Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:55 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
No bullet in the pipe is as safe as it gets.
Except when you think there isn't and there is! Happens all the time. "i thought the gun was empty", not uncommon to hear in an accidental shooting
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:55 PM
winmag's Avatar
winmag winmag is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wetaskiwin
Posts: 346
Default loaded

be aware of your surroundings when hunting you might just one crack at it, practice total muzzle control, i beat it in to my boys, expect game when you least expect, not hunting crossing fences etc. open bolt muzzle control, always muzzle control. get it muzzle control. My dad shot a hole in his roof with his Luger woops wrong clip . I shot a hole in the floor of my mobile home working a bolt [ short story] , buddy blew both side windows out on his truck unloading while deer hunting had gun pointed at truck not his four buddy's, muzzle control always muzzle control , end of rant
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 04-13-2018, 06:59 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by winmag View Post
be aware of your surroundings when hunting you might just one crack at it, practice total muzzle control, i beat it in to my boys, expect game when you least expect, not hunting crossing fences etc. open bolt muzzle control, always muzzle control. get it muzzle control. My dad shot a hole in his roof with his Luger woops wrong clip . I shot a hole in the floor of my mobile home working a bolt [ short story] , buddy blew both side windows out on his truck unloading while deer hunting had gun pointed at truck not his four buddy's, muzzle control always muzzle control , end of rant
+1! Absolutely! As I've posted previously in this thread.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:08 PM
Bushrat's Avatar
Bushrat Bushrat is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 6,898
Default

Like many alluded to it is a matter of negligence and poor gun handling that causes most gun accidents. That said I have never heard of anybody ever being shot with a gun that doesn't have a cartridge in the chamber though thousands of hunters around the world have been killed or maimed over the decades with one in the chamber and somehow the safety got switched off or malfunctioned, it has happened to even the most adept practitioners of safety.That said the most life threatening part about hunting is the drive to and from the hunting area.

Each to their own.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:39 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
I never have to check my safety it occurs to me that if you "constantly check your safety" then you must be concerned that it isn't on safe? What will happen when you think it's safe but it isn't?
Not at all, what occurs to me is that I'm being responsible and safe. Thanks for trying to read my mind though and I'm sure some would say it's a short story at best.
Let's turn this thought process around shall we? What will happen when you think the gun is empty but it isn't? Or do you point the gun at any and everything because you're positive it's empty, intrinsically safe and no different than pointing a metal pipe at someone?

It's muzzle control, muzzle control and muzzle control above all else and that takes a conscious effort. Anything to do with one in, one out, safety on, safety off is relative to human memory and habit which we all know is fallible and it's failure has caused the death of untold numbers of people over the years.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:55 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YYC338 View Post
Except when you think there isn't and there is! Happens all the time. "i thought the gun was empty", not uncommon to hear in an accidental shooting

Which is exactly why I like carrying a break action shotgun, broken over my shoulder when hunting upland birds. If you slip or trip, the gun can't fire with the action open. It's also why actions must always be open when you are not shooting at trap/skeet/sporting clays.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 04-13-2018, 07:58 PM
obsessed1 obsessed1 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,919
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Which is exactly why I like carrying a break action shotgun, broken over my shoulder when hunting upland birds. If you slip or trip, the gun can't fire with the action open. It's also why actions must always be open when you are not shooting at trap/skeet/sporting clays.
What do you do while big game hunting?
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:14 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by obsessed1 View Post
What do you do while big game hunting?
See post #49
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 04-13-2018, 08:58 PM
calgarychef calgarychef is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YYC338 View Post
Not at all, what occurs to me is that I'm being responsible and safe. Thanks for trying to read my mind though and I'm sure some would say it's a short story at best.
Let's turn this thought process around shall we? What will happen when you think the gun is empty but it isn't? Or do you point the gun at any and everything because you're positive it's empty, intrinsically safe and no different than pointing a metal pipe at someone?

It's muzzle control, muzzle control and muzzle control above all else and that takes a conscious effort. Anything to do with one in, one out, safety on, safety off is relative to human memory and habit which we all know is fallible and it's failure has caused the death of untold numbers of people over the years.

Ok let's turn this around like you said.... I treat the gun as loaded and never point it in an unsafe direction. Just like the training taught us, I'm safe not stupid and I don't assume that because it's unloaded that I can ignore the other safety rules. Except that I'm not relying on a mechanical doodad for the just in case part where I fall or whatever might happen.

No one can realistically argue that a firearm is "safer" on safe than without one in the tube. That's an argument that falls flat pretty quick.
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:41 PM
YYC338 YYC338 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by calgarychef View Post
Ok let's turn this around like you said.... I treat the gun as loaded and never point it in an unsafe direction. Just like the training taught us, I'm safe not stupid and I don't assume that because it's unloaded that I can ignore the other safety rules. Except that I'm not relying on a mechanical doodad for the just in case part where I fall or whatever might happen.

No one can realistically argue that a firearm is "safer" on safe than without one in the tube. That's an argument that falls flat pretty quick.
OK, because you're not stupid perhaps you have all the statistics then. Please tell us, are more people killed or injured every year by a loaded firearm on safe during a fall or "whatever", or by a firearm that someone would swear in a court of law was empty? And that same "someone" in a surprising number of the cases you can find on the internet has even had military training which is higher level of firearms training than a lot of people get.

While you're at it, please direct me to the post in this thread where someone said a firearm on safe is safer than one without one in the tube. Or even someone's best memory that there isn't one in the tube.

Not speaking about anyone in particular, but some people do think they're perfect and never make mistakes and that's what gets people killed.
Reply With Quote
  #101  
Old 04-13-2018, 09:51 PM
triggerpress triggerpress is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 132
Default

If you want an education on unintentional discharges, go to Google Alerts and type in "accidental shooting." You'll get a single news summary every day via email of all the news stories in North America where those words are mentioned. It's eye opening to say the least, and the stories range from hilarious to tragic. If you have a new shooter in your house, have them read these news summaries for one month.

triggerpress
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 04-13-2018, 10:05 PM
Dubious Dubious is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,521
Default Please stop feeding the trolls

troll thread, this has been discussed extensively in many threads and every time it comes up to all you guys are at each other about it endlessly. This is right up there with the olden days of does glass flow troll baits.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 04-14-2018, 12:02 AM
Buckhead Buckhead is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Strathcona County
Posts: 1,939
Default

I always carry my rifle loaded with the safety on. That is what I choose to do and I feel it is safe.

For those that have no situational awareness, maybe it is best to stay at home on the porch.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 04-14-2018, 05:20 AM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,530
Default

Whether a gun is loaded or not, muzzle control is paramount to a person's safety and the safety off others, especially when it comes to equipment failure.
This is the big reason I cannot fathom the big deal about people suing Remington and winning- if the gun was pointed in a safe direction nobody would have been injured or killed , not the gun's fault, the person using it!
Unless I see an open action I automatically assume a gun is loaded, be it mine or someone Else's.
I have committed an ND when my wet glove slipped on thee hammer as I was letting it down- muzzle up and know one injured.
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 04-14-2018, 07:02 AM
sevenmil sevenmil is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 475
Default

If I am hunting whitetails or blackies in dense cover where there is a chance of a close shot, I have one in the pipe. Hunting out in open country I don't until I have found an animal I want. When the time is right, and that will depend on the situation, I may mean put one in the chamber and move in for a shot, or wait till I'm in position and chamber a round.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:37 AM
antlercarver antlercarver is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,391
Default Guns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhead View Post
I always carry my rifle loaded with the safety on. That is what I choose to do and I feel it is safe.

For those that have no situational awareness, maybe it is best to stay at home on the porch.
Considering that attitude I avoid opening day. Let us know what day and which way you are headed, I may chose the porch. And I am confident that I have eaten more wild meat than most and will continue to do so. Stay safe
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:46 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckhead View Post
I always carry my rifle loaded with the safety on. That is what I choose to do and I feel it is safe.

For those that have no situational awareness, maybe it is best to stay at home on the porch.
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:04 AM
Battle Rat Battle Rat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by antlercarver View Post
Considering that attitude I avoid opening day. Let us know what day and which way you are headed, I may chose the porch. And I am confident that I have eaten more wild meat than most and will continue to do so. Stay safe
That would be every day of rifle and bird season in every WMU someone is carrying a loaded chamber.
I'd get tired of the same view from the porch eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:08 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

There’s no right or wrong in such a topic.
Every situation will be different.

Have you ever tracked a wounded bear? If you have ever had this mis fortune, I’ll guarantee that you’ll be loaded and cocked, at the full ready.

Have you ever still hunted whitetail in the spruce bottoms? If you ever have, you’d be very well served to be again at the full ready, all cocked and locked.

If you’ve ever done pheasant’s without a dog(slow methodical elliptical circles, walking and stopping)[and no, this is a very lousy hunt, trust me I’ve been there]
Again loaded cocked and at the full ready.

See the underlying premise! “At the full ready” that’s two hands on the firearm, fully alert, maintaining situational awareness, by this very action you are in full control of your muzzle direction, you’d know where others in your hunting party are, and again exercise disciplined muzzle control. Of course it’s loaded and cocked, safety on, or perhaps the slide on a pump action at half retracted, again two hands, and your head on a swivel situations here. And your finger off the trigger!

If your half stepping and slinging your rifle over your shoulder, or even just making a move through the under brush or on a trail as a means of going from A to B what’s the point of being locked and loaded?

Two totally different scenarios, two totally different ways of handling the situation.
__________________


There are no absolutes

Last edited by Dick284; 04-14-2018 at 09:15 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:12 AM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: East Central Alberta
Posts: 8,315
Default

Don’t know if there are any stats to back up my position, but I would say that 99% of all “accidental/negligent” discharges result from fingers on the trigger.
__________________
Old Guys Rule
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:20 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Don’t know if there are any stats to back up my position, but I would say that 99% of all “accidental/negligent” discharges result from fingers on the trigger.
The OP’s sited situation was slung, loaded, cocked and safety on. I’d say that scenario was a poor choice both upon the injured and for illustration.

None the less, if you’re slinging it, why have one up the spout? You’d be doing the hunters Macarana to get into a shooting situation anyways, so what’s the bit extra movement of cycling the action gonna matter?
__________________


There are no absolutes

Last edited by Dick284; 04-14-2018 at 09:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:22 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 260 Rem View Post
Don’t know if there are any stats to back up my position, but I would say that 99% of all “accidental/negligent” discharges result from fingers on the trigger.
I watched a friend fire his rifle on a pronghorn hunt without realizing that his finger was on the trigger. He put out the bipod, lay prone, and as he closed the bolt, his finger slapped the trigger. It was a 700 Remington, and he blamed it on the trigger, until I told him what had happened. The rifle was pointed toward the pronghorn, so no harm done, the than the pronghorn deciding to leave the area.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 04-14-2018, 09:25 AM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I watched a friend fire his rifle on a pronghorn hunt without realizing that his finger was on the trigger. He put out the bipod, lay prone, and as he closed the bolt, his finger slapped the trigger. It was a 700 Remington, and he blamed it on the trigger, until I told him what had happened. The rifle was pointed toward the pronghorn, so no harm done, the than the pronghorn deciding to leave the area.
Classic lack of discipline on the shooters part, this putting your finger on the trigger every time you shoulder a firearm is an attribute derived from lack of really not practicing enough, IMO.
__________________


There are no absolutes
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:25 AM
tool tool is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,227
Default

How on earth do you hit the trigger while closing the bolt?

Obviously the bolt was closed if the rifle fired.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 04-14-2018, 10:57 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,842
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tool View Post
How on earth do you hit the trigger while closing the bolt?

Obviously the bolt was closed if the rifle fired.
You push the bolt forward with the palm of your hand, and your fingers are extended and strike the trigger as you push the bolt handle down and grip the stock. Not everyone holds the bolt handle between their fingers and thumb as they cycle a bolt action.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 04-14-2018, 11:16 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
The OP’s sited situation was slung, loaded, cocked and safety on. I’d say that scenario was a poor choice both upon the injured and for illustration.

None the less, if you’re slinging it, why have one up the spout? You’d be doing the hunters Macarana to get into a shooting situation anyways, so what’s the bit extra movement of cycling the action gonna matter?
Exactly.

Macarena might need a demo....
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 04-14-2018, 11:20 AM
58thecat's Avatar
58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 24,502
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
You push the bolt forward with the palm of your hand, and your fingers are extended and strike the trigger as you push the bolt handle down and grip the stock. Not everyone holds the bolt handle between their fingers and thumb as they cycle a bolt action.
Or as I am a lefty shooting a right handed rifle....buddy did this mule deer hunting, hit the turf, left hand on the rifle, finger on the trigger, cycled the bolt with his right hand,round in, boom....I was behind him and reminded him of a complete miss...still do.

I think he pooped a bit too.....
__________________

Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 04-14-2018, 12:16 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is online now
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YYC338 View Post
Except when you think there isn't and there is! Happens all the time. "i thought the gun was empty", not uncommon to hear in an accidental shooting
This happens all the time?
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”

-Billy Molls
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:04 PM
Yycadm Yycadm is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 223
Default

This is one of those very polarizing topics where its about an even split of loaded/unloaded, and both sides firmly entrenched in doing things their way. Personally, much of my time with a gun in the field, the gun is a lever gun. Rifle, a round in the tube & hammer at half cock is my preference. With a shotgun, it's often a lever gun too, but no exposed hammer, so usually no round in the tube
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 04-14-2018, 08:46 PM
6.5swedeforelk 6.5swedeforelk is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: N. Canada
Posts: 724
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhogger View Post
In the interest of transparency, I don't hunt big game...

...4. Taking a shot while hunting, clearly making a solid hit, then instinctually...clearing the empty, chambering another (for what?) and engaging the safety...

It's not necessary for you to state that you do not hunt big game.

No seasoned elk, moose, or bear hunter would agree with
unloading your gun just because you made a hit .

I recall in my first posting to the net where a guy dropped a bull,
unloaded, and was hi-fiving his buddies.
The elk got up, staggered away, and was not found.

Last edited by 6.5swedeforelk; 04-14-2018 at 08:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.