Five reasons to BAN Spears and Atlatls

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by BigRackLover

Where do you get this chit?

We respond to all questions - check out a newsletter. Why are you (and others) demanding explannation/stance from the ABA before all the discussion/facts have been presented but not from other (larger) groups that participate in AGMAG.

Your selective retention of information already supplied has become sadly laughable.


I get this Chit from the executives of several AGMAG groups including the ABA, AFGA, SCI and ESRD, and from the many emails with individual members of these groups.



The AFGA and SCI have responded to the same question and have confirmed that they are opposed to the ABA Spear/Atlatl ban proposal and are opposed to wasting valuable time and effort on the new Legal Weapon discussion.


Take note of Deerhunter's complaints. While he appears to be directing is frustration at those trying to defend traditional hunting practices, his arguments are actually the same points that those of us (including AFGA and SCI) have been stating all along. This issue is taking up valuable time where limited resources should be focused on more important issues. However as in any case where any unjustified attack on hunting is close to eliminating an ethical and traditional form of hunting the effort must be made to deal with the anti-hunting group, which in this case happens to be the ABA.


Unfortunatly, the ABA Executive doesn't see things this way and would rather keep fighting to have Spears and Atlatls banned "Because two ABA members complained to Brent Watson".


I have already called out the ABA newsletter bluff in regards to a position statement. The ABA exec. are playing games and misleading its members in telling them they will develop a position AFTER the meetings. We all know that at that point the position of AGMAG members will already have been submitted and the decisions will already have been made. The ABA exec. are continuing to play a game of ignorance.


You an your fellow ABA executives are NOT answering this simple question. The ABA President has been directly asked by many ABA members and other people to state whether or not the ABA will continue to lobby for the banning of Spears and Atlatls at the May and Dec. AGMAG meetings?

As you just did again, the ABA executive refuse to answer with a simple yes or no.

[LBB]

What's your real agenda wb? You have been giving answers to all your questions, yet u continue to hammer on the ABA. The ABA has historical, worked to improve bowhunting pursuits in a ethical and professional manner (it's their mandate). Anyone that chooses to bowhunt in alberta has the ABA to thank for the extended seasons, the legalization of bow hunting,and numerous other bowhunting related benefits.
Brent Watson was performing his elected duties when members bring up concerns, agmag has a protocol has to how discussions and propsals are handled. ABA admits they could have worded the resolution differently, we have all worded statements poorly. So what's the big deal, there is going to be a discussion about the legality (pro and cons) of legal hunting equipment. The discussion takes place at many levels, with many stakeholders involved which the srd uses as reference while making a decision. I believe that with all the diversity involved with agmag they will bring to the table all the pros and cons from their perspective groups and a reasonable decision will be made. My hope is that everyone gets to hunt using their preferred method, but if someone can't it's going to be because agmag and srd decided against it,NOT ABA.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by LBB

What's your real agenda wb? You have been giving answers to all your questions, yet u continue to hammer on the ABA. The ABA has historical, worked to improve bowhunting pursuits in a ethical and professional manner (it's their mandate). Anyone that chooses to bowhunt in alberta has the ABA to thank for the extended seasons, the legalization of bow hunting,and numerous other bowhunting related benefits.
Brent Watson was performing his elected duties when members bring up concerns, agmag has a protocol has to how discussions and propsals are handled. ABA admits they could have worded the resolution differently, we have all worded statements poorly. So what's the big deal, there is going to be a discussion about the legality (pro and cons) of legal hunting equipment. The discussion takes place at many levels, with many stakeholders involved which the srd uses as reference while making a decision. I believe that with all the diversity involved with agmag they will bring to the table all the pros and cons from their perspective groups and a reasonable decision will be made. My hope is that everyone gets to hunt using their preferred method, but if someone can't it's going to be because agmag and srd decided against it,NOT ABA.

My agenda is to keep the use of Spears and Atlatl/darts legal for hunting. The only AGMAG group seeking to have these traditional weapons banned is the ABA thus they are the opposition in this issue. The ABA exec. HAVE NOT answered this important question,
"Will the ABA will continue to lobby for the banning of Spears and Atlatls at the May and Dec. AGMAG meetings?".


The ABA executive and president's continued refusal to provide an answer is troubling. It is not a difficult question.


The ABA exec. have not been truthful in their explanation of the ABA Spear/Atlatl ban proposal nor will they now express their position regarding these weapons at the upcoming AGMAG meetings. There is a lot of deception occurring at the hands of the ABA exec. and I find this both insulting to the Alberta hunting community and dangerous to the AGMAG process.


I have and will continue to offer support to the ABA through providing detailed research of hunting data that will offer greater opportunity for the bowhunting community. Since I started this thread, I have provided ABA associate groups new research that the ABA can use to strengthen a case for increased bowhunting allowable harvest. My agenda here is not against the ABA as a group nor most of the objectives of the ABA. Please note when I use the term ABA Executive, not ABA. I do this to make the distinction between what the executives are independently doing opposed to the putting the weight of these actions on the ABA membership.

[LBB]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

My agenda is to keep the use of Spears and Atlatl/darts legal for hunting. The only AGMAG group seeking to have these traditional weapons banned is the ABA thus they are the opposition in this issue. The ABA exec. HAVE NOT answered this important question,
"Will the ABA will continue to lobby for the banning of Spears and Atlatls at the May and Dec. AGMAG meetings?".


The ABA executive and president's continued refusal to provide an answer is troubling. It is not a difficult question.




The ABA exec. have not been truthful in their explanation of the ABA Spear/Atlatl ban proposal nor will they now express their position regarding these weapons at the upcoming AGMAG meetings. There is a lot of deception occurring at the hands of the ABA exec. and I find this both insulting to the Alberta hunting community and dangerous to the AGMAG process.


I have and will continue to offer support to the ABA through providing detailed research of hunting data that will offer greater opportunity for the bowhunting community. Since I started this thread, I have provided ABA associate groups new research that the ABA can use to strengthen a case for increased bowhunting allowable harvest. My agenda here is not against the ABA as a group nor most of the objectives of the ABA. Please note when I use the term ABA Executive, not ABA. I do this to make the distinction between what the executives are independently doing opposed to the putting the weight of these actions on the ABA membership.

Can u explain what deception took place at the hands of the ABA executive . If your correct in saying ABA is the only opposition, then the decision will be left up to srd after all the stake holders submit their responses, and should be favorable.

[MilitaryHuntingandFishing]

What I don't get is why the ABA A bow hunting org has anything to say about Atlatal hunting. If I as a rifle hunter came after the ABA because I thought that bows were un ethical then there would be a problem. Why is this not the same.

Just because they hunt with a bow does not give them the right to regulate or restrict those that don't. Especially when they are doing it without the board and members consent in closed door sessions.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by MilitaryHuntingandFishing

What I don't get is why the ABA A bow hunting org has anything to say about Atlatal hunting. If I as a rifle hunter came after the ABA because I thought that bows were un ethical then there would be a problem. Why is this not the same.

Just because they hunt with a bow does not give them the right to regulate or restrict those that don't. Especially when they are doing it without the board and members consent in closed door sessions.

I think it has gone beyond just the ABA. I think someone with ESRD has a special hate going on for Spear and Atlatl hunting.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

This is nothing but a distraction over issues that are more important.
But you people eat it up. At least the 4 or 5 of you still beating this dead horse.

If it takes banning these things to move on, hurry up and ban them. Small sacrifice IMO.

There are a lot more than 4 or 5 people concerned about this issue and the fact that the ABA has targeted a hunting group to try to ban the way that they hunt. An attack on them is an attack on all hunters. What could be more important than that?

Just imagine the whining from the ABA if someone proposed banning longbows because they don't have sights and that could lead to an unethical kill. Would you still say that it was a small sacrifice and to hurry up and ban them so more important issues could be addressed?

[Okotokian]

A lot of people out there (and in here) proposing new rules, regulations, restrictions, fees, and bannings to solve imaginary problems.

[6.5swedeforelk]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

There are a lot more than 4 or 5 people concerned about this issue and the fact that the ABA has targeted a hunting group to try to ban the way that they hunt. An attack on them is an attack on all hunters. What could be more important than that...

What indeed?

This elitist attitude should be a concern to all hunters.

[dmcbride]

I have been talking with a lot of non hunters about this issue sense it came to my attention. Almost all the people I have talked to don't have a problem with spears and atlatls. In fact some of them would prefer that hunters used a method that is harder to be successful. They have said that, hunting now day's isn't really hunting. (For the record I support all forms of hunting) Some have said that they don't understand why people drive around and shoot animals from the road and how that can be considered hunting. Others don't like how animals can be shot from 500 yards plus, with out even knowing that they were being hunted. Others disagree with today's modern bows being considered an archery tool. Some appreciate the fact that someone wants to get back to how things have been done for thousands of years. Much the same as someone who wants to sail around the world like our ancestors did before all the new technology. Should we ban sailing around the world the way it has been done in the past because it isn't as safe as modern sailing? I don't think so. They understand why and understand that it takes a lot of effort and skill. Some have actually congratulated me on my quest to spear a deer like our ancestors did.

The ones that do have a problem, have a problem with hunting in general and doesn't matter which weapon is used.

It just blows my mind that they want to ban something cause 2 people complained and they don't now how to defend there use. How many people have complained about rifle hunters, bow hunters or hunting in general? There is a lot more video's on the internet of rifle and bow hunters that make us hunters look bad than there is spear and atlatl hunting. Fact is the best way to defend hunting is all user groups stick together when it come to defending hunting no matter which method is used.

I really hope this banning doesn't happen and I encourage anyone who hasn't sent a letter or email to please do so. You never know your method could be next on the chopping block.

[packhuntr]

Even if these methods are made illegal, who in thier right mind would follow the law on this. If one desires difficulty and challenge in thier persuit after weapon manufacturing and proficiency have been EARNED, honestly tell them that they are breaking laws. Anyone in opposition of this is simply out of line and surely nothing remotely close to what might be considered competent with regard to anything primitive. That is fact and any ABA member that honestly feels threatened by other primitive hunters, need only show up in opposition to this, with a couple of thier prized mule doe photos here and point will be proven lol. People really need to quit with all the politics, its getting a little bit rich. Lets get our heads out of our azzes.

[Full Curl Earl]

So in the end, spear chuckers and dart throwers are still speaking of scientific data in support of they're need to get blood on their hands, and have bored most opponents from the thread. But somehow the ABA, who I am not a member of but still don't like the spear and dart idea, are the villains?
Do folks really need another way to kill?
It all seems kinda petty in a complicated world. The powers that be will decide if these long abandoned (I feel for good reason) tools can offer quick humane kills, if the evidence, REAL evidence, shows they can, then I look forward to seeing one in the field in the future.
We have proven that a hunting world without rules ends with wiping animals off the prairies, as Walking Buffalo should know.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

So in the end, spear chuckers and dart throwers are still speaking of scientific data in support of they're need to get blood on their hands, and have bored most opponents from the thread. But somehow the ABA, who I am not a member of but still don't like the spear and dart idea, are the villains?
Do folks really need another way to kill?
It all seems kinda petty in a complicated world. The powers that be will decide if these long abandoned (I feel for good reason) tools can offer quick humane kills, if the evidence, REAL evidence, shows they can, then I look forward to seeing one in the field in the future.
We have proven that a hunting world without rules ends with wiping animals off the prairies, as Walking Buffalo should know.

It is not"just another way to kill".It is a way to kill that was here long before bows and arrows and guns.

[casual observer]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Do folks really need another way to kill?

Your small minded short sighted way of thinking is disgusting, but not shocking. In this ME ME ME world we live in, it is becoming far too common that people can't see anything past the end of their snout and what immediately affects them this second. Are you honestly so obtuse that you can't see how an attack to abolish one form of hunting is a stepping stone to coming after your chosen way next? The same applies to the gun debate where watching gun grabbers ban handguns because some hunters only hunt with rifles and shotguns is accepted. Make no mistake, the anti crowd will not stop their argument until they have achieved their goal. I don't understand why some guys are willing to help them win. It amazes me that soldiers of an army are willing to let their comrades be killed while they watch because those guys aren't doing it MY way.

[Full Curl Earl]

You know Casual Observer, your name calling rants getting old. Why so much anger as opposed to an educated debate? I have posted a couple times that I'm not on for the addition of these weapons, and someone always resorts to name calling and derogatory comments. That suits me fine, it just supports my view.
And never use military service as your stance for support of a way to add additional hunting opportunities, that level of disrespect won't be tolerated.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

So in the end, spear chuckers and dart throwers are still speaking of scientific data in support of they're need to get blood on their hands, and have bored most opponents from the thread. But somehow the ABA, who I am not a member of but still don't like the spear and dart idea, are the villains?
Do folks really need another way to kill?
It all seems kinda petty in a complicated world. The powers that be will decide if these long abandoned (I feel for good reason) tools can offer quick humane kills, if the evidence, REAL evidence, shows they can, then I look forward to seeing one in the field in the future.
We have proven that a hunting world without rules ends with wiping animals off the prairies, as Walking Buffalo should know.

Confused here, first you want reel evidence on quick humane kills then you state that without rules and regulations we will wipe the animals off the prairie. They must have a great success rate for you to be worried about that.

Here are a few video's of spear hunting. Yes there are some bad ones out there. But for every bad spear hunt there is hundreds more of bow and rifle hunting and we don't need to be showing any of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rnebufjo30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfmOzW1KEKA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4_PoTehPTQ

[Full Curl Earl]

You just keep talking the same old circle. Your right, a lawless no rules fish and game system is exactly what we all need. No more .22 cal or 40 lb rules, because we're all proficient.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to hunt with it, but It must be scientifically proven, and YouTube does not qualify. Until that happens I will back those supporting only clean harvest equipment. Just like you, I get to decide who I cheer for. And if your confused about wheather or not this is an appropriate place for me to voice this, go back and read the title of this thread.
Out for now !

[Mr. Dynamite]

Originally Posted by MilitaryHuntingandFishing

What I don't get is why the ABA A bow hunting org has anything to say about Atlatal hunting. If I as a rifle hunter came after the ABA because I thought that bows were un ethical then there would be a problem. Why is this not the same.

Just because they hunt with a bow does not give them the right to regulate or restrict those that don't. Especially when they are doing it without the board and members consent in closed door sessions.

Well put post! But they do deserve the right to restrict what they don't like -- look at them and crossbows!

[MilitaryHuntingandFishing]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dynamite

Well put post! But they do deserve the right to restrict what they don't like -- look at them and crossbows!

Thank you Mr. Dynamite if you would like I wrote a lot more of my thoughts here http://militaryhuntingandfishing.com...to-ban-atlatl/

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

You just keep talking the same old circle. Your right, a lawless no rules fish and game system is exactly what we all need. No more .22 cal or 40 lb rules, because we're all proficient.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to hunt with it, but It must be scientifically proven, and YouTube does not qualify. Until that happens I will back those supporting only clean harvest equipment. Just like you, I get to decide who I cheer for. And if your confused about wheather or not this is an appropriate place for me to voice this, go back and read the title of this thread.
Out for now !

Ok, I don't know what kind of scientific data you require, but here is some scientific data.

Easton’s recommendations for KE.

KE

Hunting Usage

< 25 ft. lbs.

Small Game

25-41 ft. lbs.

Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)

42-65 ft. lbs.

Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)

> 65 ft. lbs.

Toughest Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly, etc.)

Now by no means am I a scientist or have a master in physics but I will do my best to prove my point.
I know my spear weight is 3lb. 9.6oz. So just to make things simple let say 3.5lb. which is actually less weight. 1 pound is 7000 grains. So I have 24500 grains. This number can be entered into any online archery calculator. So now to figure out how fast the spear is going to be travelling at point of impact. I am going to be hunting from a tree at about 20-25 feet. So if I enter the height and weight here http://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed I get 10.85m/s which is roughly 34f/s. So I enter the numbers here http://archerycalculator.com/archery...um-calculator/ and get 62 KE.

Now keep in mind that this is if I just drop the spear from the tree, I get enough energy to to harvest large game according to Easton. I have also been very conservative with my numbers and I already have enough energy and I haven't even thrown it yet. Basically what I am saying is that a 2 year old could drop this spear from a tree at 20ft and the spear would have enough energy to harvest large game according to Easton.

So what is clean harvesting equipment? If I had a bow with a draw weight of 40lb. I would be harded pressed to get 62KE which is a legal method which I assume has been scientifically proven? My spear head is bigger than the minimum broadhead required by law. What makes one better than the other?

Fact is it comes down to the user and their effective range of the weapon which applies to every method of hunting. How do we regulate a user and the weapon range? In my opinion we can't, it would cost a fortune and everybody would have to be tested with there method of harvesting. Not all people can shoot rifles out passed 400 yards. Should this be regulated? I don't think so. I could list hundreds of examples. For example, My comfort zone with a spear is about 10' from the base of the tree. My comfort zone with my bow is about 30 yards. My comfort zone with a rifle off hand is 100 yards. Give me a good rest I'm comfortable out to 400 yards.

This is my personal opinion but someone who takes the time to make a spear is going to have the better ethics than the first time hunter who just got his first magnum calibur rifle going road hunting with his friends. This is a bigger issue than worrying if a spear hunter goes out of there comfort zone and wounds an animal.

If Spears and Atlatls need to be regulated they can follow the same requirements for archery. They are all cutting weapons and if the head is big enough and it has enough KE it should be legal. They all will humanly kill with a well placed shot.

[catnthehat]

I don't see an Atlatl or spear being allowed into the archery only seasons after all they are not archery tackle.
Nothing wrong with them in a regular season however , and as far as regulating them hoes what for?
The people that use them know full well the capabilities and the distances involved in making a clean kill.
I don't think that the people using these have an overpowering desire to get blood on their hands either, of they would simply use rifles and shotguns ...,.
Cat

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

You just keep talking the same old circle. Your right, a lawless no rules fish and game system is exactly what we all need. No more .22 cal or 40 lb rules, because we're all proficient.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to hunt with it, but It must be scientifically proven, and YouTube does not qualify. Until that happens I will back those supporting only clean harvest equipment. Just like you, I get to decide who I cheer for. And if your confused about wheather or not this is an appropriate place for me to voice this, go back and read the title of this thread.
Out for now !

You should know as well as anyone that a "clean harvest" is first and foremost dependant upon the hunter. No regulation will be able to stop people from taking bad shots due to their own ability or judgement. Since we are not talking carrots here I will use the term "clean kill"....


Scientifically, the use of physics is the true measure of a weapons potential.
Can a spear or dart head cut well enough for a "clean kill"? Since spear/dart hunters are using the same methodology as archery or crossbow hunters regarding materials and sharpening techniques, the answer to the question is the same for all of these te3chniques of hunting with a sharp stick.

We are thus down to physical attributes defined as Kinetic Energy, Momentum, and Sectional density.

As most people seem to be focused on KE, here is cut from the tested comparison research paper included below.

KINETIC ENERGY CALCULATIONS
In Descending Order

Projectile: Weight: Velocity: Kinetic Energy
.30-06 Rifle 180 grains 2600 fps 2701 ft. lbs.
.357 magnum Pistol 125 grains 1450 583
Light Spear 2 pounds 73.5 167
Heavy Spear 5 pounds 37 106
Heavy Dart 6 ounces 103 62
Modern Arrow 540 grains 220 58
Light Dart 3 ounces 125 45
Primitive Arrow 500 grains 165 29


Here is the full research paper for you to judge how Spears and Atlatl/darts compare to other weapons that can be used to make a "clean kill".

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I don't see an Atlatl or spear being allowed into the archery only seasons after all they are not archery tackle.
Nothing wrong with them in a regular season however , and as far as regulating them hoes what for?
The people that use them know full well the capabilities and the distances involved in making a clean kill.
I don't think that the people using these have an overpowering desire to get blood on their hands either, of they would simply use rifles and shotguns ...,.
Cat

I dunno Cat. If i were using a spear or dart thrower i guarantee you i would be found playing in archery season. That is what its for, with archery equipment being the most advanced equipment for allowable use. This really is a no brainer. I am primarily an archer, very little rifle use anymore. I cannot and would not back anyone or anything stating that early season "archery" need exclude even more primitive methods than such. And again, i would just go hunting if it were me playing with these tools.

[u_cant_rope_the_wind]

BAN BAN BAN BAN cmon everyone jump on the BAN Wagon

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I dunno Cat. If i were using a spear or dart thrower i guarantee you i would be found playing in archery season. That is what its for, with archery equipment being the most advanced equipment for allowable use. This really is a no brainer. I am primarily an archer, very little rifle use anymore. I cannot and would not back anyone or anything stating that early season "archery" need exclude even more primitive methods than such. And again, i would just go hunting if it were me playing with these tools.

I would have no issue using mine in a " primitive " season where they allow all manners of shotguns and inline things but you may as well let the cross bows in there too - which I have no issue with!
Cat

[calgarychef]

I like the idea of spear hunting and I have one and will use it. I don't think they belong in archery season and by definition they don't. If they were allowed it would open another can of worms. In a primitive season they would belong, just like PRB muzzle loaders, bows, etc. I don't see any reason why I'd want to hunt with one in the bow season.

I've got to reiterate how cowardly and underhanded I think this ABA proposal really is. Sadly I'll have to drop my membership this time around, I can't support this type of organization.

[Bolete]

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to hunt with it, but It must be scientifically proven, and YouTube does not qualify.

Respectfully - humans as a race have perhaps 10000+ worth of years experience killing game (and each other for that matter) with spears. From frogs and mice to mammoth and cave bears. Consider as well that much of this was before we had hardened and sharpened steel spear heads. One could even argue that the fact we even exist today is in part due to our hunting prowess with spears.

How much more proof were you hoping for?

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by Bolete

Respectfully - humans as a race have perhaps 10000+ worth of years experience killing game (and each other for that matter) with spears. From frogs and mice to mammoth and cave bears. Consider as well that much of this was before we had hardened and sharpened steel spear heads. One could even argue that the fact we even exist today is in part due to our hunting prowess with spears.

How much more proof were you hoping for?

Frankly, I don't think you'll ever find enough proof.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Frankly, I don't think you'll ever find enough proof.

Lol, this is funny! You definitely know nothing of ALL OUR HERITAGE. Theres a lifetime and 20 more worth of anthropology and archaeological discovery and study of these very things man. If you know afew farmers , when you are scouting and or hunting, gently bring up the native artifact topic. There are an extremely large number of wonderful collections across the high plains. I will say no more. Other than all tools from archery on DOWN the technological ladder, in my opinion ARE legal in archery season and will through common sense remain so. Anyone in opposition of this is simply bored beyond belief , or stunned beyond belief.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Lol, this is funny! You definitely know nothing of ALL OUR HERITAGE. Theres a lifetime and 20 more worth of anthropology and archaeological discovery and study of these very things man. If you know afew farmers , when you are scouting and or hunting, gently bring up the native artifact topic. There are an extremely large number of wonderful collections across the high plains. I will say no more. Other than all tools from archery on DOWN the technological ladder, in my opinion ARE legal in archery season and will through common sense remain so. Anyone in opposition of this is simply bored beyond belief , or stunned beyond belief.

Well, you misunderstood my post completely. But do go on.