoever. Where are you getting this from? I'm not trying to be rude, but genuinely interested in learning about this.

[Blackacre]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Agree with most of your post but if you are a lawyer you should be aware that in Alberta landowners are protected from lawsuits from other folks using their land for hunting, fishing or other recreation, whether they are their with permission or not. No need to make landowners afraid of providing access for a reason that isn't justified.

Not quite what I said. People using a landowner's land for "recreational use" (recreation not being defined in the Occupier's Liability Act), are treated as "trespassers" for the purposes of determining any possible liability of the occupier. In general, an "occupier", which can include a landowner, owes no duty of care to a trespasser, subject to certain other considerations, such as if the occupier is deemed to have been willful or reckless in their conduct, in which case they can be held liable for damages to a trespasser (there are also other considerations at possible play here for the OP as he has cameras up and is aware that people are trespassing on his property, including children).

So, my point is not that landowners are going to be held liable for injuries sustained by recreational users or trespassers on their property; the Act attempts to limit such liability. However, in my previous post I reference people suing the OP; I did not say "successfully" suing the OP. That's the problem though, a lawsuit does not have to be successful to wreak havoc and cause financial hardship to a Defendant. A lawsuit can be absolute garbage (I see them all the time), but it can drag a defendant through the Court system, subject them to stress and emotional hardship, cost them significant legal fees to defend (if they hire a lawyer), and at the end of the day, if the Defendant is successful they can still be out of pocket for a significant amount -- in Canada our Courts rarely award full-indemnity costs for the successful party, most parties are lucky if costs cover 30% of their fees.

tl;dr -- doesn't matter if the landowner is protected from liability, that isn't going to stop someone from suing - the law suit alone, even if frivolous or groundless can still cost a Defendant time, stress, and money, all of which will never full be recovered.

I'm not trying to scare landowners here, certainly not my aim, but I read a post from a couple of years ago in which there was a debate about providing a landowner with a written waiver of liability. The debate was pretty evenly divided. I guess my view on it is that if you show up at a landowner's door with a legal waiver of liability setting out that regardless of what harm might befall you on the landowner's property, you waive all right to sue the landowner, that might go a long way to encouraging the landowner to give you permission to hunt on their property. Just a thought.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

In the past five years I have spoken with three landowners about trespassers. Not a lot of experience, but they all conveyed the biggest problem was with locals and neighbors.

Same here. Nope sorry not allowing access because they just keep catching local folks trespassing so no sense in “letting” anyone on, they just go anyways. I’ve lived in both. Always locals that know if your watching or not.
Trespassers are bad no matter where they are from.

[Taiga]

Nothing ****es me off more than trespassers, especially the ones who cut fence and drive past huge posted Private Land, No Trespassing signs, as well as You Are on Camera signs. What do these people plan to do if they actually shoot something and get busted?

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Blackacre

Not quite what I said. People using a landowner's land for "recreational use" (recreation not being defined in the Occupier's Liability Act), are treated as "trespassers" for the purposes of determining any possible liability of the occupier. In general, an "occupier", which can include a landowner, owes no duty of care to a trespasser, subject to certain other considerations, such as if the occupier is deemed to have been willful or reckless in their conduct, in which case they can be held liable for damages to a trespasser (there are also other considerations at possible play here for the OP as he has cameras up and is aware that people are trespassing on his property, including children).

So, my point is not that landowners are going to be held liable for injuries sustained by recreational users or trespassers on their property; the Act attempts to limit such liability. However, in my previous post I reference people suing the OP; I did not say "successfully" suing the OP. That's the problem though, a lawsuit does not have to be successful to wreak havoc and cause financial hardship to a Defendant. A lawsuit can be absolute garbage (I see them all the time), but it can drag a defendant through the Court system, subject them to stress and emotional hardship, cost them significant legal fees to defend (if they hire a lawyer), and at the end of the day, if the Defendant is successful they can still be out of pocket for a significant amount -- in Canada our Courts rarely award full-indemnity costs for the successful party, most parties are lucky if costs cover 30% of their fees.

tl;dr -- doesn't matter if the landowner is protected from liability, that isn't going to stop someone from suing - the law suit alone, even if frivolous or groundless can still cost a Defendant time, stress, and money, all of which will never full be recovered.

I'm not trying to scare landowners here, certainly not my aim, but I read a post from a couple of years ago in which there was a debate about providing a landowner with a written waiver of liability. The debate was pretty evenly divided. I guess my view on it is that if you show up at a landowner's door with a legal waiver of liability setting out that regardless of what harm might befall you on the landowner's property, you waive all right to sue the landowner, that might go a long way to encouraging the landowner to give you permission to hunt on their property. Just a thought.

Happy you are here and even happier that your advice is free.

Yes, we should all hire a lawyer to write up additional contacts to increase the potential for accessing private lands. Landowners Love signing legal documents for allowing visitors. And as a bonus, we can sue the lawyer when their contract fails, or doesn't fail.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

In the past five years I have spoken with three landowners about trespassers. Not a lot of experience, but they all conveyed the biggest problem was with locals and neighbors.

I know it makes the city folk feel better when their reading or writing statements like yours but I live in a rural area and talk off and on to probably 50 or more land owners off and on throughout the year. There are a few locals that get caught for sure but the most by a huge margin are city folk or people who do not live in the area.

My wifes nephew caught three guys last year trespassing and was threatened when he approached them. He called his Dad but by the time he got there they were gone. All that property is now chained off and has cameras at the gates.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by LJalberta

I was under the impression this is not absolute whatsoever. Where are you getting this from? I'm not trying to be rude, but genuinely interested in learning about this.

Landowner rights
Limited landowner liability in the case of injury of a trail user
Alberta law specifically limits the liability of landowners who allow uncompensated recreational use of their property: a landowner’s liability for a Waskahegan Trail user of their land is no different than for a common trespasser. (See https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/st...000-c-o-4.html under Recreational Users Section 6.1.)

[Blackacre]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Happy you are here and even happier that your advice is free.

Yes, we should all hire a lawyer to write up additional contacts to increase the potential for accessing private lands. Landowners Love signing legal documents for allowing visitors. And as a bonus, we can sue the lawyer when their contract fails, or doesn't fail.

Haha. That's why I haven't offered to draft a template Waiver of Liability for people to use when seeking permission to access a landowner's property.

It's a tough call - this was what the debate was about in that previous thread. Some took the position that if you show up at a landowner's door with a legal document, even if it is intended to protect the landowner, that landowner might think "jesus, I'm not getting involved in this, get off my property." Others felt that it would communicate to the landowner that you are going out of your way to communicate your good faith in using their land.

I guess it would probably depend on the landowner in each specific case.

As a I said earlier, I'm totally new to hunting, so I guess I will find out this season when I start approaching farmers about hunting on their land.

[slopeshunter]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Wasn't there a guy ( radio host by the name of Leamon?)
That sued a Hutterite colony a few years back fir getting injured on their property when he fell off a horse ?
Cat

Yes, I believe you’re right. Don’t recall offhand what came of it though.

[trigger7mm]

In the world that I live in, my neighbours and I are all good friends, and all
seem to there for each other. I hunt with them, they hunt with me. We look out for each other, and greed amongst us doesn’t exist. There will be a day when you are in a real bind, and having your neighbours to count on will be a huge asset, and vice versa. Giving neighbours access to your land shouldn’t be an issue in my mind. Putting signs out to others that say “for permission to access, please call ......” would be the way to go I think. That way you would probably get more of the respect that you seem you are looking for. This would also let you know why they want access, and you could have them come see you in person first. Let people know that they get a chance, and if they disrespect your property, them they will not be invited back. There are still many good people out there that love to enjoy the outdoors, but can’t afford to buy a property of their own. Usually giving a little ends up paying off big time in the end. If you want exclusive rights to hunt on your own property, then by all means. No question about that, but to want to completely lock it down all year long seems a bit un neighbourly to me. Just my opinion. Don’t mean to be a jerk here.

[last minute]

Originally Posted by Taiga

What do these people plan to do if they actually shoot something and get busted?

lie and deny

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

In the past five years I have spoken with three landowners about trespassers. Not a lot of experience, but they all conveyed the biggest problem was with locals and neighbors.

About the furthest thing from the truth where we live. I’ve never once caught a local trespassing, but certainly a big pile of people not from this area.

[Scottmisfits]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

In the world that I live in, my neighbours and I are all good friends, and all
seem to there for each other. I hunt with them, they hunt with me. We look out for each other, and greed amongst us doesn’t exist. There will be a day when you are in a real bind, and having your neighbours to count on will be a huge asset, and vice versa. Giving neighbours access to your land shouldn’t be an issue in my mind. Putting signs out to others that say “for permission to access, please call ......” would be the way to go I think. That way you would probably get more of the respect that you seem you are looking for. This would also let you know why they want access, and you could have them come see you in person first. Let people know that they get a chance, and if they disrespect your property, them they will not be invited back. There are still many good people out there that love to enjoy the outdoors, but can’t afford to buy a property of their own. Usually giving a little ends up paying off big time in the end. If you want exclusive rights to hunt on your own property, then by all means. No question about that, but to want to completely lock it down all year long seems a bit un neighbourly to me. Just my opinion. Don’t mean to be a jerk here.

Why would he change the signs. If you’re a local, talk with the guy before going on the land. It shouldn’t take more than a couple of phone calls to find out who’s land it is and do the RESPECTFUL thing. It’s not up to the land owner to be putting his name out, it’s on the people who would like access.

Whether it’s the “mean gang member grandparents” or just mom and pop next door, a simple phone call asking to access is the respectful thing. I’m sure if they had asked, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Now, if it’s a trail riding company, they better damn well have asked first. They are making money off of this guys land, no communication before hand? To me, that’s a big red flag as to how these guys operate.

Plain and simple, this whole thing comes down to respect. All you naysayers really should be ashamed of yourselves for saying that it doesn’t matter and making fun of the OP. Neighbors or not, it doesn’t matter. It’s not your neighbors land, they don’t know what you may be doing on it that may have created a hazard. Ask permission!

[Wolfsnare]

Maybe sell the land to someone who doesn’t care about some young people riding on horses and then you won’t b so worked up all the time about people being perfect. Wow sure hope you have never set foot on someone else’s place ( like coming up drive way to get permission ... that’s trespassing... but u can dictate what’s right and wrong ). Young kids doing something good and productive 👍👍👍. Land owners like yourself is y people are the way they are ( my island get off. What a world. Lol lol

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Wolfsnare

Maybe sell the land to someone who doesn’t care about some young people riding on horses and then you won’t b so worked up all the time about people being perfect. Wow sure hope you have never set foot on someone else’s place ( like coming up drive way to get permission ... that’s trespassing... but u can dictate what’s right and wrong ). Young kids doing something good and productive 👍👍👍. Land owners like yourself is y people are the way they are ( my island get off. What a world. Lol lol

What an ignorant post!

You guys blaming the landowner are a joke! You want access to private land, better damn well ask first. It doesn’t matter what they were doing, they are breaking the law, period.

[Scottmisfits]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

What an ignorant post!

Very well said!

Very much a double standard with a lot of guys around here in regards to access. During hunting season they want the book thrown at trespassers but any other time of the year it's just fine.

[buckbrush]

Lots of guys condoning trespassing here. Who they are or what they are riding doesn't have much to do with it.

Not much different than taking a guys truck for a drive without asking and returning it later expecting no problems...

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by trigger7mm

In the world that I live in, my neighbours and I are all good friends, and all
seem to there for each other. I hunt with them, they hunt with me. We look out for each other, and greed amongst us doesn’t exist. There will be a day when you are in a real bind, and having your neighbours to count on will be a huge asset, and vice versa. Giving neighbours access to your land shouldn’t be an issue in my mind. Putting signs out to others that say “for permission to access, please call ......” would be the way to go I think. That way you would probably get more of the respect that you seem you are looking for. This would also let you know why they want access, and you could have them come see you in person first. Let people know that they get a chance, and if they disrespect your property, them they will not be invited back. There are still many good people out there that love to enjoy the outdoors, but can’t afford to buy a property of their own. Usually giving a little ends up paying off big time in the end. If you want exclusive rights to hunt on your own property, then by all means. No question about that, but to want to completely lock it down all year long seems a bit un neighbourly to me. Just my opinion. Don’t mean to be a jerk here.

Understood, but good neighbors don't cut off their neighbor's locks.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by crazy_davey

What an ignorant post!

You guys blaming the landowner are a joke! You want access to private land, better damn well ask first. It doesn’t matter what they were doing, they are breaking the law, period.

Exactly! Either get permission, or stay off of the property, it's that simple.