$$$ whitetail allocations $$$

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Alberta is the single greatest province/state in all of North America for resident hunting opportunities.

Name one better, and I'll never comment on this forum again.

Stop bitching about what you don't have, and be happy you have more then anybody else !!!

Jealousy is a wicked disease and it will consume you.

Tork, I don't want you to stop commenting but nearby BC has far more hunting oppurtunities for resident hunters then AB does. I don't know what it's like in other province's or states.
And before some people start nit-picking about BC's draw system, or their game quota or other reg details, I'm not saying that everything about hunting in BC is better Then AB, but BC residents definently have much hunting oppurtunities then residents in AB.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Tork, I don't want you to stop commenting but nearby BC has far more hunting oppurtunities for resident hunters then AB does. I don't know what it's like in other province's or states.
And before some people start nit-picking about BC's draw system, or their game quota or other reg details, I'm not saying that everything about hunting in BC is better Then AB, but BC residents definently have much hunting oppurtunities then residents in AB.

There draw system puts them behind us. A lottery draw for all moose that aren't way north where you have no clue whether you will get a tag or not.

Their bighorn opportunities aren't even remotely close to what we have

They don't have antelope

Their Whitetail and Mule deer opportunities are about 10-15% of what we have here

They definitely have a few species we don't, but for availability we have the best system there is. And our priority draw is the envy of everybody, we know almost exactly when we are going to hunt and can plan out multiple years in advance

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There draw system puts them behind us. A lottery draw for all moose that aren't way north where you have no clue whether you will get a tag or not.

Their bighorn opportunities aren't even remotely close to what we have

They don't have antelope

Their Whitetail and Mule deer opportunities are about 10-15% of what we have here

They definitely have a few species we don't, but for availability we have the best system there is. And our priority draw is the envy of everybody, we know almost exactly when we are going to hunt and can plan out multiple years in advance

You have mentioned pronghorn rwice as a species that you can't hunt in other locations, but with tags as limited as they are, and the number of people applying, a person that has not been entering, and that has no priority, may never draw a tag in their lifetime. If you started from scratch now, and the herd remained stable, a 20 year wait is likely a reasonable expectation, but one or two bad years like we had several years ago, could easily extend that to 40 or 50 years. The reality is, that with no priority now, you will likely never draw a pronghorn tag in Alberta. We have already lost the grizzly hunt, and other than a few lucky lottery winners, the goat hunt, and pronghorn will likely soon be another species that most people will never have the opportunity to hunt in Alberta. And as more and more opportunity is lost, the government should be making sure that the resident hunters at least get to enjoy the opportunities that remain. In that regard, Saskatchewan is doing a far better job than Alberta is.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

There draw system puts them behind us. A lottery draw for all moose that aren't way north where you have no clue whether you will get a tag or not.

Their bighorn opportunities aren't even remotely close to what we have

They don't have antelope

Their Whitetail and Mule deer opportunities are about 10-15% of what we have here

They definitely have a few species we don't, but for availability we have the best system there is. And our priority draw is the envy of everybody, we know almost exactly when we are going to hunt and can plan out multiple years in advance

...There draw system is a lottery, but that doesn't put them behind us. There are plenty of general Moose oppurtunities where we have none.
... Bighorn? Plenty of Bighorn and Sheep in BC.
... No Antelope? Luckily a BC resident can apply for an antelope draw in AB just like we do. What about the species they can hunt that we can't like Turkey, Blacktail deer, Fallow deer, Bison, and Grizzley?
... The area's I am used to hunting Deer have much more Mule deer then in AB, and Whitetail are making a big comeback, Though I like AB better for Whitetail.
It seems that you are placing a lot of weight on the kind of "System" we have here in AB when I thought we were talking about hunting oppurtunities. I agree that we have a better draw system, but lets see what the NDP does with that soon, as long as a lot of other oppurtunities we now enjoy.
In AB most of the land is privately owned and permission can be hard to get. Even our crown land is leased and often you need permission. BC has crown land almost everywhere. BC also has much longer general seasons then AB does.
I would get my Brother who is a BC resident to add to this discussion, but he is out hunting Fallow and Blacktail deer along with Wolf and Cougar as I type this. Oh, did I forget to mention that you can hunt Deer in parts of BC year round?
I don't expect to change anyones mind on this subject, and I agree that we have a better draw system, but AB does not come close to BC when it comes to hunting oppurtunities for residents. Thats ok though, I often have people here in AB tell me the fishing is better here then in BC.

[IronNoggin]

Originally Posted by waterninja

... I would get my Brother who is a BC resident to add to this discussion, but he is out hunting Fallow and Blacktail deer along with Wolf and Cougar as I type this. Oh, did I forget to mention that you can hunt Deer in parts of BC year round?

If what you say is true, your "brother" is out Poaching. Plain and simple, the date you posted this, there are ZERO opportunities for Blacktail open anywhere in BC. Unless of course he is a member of the Privileged Canadian Society aka FN...

Wolf, yes, they're pretty well wide open anywhere any time these days. A bit of a last ditch effort to reduce their numbers before the eat every last caribou / moose / deer etc etc.

Cougars. Yup - as long as the region's quota has not been realized. That occurs in many areas rather quickly after the season opens in the late fall. Some of the Ladz here do know what they're doing.

Fallow deer? What a JOKE! Certainly open, as they never close. The only thing that is closed in their respect is EVERY SINGLE INCH OF GROUND THEY OCCUPY. Either Private, National Park, or Special Reg Closures. In reality, the only ones that can possibly get in on the open season are FN's.

You want to get into other species?
Moose perhaps? What moose? Their population has been spiraling downwards so fast that almost everywhere is now on the damn-near-impossible to get limited entry LOTTERY.

Whitetails? Another pretty good Joke as our "managers" have long since declared WAR on that species, allowing double doe tags (cross counter) in addition to buck tags for a considerable period now. Collecting anything that remotely resembles a Good buck is a hell of a LOT more challenging than the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Mulies? Sure there are some areas with good numbers, and even some fine Quality bucks. NOWHERE near what much of Alberta offers!

I've hunted both Provinces (as well as many other jurisdictions) for decades.
To suggest BC affords more opportunity is ludicrous, for it certainly does not. We happen to have among the most backwards "management" regime in North America, and our declining wildlife populations well show that. Coupled with the entirely inane Laughing-Stock LEH Lottery, and well... by now methinks you should get the point...

Both Provinces have issues to sort out regarding outfitting. Just be Damn Thankful your "management team" isn't handing up to FORTY PERCENT of the annual allowable harvest to your outfitters there as they do here.

I love the fact I can (and do) hunt both Provinces. Both afford differing opportunities. Each has something great to offer, but NEITHER is any better whatsoever for their Resident hunters IMHO.

Have a Great Day...
Nog

[Deer Hunter]

^^^
Also, while the govt is dealing with excessive outfitter allocations, they need to reduce/remove the "non resident Canadians" sitting in the draw system in our over gracious and abused hunter host program.

Hunt swaps need to be eliminated too.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

If what you say is true, your "brother" is out Poaching. Plain and simple, the date you posted this, there are ZERO opportunities for Blacktail open anywhere in BC. Unless of course he is a member of the Privileged Canadian Society aka FN...

Wolf, yes, they're pretty well wide open anywhere any time these days. A bit of a last ditch effort to reduce their numbers before the eat every last caribou / moose / deer etc etc.

Cougars. Yup - as long as the region's quota has not been realized. That occurs in many areas rather quickly after the season opens in the late fall. Some of the Ladz here do know what they're doing.

Fallow deer? What a JOKE! Certainly open, as they never close. The only thing that is closed in their respect is EVERY SINGLE INCH OF GROUND THEY OCCUPY. Either Private, National Park, or Special Reg Closures. In reality, the only ones that can possibly get in on the open season are FN's.

You want to get into other species?
Moose perhaps? What moose? Their population has been spiraling downwards so fast that almost everywhere is now on the damn-near-impossible to get limited entry LOTTERY.

Whitetails? Another pretty good Joke as our "managers" have long since declared WAR on that species, allowing double doe tags (cross counter) in addition to buck tags for a considerable period now. Collecting anything that remotely resembles a Good buck is a hell of a LOT more challenging than the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Mulies? Sure there are some areas with good numbers, and even some fine Quality bucks. NOWHERE near what much of Alberta offers!

I've hunted both Provinces (as well as many other jurisdictions) for decades.
To suggest BC affords more opportunity is ludicrous, for it certainly does not. We happen to have among the most backwards "management" regime in North America, and our declining wildlife populations well show that. Coupled with the entirely inane Laughing-Stock LEH Lottery, and well... by now methinks you should get the point...

Both Provinces have issues to sort out regarding outfitting. Just be Damn Thankful your "management team" isn't handing up to FORTY PERCENT of the annual allowable harvest to your outfitters there as they do here.

I love the fact I can (and do) hunt both Provinces. Both afford differing opportunities. Each has something great to offer, but NEITHER is any better whatsoever for their Resident hunters IMHO.

Have a Great Day...
Nog

Iron, you sound very bitter. I'll check with my brother tonight about the Blacktail, as I might have misunderstood. I don't hunt the Van. island or the other islands he's hunting. He is certainly not poaching. As for the rest of your rant, well what can I say? I guess if I lived in BC then perhaps I'd see your point, but from personal experiance BC has better hunting then AB for pretty well everything except Whitetail. I know I'm looking foreward to hunting Turkey this spring in BC, which is something I could never do here in AB. Also, for the last few years I have seen much more game in BC, and had more space to hunt them, then I could in AB, except for Whitetail, maybe.
Seems like a lot of people hate where they live, as far as hunting goes.

[IronNoggin]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Iron, you sound very bitter. ... I guess if I lived in BC then perhaps I'd see your point, but from personal experience BC has better hunting then AB for pretty well everything except Whitetail.

Being on the front lines tends to bring out the bitterness from time to time.
We are working towards bringing our government into reality, but it is a damn tough row to hoe. Our current version has literally sold us out (resident hunters) on numerous occasions, while strip-mining the funds that should be dedicated for wildlife resources into their own pockets. Couple that with reducing our wildlife ministries by 56% while everything else sees increases, and it ain't hard to see how many get "bitter" as you put it.

There is a move afoot for change. Always room for hope. And I am once again in the process of banging my head repeatedly against that wall.

Did not mean to come across so gruff. But what I noted above is quite true, and that at times brings that out in me. Apologies if I offended.

I've found the direct opposite of you for many species. Elk, Mulies, Whitetails, Pheasants and more have all treated me better on your side of the line than here.

Good Luck with the Turkeys. We see lots in the areas you will be hunting during our late archery deer hunts. Never hunted them here. Perhaps one day...

Cheers,
Nog

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by IronNoggin

Being on the front lines tends to bring out the bitterness from time to time.
We are working towards bringing our government into reality, but it is a damn tough row to hoe. Our current version has literally sold us out (resident hunters) on numerous occasions, while strip-mining the funds that should be dedicated for wildlife resources into their own pockets. Couple that with reducing our wildlife ministries by 56% while everything else sees increases, and it ain't hard to see how many get "bitter" as you put it.

There is a move afoot for change. Always room for hope. And I am once again in the process of banging my head repeatedly against that wall.

Did not mean to come across so gruff. But what I noted above is quite true, and that at times brings that out in me. Apologies if I offended.

I've found the direct opposite of you for many species. Elk, Mulies, Whitetails, Pheasants and more have all treated me better on your side of the line than here.

Good Luck with the Turkeys. We see lots in the areas you will be hunting during our late archery deer hunts. Never hunted them here. Perhaps one day...

Cheers,
Nog

Actually, a person doesn't always get it right on every post. Instead of bitter, i could have used the word Frustrated.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If we have game to spare of certain species, I have no issues with nonresidents coming here.

It's when our numbers are down and wait times are long for residents and resident youth that it's a tough pill to swallow.

Saskatchewan has a couple things right IMHO.

LC

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Exactly, if we have a general season with unlimited tags, I have no problem with non residents hunting big game here. But when a resident has to wait several years to draw a tag in a given wmu, then there should be no non residents hunting that species in that wmu. And you are correct, in that Saskatchewan does a better job at looking after the resident hunters.

Originally Posted by chuck

Outfitter allocations have been a very high contributor to lack of hunting opportunity for me where I hunt.

The big game species we have in Alberta has absolutely nothing to do with outfitter allocations.

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries that currently offer hunting safaris; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

Your right, I don't get your argument. What the heck does it matter what they are doing in a third world country? We are talking about the situation that we have here in AB. Please stop clouding the issue with ridiculous comparisons that have absouloutly no bearing to this discussion. I'm surprised you haven't brought up the famine in Somalia, or the drug cartells in Mexico. Let's try to stay on point.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You guys don't get it- so long as there is a remote chance that an Alberta resident can get a tag to hunt a game animal, we should be happy with the system. If you want more opportunities to hunt said game animal in Alberta...well then, you can always book and pay for, a guided hunt on one of the outfitters allocated tags.
Really not much different than the rules that apply to the residents in many third world countries; and it's going to get worse as the human population increases.

Any statements regarding the total number of species available to hunt in Alberta is simply misdirection that is meant to diffuse the issue.

You might want to do some more research before telling Alberta residents to book a hunt with an outfitter, using an outfitter allocation. How about you pick up the phone, call up an outfitter, and try and book a hunt using one of his outfitter allocations. Then post and let us know how you made out.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You might want to do some more research before telling Alberta residents to book a hunt with an outfitter, using an outfitter allocation. How about you pick up the phone, call up an outfitter, and try and book a hunt using one of his outfitter allocations. Then post and let us know how you made out.

[admin]

The thread is cleaned up
no more mud slinging, keep it on track please.

[DiabeticKripple]

Thanks admin. Hate to see a thread like this go down the tubes when one guy takes it too far and the rest have to suffer.

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.

[Torkdiesel]

Thanks mods. We appreciate it

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.

I agree some things should be changed for sure. Nobody wants the bad apples out there, including us Outfitters

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

Thanks admin. Hate to see a thread like this go down the tubes when one guy takes it too far and the rest have to suffer.

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.

Great job by the admin, as the discussion has been good. I have written several letters to both the previous and present government regimes concerning both the allocation system, and the fact that convicted outfitters do not have their allocations revoked, and are still allowed to outfit. In every instance , the response has been the same, that been that the government will not involve themselves in these matters, they leave all disciplinary actions to APOS. But given that even the APOS president has been convicted of offences; why would anyone expect APOS to discopline it's members for being convicted of violations? And why would the members vote to allow a convicted offender to represebt their association?

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Great job by the admin, as the discussion has been good. I have written several letters to both the previous and present government regimes concerning both the allocation system, and the fact that convicted outfitters do not have their allocations revoked, and are still allowed to outfit. In every instance , the response has been the same, that been that the government will not involve themselves in these matters, they leave all disciplinary actions to APOS. But given that even the APOS president has been convicted of offences; why would anyone expect APOS to discopline it's members for being convicted of violations?

It's about as corrupt as it can get

[sns2]

Lots of this stuff is unfortunate really.

[nube]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Great job by the admin, as the discussion has been good. I have written several letters to both the previous and present government regimes concerning both the allocation system, and the fact that convicted outfitters do not have their allocations revoked, and are still allowed to outfit. In every instance , the response has been the same, that been that the government will not involve themselves in these matters, they leave all disciplinary actions to APOS. But given that even the APOS president has been convicted of offences; why would anyone expect APOS to discopline it's members for being convicted of violations? And why would the members vote to allow a convicted offender to represebt their association?

A lot of times these outfitters that are convicted do not hold title to the Allocations Elk11. How does APOS go about stripping Allocations from members that are not convicted of anything.
Take good old Loyd for instance. I don't think that guy has his name on any of his Allocations yet its his business.
Said this many times before it isn't as easy as you would think. It's a lot of legality issues which APOS can't afford to fight for "doing the right thing".

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by nube

A lot of times these outfitters that are convicted do not hold title to the Allocations Elk11. How does APOS go about stripping Allocations from members that are not convicted of anything.
Take good old Loyd for instance. I don't think that guy has his name on any of his Allocations yet its his business.
Said this many times before it isn't as easy as you would think. It's a lot of legality issues which APOS can't afford to fight for "doing the right thing".

A person requires a guide outfitter permit to operate as an outfitter in Alberta. Right on the APOS site it states that APOS can suspend or revoke a person's guide outfitter permit. Yet APOS does not do that, in fact Lloyd is still a member of APOS and is still listed as a guide outfitter. When one of the most convicted poachers in Alberta history is still allowed to be a member of APOS, and to hold a guide outfitter permit, it says a great deal about APOS as an organization.

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by nube

A lot of times these outfitters that are convicted do not hold title to the Allocations Elk11. How does APOS go about stripping Allocations from members that are not convicted of anything.
Take good old Loyd for instance. I don't think that guy has his name on any of his Allocations yet its his business.
Said this many times before it isn't as easy as you would think. It's a lot of legality issues which APOS can't afford to fight for "doing the right thing".

There are three or four Outfitters that have been convicted have transferred the titles into family members names and are still more or less running the business unfortunately I've worked for a few of them. It must be pretty easy to do

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[walking buffalo]

I earlier mentioned Walmart's interest in a volume purchase of Allocations earlier.
While in jest, there is a serious reason for the comment. a concern that has not been discussed in this thread.

The basic tenant of our Wildlife Management model is that Wildlife is "Owned by the Public, held and managed in trust by the Crown for the Public.



APOS and several Outfitters have been pushing for the legal determination that allocations are Real Property, meaning that the holder of the allocation would Own the resource described.
APOS's position on Real Property Allocations if realized would effectively dismantle the core pillar of our Wildlife Model.



Where does Walmart come into play?

If Allocations are determined to be Real Property, multi-national corporations will be quick to gain control of the resource.

A couple of years ago after an Alberta Inheritance civil suit including assets of Big game Allocations was judged, F&W received an influx of international inquiries as to the purchase of Allocations based on them being Real Property. These people were researching investments in "owning" our wildlife!

As a worst case scenario IF Allocations become "real property". Would anyone believe that Monsanto or Nestle wouldn't be interested in owning this resource?

Or how about the The Alberta Elk Commission (AEC) , Alberta White-tail & Mule Deer Association? A few years ago the Game farmers tried to get a clause added to the Livestock diversity act allowing for "escaped" elk and deer AND ALL THEIR OFFSPRING to be considered legally allowable and remain in the ownership of the company. This was an attempt to allow unfenced game farming! The Game Farming industry would be pleased with the option to own wild herds. One of the first Alberta models/studies in game farming was based on free ranging stock. Allowing Ownership of Wildlife allocations could make this model a reality.


The Outfitter big game allocation system is leading to the privatization of our wildlife.
In order to protect Wildlife as a Public resource while maintaining public hunting as a allowable management action, Allocations must be eliminated.

[Deer Hunter]

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=137715

So they are trying to make this legal, without the lawsuits and judgments against the outfitter of course.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/20...unting-permits

Whether legal or not, it is happening already without any repercussions from the crown

[nube]

Originally Posted by admin

The thread is cleaned up
no more mud slinging, keep it on track please.

Good call!