copper fouling on tikka stainless

[RUSTY262]

I'm ready to throw away my tikka stainless laminate 243 because i can't hold an 8" group at 100 yards but since i'm stubborn i need to figure it out. I've checked everything including having taken it to a gunsmith and several gun shops. changed bases, rings, scopes, ammo, shooter, rest, and nothing. Last night i read about copper fouling and put some wipeout in the bore overnight. This morning the patch was navy blue. Would this cause that much inaccuracy? Any advice or thoughts would be much appreciated. The rifle has some sentimental value as it was my first. The first three years i could hold 2inch groups at 200 yards off a bipod.

If it hasn't been cleaned in all that time, sure, that could be the problem. You figure that's the first question a gunsmith would have asked on a rifle that used to shoot and doesn't any more. Give it a good cleaning and go shoot it.

[RUSTY262]

i've spent 2 days working on it with cleaner and brushes but I don't think it was very effective by the looks of the patch that came out.

[RUSTY262]

around the same time that my accuracy went to s**t i also noticed an increase in percussion. would the fouling increase that.

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

Keep on cleaning the barrel till the patches are clean. This may take awhile by the sounds of it. Get a good bore cleaner / copper remover and let soak longer.

[Dick284]

Percussion??????

Can you elaborate........

And yes a brush and a lot of solvents especially stuff like Hoppes #9 and nitro solvents will not touch copper.

If it does'nt claim to be a copper solvent it is'nt, 9 times out of 10.


To me it sounds like you've got something bigger than a copper issue...but start with the easy fixes first then move to the more difficult ones.

Step by step trouble shooting.

Let us know how this progresses.

[gitrdun]

I recently had a gun brought to me that used to group nicely and no longer did. A throrough and extensive cleaning brought it back to its former self.

Wipeout is a very good product and I use it for most of my cleaning. If you suspect copper fouling, I would suggest something more agressive towards copper, such as Barnes CR10 or Montana Extreme. These products contain ammonia which is what adresses the copper fouling, but a word of caution as you'll see in the labels, DO NOT use brass brushes as ammonia will attack the brush and you'll never accomplish anything. Another caution with these products, don't sniff the bottle out of curiosity, your head will explode, and make sure you use it in a well ventilated area.

Another thing that I would check is your barrel crown. Make sure that it is not damaged, a small dent will throw your rounds all over the map.

Good luck!

edit: wow, 3 posts while I took 3 minutes to type the above, awesome.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

I've checked everything including having taken it to a gunsmith and several gun shops. changed bases, rings, scopes, ammo, shooter, rest, and nothing.

has anyone had the stock off? those tikka have a funny recoil lug...ive seen guys with their action screws only have way in because of that bugger.

just something to look at.

tough to imagine a gunsmith not being able to find something wrong with a previous MOA shooter turning into a turd.

[RUSTY262]

crown is in perfect condition. first used hoppes 9 with brass brush- big mistake. seems like wipeout took a lot out last night. When was reffering to percussion, I was meaning the bang it makes sounded more like a .308 than a 243. would fouling increase pressure in the barrel?

[RUSTY262]

also stock has been off several times and action screws are properly seated

[RUSTY262]

will wipeout take care of all fouling or should i use something else for the copper?

[gitrdun]

Wipeout takes care of my minor copper fouling, but I don't shoot monometal bullets such as TSX's and I don't let things go out of hand before cleaning. If you suspect copper, then I would personally address it with a high ammonia product, CR10, Montana Extreme.

Btw! how are your groups stringing, vertical, horizontal, or shotgun pattern?

[vinegar]

Originally Posted by RUSTY262

crown is in perfect condition. first used hoppes 9 with brass brush- big mistake. seems like wipeout took a lot out last night. When was reffering to percussion, I was meaning the bang it makes sounded more like a .308 than a 243. would fouling increase pressure in the barrel?

Why is hoppes #9 with brass brush bad?

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by vinegar

Why is hoppes #9 with brass brush bad?

Becasue it only reduces powder and carbon fouling.

Copper is what this guy trying to deal with...unfortunatly Hoppes does not cut it in this department.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by vinegar

Why is hoppes #9 with brass brush bad?

I'm thinking that most of us frequent shooters and bore cleaners would stay away from those brass brushes no matter what we clean our barrels with. Especially any bore cleaners that contain ammonia. I have brass brushes, and I only use them to clean the i nside of the neck on my brass when I'm either too lazy to tumble my brass or load development doesn't allow the time. Brass brushes in my rifle bores....NEVER GONNA HAPPEN?

[Redneck Renagade]

What about Birchwood Casey bore scrubber

[Johnny7604]

Use KG-12. Works better than anything I have ever used for removing copper. If it doesn't work I'll eat Catnthehat's Hat.

Keep in mind it isn't ammonia based so it doesn't turn patches blue, you'll have to use a flashlight and check the bore to guage when it's done. I usually give it a couple more for good measure once I can't see any more copper.

http://www.burkesgunoil.com/shoponline.htm

Disclaimer: I don't work for the place in the link or have any affiliations with them whatsoever other than that where I order my KG-12 from.

Cheers


-John

[gitrdun]

^^^ I've looked down many bores and can honestly say that I haven't personally identified copper fouling bad enough to see with a flashlight. I have however cleaned out many bores that were suspect and brougth them back to standard using amonia bearing solvents that turned the patches blue. My feeling is that if you can literally see it with a flashlight, shooting....no spraying patterns would be your initial indicator.

On another side note, this KG stuff claims to not contain ammonia, neither does Wipeout. We all know how effectively amonia attacks copper, but hey, I'll give anything a try at least once. We all know how copper fouling will deteriorate accuracy in a jiffy.

[elkhunter11]

I've looked down many bores and can honestly say that I haven't personally identified copper fouling bad enough to see with a flashlight. I have however cleaned out many bores that were suspect and brougth them back to standard using amonia bearing solvents that turned the patches blue. My feeling is that if you can literally see it with a flashlight, shooting....no spraying patterns would be your initial indicator.

I have seen cooper streaks in many barrels once the powder fouling is removed. Sometimes it greatly effects accuracy, sometimes it doesn't.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have seen cooper streaks in many barrels once the powder fouling is removed. Sometimes it greatly effects accuracy, sometimes it doesn't.

Yeah, well I had a blond moment and forgot about you elk So, if you saw copper streaks, I'm assuming that it would be safe to say that the copper wasn't completely and throughly removed. It does affect accuracy, just depends on one's definition of "greatly".

[elkhunter11]

Yeah, well I had a blond moment and forgot about you elk So, if you saw copper streaks, I'm assuming that it would be safe to say that the copper wasn't completely and throughly removed. It does affect accuracy, just depends on one's definition of "greatly".

Traces of copper can appear after only a couple of shots in some barrels, in other barrels, you may not see any after a dozen shots or more. I have seen traces of copper when cleaning a barrel immediately after shooting sub 3/8 moa five shoot groups, so in those cases, it obviously wasn't much of a factor. In some cases(not my rifles), the fouling was so extreme that groups shrank from over 2 moa to less than moa after the copper was removed.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

On another side note, this KG stuff claims to not contain ammonia, neither does Wipeout.

wipe out sure smells like ammonia when you use it.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

wipe out sure smells like ammonia when you use it.

It sure doesn't.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by chuck

It sure doesn't.

ive got about 20 soiled patches in a garbage bag right now that say(smell) otherwise.

its not a strong odor like other solvents...but its there.

check again.

[Johnny7604]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

^^^ I've looked down many bores and can honestly say that I haven't personally identified copper fouling bad enough to see with a flashlight. I have however cleaned out many bores that were suspect and brougth them back to standard using amonia bearing solvents that turned the patches blue. My feeling is that if you can literally see it with a flashlight, shooting....no spraying patterns would be your initial indicator.

On another side note, this KG stuff claims to not contain ammonia, neither does Wipeout. We all know how effectively amonia attacks copper, but hey, I'll give anything a try at least once. We all know how copper fouling will deteriorate accuracy in a jiffy.

Sometimes it can be difficult to see the copper. I usually run a patch or two of Butches down the tube first. That gets rid of the powder residue on top and shines the copper up real nice. If you can't see any after that it's probably not there. I have not seen any deterioration in accuracy with a little copper fouling. In fact after cleaning to bare metal it usually takes a few shots for everything to tighten back up again.

Alot of copper is a different story.

The only reason I mentioned the KG-12 is that it stright up works. For some reason it hasn't gained much ground up here but I can guarantee you it has outperformed every other cleaner I have ever used with the exception of Coppermelt (don't think it exists anymore).

If you don't believe me fine, I'll be happy to prove it to anyone in my area. If you want to order a bottle and it doesn't work I'll buy it off you, that's how confident I am.

Not trying to start any arguments, just trying to help save people money in patches and a little elbow grease.

Cheers,