Seyfried article

[Stinky Coyote]

if i was going to do the reticle thing i would look hard at zeiss rapid z system, only questions i have for dealing with different elevations and i think i answered my own question but hopefully you can correct me SH?.....i know this is getting near the extreme end of where my bullet starts to run below the minimum impact velocity recommended by manufacturer but at 800 yrds, if i did all my range work/set up around calgary at say 3500' elevation....and i was at 7000' elevation.....i would be out 1 moa(4 clicks)...this would be 8" high(1 click is 2" at 800 yrds)...so i might spine my ram and be ok, or just shoot over him....hypothetical situation of course....

the reason i run my dial up knob at 5000' is so that worst case i'm only out 4" at 800 yrds if i forget (heat of the moment) to do the mental calcl. of what elevation i'm at and still be in kill zone territory...i like to think that if conditions were right and i really did have an 800 yrd shot i would remember where i was and make the 1 click per 1000' elevation i might be off of my 5000' setting but if i forget i should still make out ok

so when you set up rapid z....do you do a similar thing and put in the data for elevation collected etc. and then do you use that to correct the magnification of your scope to adopt a more middle ground elevation? or do you collect drop data already in the middle (near 5000') anyhow? or do you keep some data on the rifle of what magnification to hunt for every couple thousand feet elevation difference?

i know this is extreme end of .270 wsm performance capability on big game and likely we'll neither need to shoot that far on game but its nice to practice further and see what really happens....no surprises for me yet to 800 so i'm now keeping this data also with my rig so i can actually see if a 950 yrd coyote might be a possibility if conditions were right...i will learn on rocks across the valley first and i already know that 850 yrds and beyond i need to factor 1.5 clicks per 1000' elevation difference from my 5000' baseline...keep in mind i run a kenton speed dial knob in yards to match and i dial up to 1 click less than 825 yrds in a full rotation....for over 800 i will just have to 'count' clicks to play practice out there...should have plenty of time for counting if target that far away

5000', 0 C, 270wsm 140 AB, 3160 fps
Yrds Clicks Past Zero 10mph Wnd
825 1
850 5
875 9
900 12
925 16
950 21
975 25
1000 29

note; my copy paste of excel didn't show up right...so i deleted with wind info just to show clicks past zero as it looked pretty muddled when i hit the submit button...1000 yrd 10mph wind was 6' 2" btw


So at 700 yrds your probably only out 1 click per 1000' elevation, ie; 209's 700 yrd lope and that equals only 1.5" off so well inside kill zone....reality is it seems as long as the rapid z is set up middlish of expected elevation ranges the 700 yrd wouldn't really need any extra correction but 800 yrd and if set up at one end of the elevation scale could be a miss....and also i make the same corrections for cold cold...warmer doesn't seem to make near the difference at the far end of range as going 10 or 20 below zero...so its sort of the same for me, mental calc. of 1 click per every 10 below zero over 700 yrds etc. so hypothetical on high elevation late season sheep hunt you could go 2 clicks less because of 2000' higher elevation but throw them right back on if 20 below zero....so high elevation super cold negate any change

Just curious if any of this stuff taken into account with rapid z or stick to 700 yrd or less shooting for most part?

[elkhunter11]

Shooting at the range is one thing when the winds and angles are known, thats fine but often times the ballistic tables and multiplex scope reticles go out the window in hunting situations where there could be a 10 mph wind in one direction where your at and a 30 mph wind in the opposite direction where the target/animal is, add in 38 degrees of angle angle down a hill across a valley 631 yds away. Are you sure you can do that without windflags, wind meters at those varoius distances without the ballistics laptop out on the mountain? I've seen so many guys proud of their abilities at the range wonder why they missed one of those shots they claim are easy. We all have watched the videos of someone shooting an animal 500-1000 yds away, looks easy and it can be if conditions are right, they neglect to show you the footage of all the critters they miss in the videos. All I wish is for people to shoot within their known abilities whether it's 50 yds or 1000yds, many don't. The more you shoot long range, the more you begin to realize how unpredictable it can be.

Well said!Unfortunately most hunting shows only show the good hits,and the misses are edited out.Unfortunately, consistently making long range kills under hunting conditions isn't always as easy as it looks on television.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Well said!Unfortunately most hunting shows only show the good hits,and the misses are edited out.Unfortunately, consistently making long range kills under hunting conditions isn't always as easy as it looks on television.

Can't comment on other shows but I do know the info you quoted is all part of the 10-minute instruction....still 9 minutes left

Obviously technology doesn't trump physics like those imparted by wind or angle and I'm not so sure why you are so deperate and keep bringing them up...no one is arguing with you. Technology or old school...physics is the same and should be treated with the same respect. All I've said from the onset is that most people are far better shots than they think they are and you put some technology in their hands and give them some instruction and under appropriate long-range shooting conditions, they can routinely hit a target at 500 yards...whether that be metal groundhog or live mule deer. All of what you are arguing applies to old school seasoned vetran or technology equipped newbie. Truthfully, it's often easier to stress the limitations of long range shooting to a newbie than it is a seasoned cocky shooter.

[elkhunter11]

Truthfully, it's often easier to stress the limitations of long range shooting to a newbie than it is a seasoned cocky shooter.

And with most very seasoned shooters,you don't have to stress the limitations of long range shooting,these shooters are usually already well aware of those limitations.And most very seasoned shooters that I know,are certainly not what I would classify as cocky.
On the other hand,I am constantly observing fairly inexperienced shooters at the local range show up with a new magnum rifle,with a high magnification scope(usually mil dots or Leupold B&C reticle) thinking that their new gear somehow transforms them into a long range shooter.These tend to be the cocky shooters.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

And with most very seasoned shooters,you don't have to stress the limitations of long range shooting,these shooters are usually already well aware of those limitations.And most very seasoned shooters that I know,are certainly not what I would classify as cocky.
On the other hand,I am constantly observing fairly inexperienced shooters at the local range show up with a new magnum rifle,with a high magnification scope(usually mil dots or Leupold B&C reticle) thinking that their new gear somehow transforms them into a long range shooter.These tend to be the cocky shooters.

I agree with your second point but not so much with your first but regardless....I was talking about neither group. I was talking about the group that is willing to listen for 10 minutes... I've seen plenty of guys with a single reticle shooting a non magnum taking shots way outside the bounds of what I consider ethical too. I'd venture to say that the guy that buys the technology likely has the desire to learn to use it.....those that don't may or may not shoot within their limitations but many don't. Technology is hardly the begining of guys shooting beyond their capabilities. I still say I've seen more of the "I don't use technology" cocky shooters but again, that's just a personal observation. I appreciate that your mileage may vary. Regardless, I still go back to my original point...most people are far better shooters than they think when the right technology is put in their hands and they receive some instruction on using it. The simpler the technology, the less instruction required... The Rapid Z is about as simple as the ballistic reticle gets. Same for the Huskimaw turrets.

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Just curious if any of this stuff taken into account with rapid z or stick to 700 yrd or less shooting for most part?

Yes and no. Those are definitely some extreme ranges you are talking about and it is critical to bear in mind the difference that elevation, temp and a host of other variables can make. At 500 yards, none of them would cross my mind but at longer ranges I would adjust where I hold the crosshairs accordingly. But that falls outside the scope of the 10 minute 500 yard course...

You bring up some great points about extreme range shooting and how critical it is to be familiar with the characteristics of your particular catridge. When I went Dall sheep hunting I set my scope for the elevation we'd likely be hunting and ajusted my zero when we got there and then truthed it at long range. It required a total of three shots.

One other thing to bear in mind is that your 100 yard zero changes accordingly with the elevation change. As the Rapid Z is based on multiple reticles and not clicks of a turret, there is a corresponding change in all of your reticles POI. I was shocked how little of a role elevation played.

[209x50]

SC, there is no allowances made for spin drift or the Coriolis Effect at those ranges either and both can influence the POI greatly at 1000 yards.

[lannie]

I thought the elevation was no more important than the air temperature.
2000 asl could have the same poi as 8000 asl with different temps.
Density altitude is the term. Same reason as a pilot can take off from a high elevation airstrip in the early morning but can not get the wheels off the ground in the heat of mid afternoon. It is one of the most important, if not the most important setting's in an aircraft. Getting local atmospheric pressure for area in which to land or sitting on a "known elevation" and adjusting altimeter before taking off. Resulting in correct 'density altitude".

[elkhunter11]

I've seen plenty of guys with a single reticle shooting a non magnum taking shots way outside the bounds of what I consider ethical too.

I have seen the same,there are slob hunters using every kind of equipment.

I'd venture to say that the guy that buys the technology likely has the desire to learn to use it...

And some of those guys feel that if they buy the right equipment,they no longer need to practice.It can work either way.

I was talking about the group that is willing to listen for 10 minutes.

Of course that also depends on who is doing the talking.From what I have seen,other shooters are most likely anxious to listen to the shooters that they see demonstrate the greatest shooting skills.We have many people at the range using high tech equipment that really don't shoot exceptionally,so other shooters don't normally ask them for help or advise.On the other hand,there are several regular shooters at our range that demonstrate well above average shooting skills,and they are often asked for help or advise.An average or slightly above average shooter that tries to give other shooters advice at our local range won't usually find many people willing to listen to him.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

An average or slightly above average shooter that tries to give other shooters advice at our local range won't usually find many people willing to listen to him.

LOL...somehow that doesn't surprise me.......

[whitetailhntr]

So TJ, when is the next 10 minute course?...i got 10 minutes i could spare to be a better shot.

Originally Posted by whitetailhntr

So TJ, when is the next 10 minute course?...i got 10 minutes i could spare to be a better shot.

LOL...definitely some tongue in cheek in my course comments...I really don't do courses but I have introduced a lot of shooters to the Rapid Z system at the range or in hunting camps and it always shocks me how well they can shoot. Not really so much about being a better shot but using the gear and your body properly. Most people are actually great shots...sometimes it just takes a small bit of instruction to bring it out.

Truthfully I'm a pretty average shooter that looks good occasionally thanks to technology. Nobody listens to me anyhow....

[elkhunter11]

LOL...somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Now if someone asks the average or slightly above average shooter for advice,that is an entirely different story,than that same average or slightly average shooter trying to give advice without being asked.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Now if someone asks the average or slightly above average shooter for advice,that is an entirely different story,than that same average or slightly average shooter trying to give advice without being asked.

As I said, it doesn't surprise me in the least......

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by lannie

I thought the elevation was no more important than the air temperature.
2000 asl could have the same poi as 8000 asl with different temps.
Density altitude is the term. Same reason as a pilot can take off from a high elevation airstrip in the early morning but can not get the wheels off the ground in the heat of mid afternoon. It is one of the most important, if not the most important setting's in an aircraft. Getting local atmospheric pressure for area in which to land or sitting on a "known elevation" and adjusting altimeter before taking off. Resulting in correct 'density altitude".

running the ballistic calculators i found that elevation was number one factor, temp number 2.....i'm no scientist but thats what i found running different factors, pressure in/hg nor humidity seemed to make an impact worth noting compared to temps running every 10 degrees below zero C or every 1000' elevation (i didn't notice as much variance in temps running above zero...took a lot more variance in temp to require a click)

you'll have to do your own experimentation on the calculators to see for yourself, guessing the plane needed extra hp from the a.m. cooler(which i understand to be more dense) air at high altitude?

[lannie]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

running the ballistic calculators i found that elevation was number one factor, temp number 2.....i'm no scientist but thats what i found running different factors, pressure in/hg nor humidity seemed to make an impact worth noting compared to temps running every 10 degrees below zero C or every 1000' elevation (i didn't notice as much variance in temps running above zero...took a lot more variance in temp to require a click)

you'll have to do your own experimentation on the calculators to see for yourself, guessing the plane needed extra hp from the a.m. cooler(which i understand to be more dense) air at high altitude?

I believe you. The usual is the air is less dense with altitude gain and denser as the temp drops. Best performance is cold air and low altitude.
I "think" that is the opposite in what is ideal for a bullet. Thin hot air is the flattest shooting due to the reduction in friction.

P.s. I will admit i am the average or slightly above shooter that can offer no
advice worth listening to on long range shooting. Very much enjoy reading and
learning though. Have never had a 1/2 inch all day long Day ! Come to think about it i have never seen one either, only read about them

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 209x50

SC, there is no allowances made for spin drift or the Coriolis Effect at those ranges either and both can influence the POI greatly at 1000 yards.

yeah, i'm curious as heck to see what some shots over 800 will be like, i don't even know what the twist is of my sako but i was pretty sure i'd have enough to stabalize out to 7-800, so i'm happy to see that seems to be true from my random shots to those ranges, will be looking for a rock sheep in the 850-950 yrd range this season to see if things start spinning off the map out there with the factory twist barrel or if they still shoot where they are supposed to go?...can't wait to find out

and i hear you lannie on the 1/2" all day....i generally don't comment on my own shooting like that but i know that when i do my part i can generally keep my groups to 3/4 moa very regular with this rifle and i have a sneaking suspicion my rifle can do better than me , the odd group i'm a little tighter, mind you only shot one group this year to see how its doing, 4 shots at 545 went about 3/4 moa (just over 4"), i tend to stop when i'm ahead so i'm just going to hunt now

[Stinky Coyote]

elkhunter11, i'm with TJ on this, have see couple guys not shooting long ringing the 500m gongs with mine and buddies and sometimes even their own tackle and small amount of coaching, the dry fire thing works great to get them breaking clean and work the flinch out lol...i like to pretend i loaded it first round or throw safety on and then have them move into the seat for the shot....we deal with the flinch right away then down to business with a dry fire or three and voila...shootin like average to above average in no time

one day i can remember that was funny was 3 of us took a turn on a buddies rigs and one has done very little shooting period, and we made a nice little sub-moa triangle on the 500m gongs no prob, and when i say having guys ringing the 500m gongs...pretty much up the middle just like me or my buddy...not just catching near the edge etc., it doesn't take long with capable gear and the right little tidbits of instruction...10 minutes would easily do the trick

[elkhunter11]

elkhunter11, i'm with TJ on this, have see couple guys not shooting long ringing the 500m gongs with mine and buddies and sometimes even their own tackle and small amount of coaching,

I never said that it couldn't be done,I can zero a rifle for a 500 yard target,hand it to someone,and they can hit a 500 yard gong with regularity off of a rest.Or if the scope has turrets,I can dial the turrets for them,or tell them exactly what to dial in,and they can do the same.That is pretty much what happens on Best Of The West.
However simply pointing a gun while rested,pulling the trigger,and hitting a gong at a given distance doesn't make a person a good shot.

If you take that same person in the woods or fields,and pick targets at unknown distances,in varying wind conditions,and in different temperatures,and let them adjust the scope or use whatever holdover and windage is required with no help,and they consistently hit the target from field positions,that would prove much more about their shooting ability.

[Stinky Coyote]

i agree that it would prove more about their ability and that would show they've done it before as that sort of independance only comes from a bit of practice but it can be coached really quick at the time and i believe 10 minutes is probably 5 too many

[Pathfinder76]

Back to the topic at hand, here is John Burns thoughts on the article.

"One thing to remember about Ross is he did not do a lot of elk hunting while he lived in Colorado.

I know he killed a bull while guiding Elmer Keith when he (Ross) was around 20. Elmer and he did a double on 6 point and a spike. Elmer shot the spike because he wanted the better meat.

Elmer was using his .338 KT which is the 338 Lapua before there was even the slightest inkling of the Lapua. He used the old 275gr Speer RN and that bullet broke up and didn’t exit the bull but killed it very well. Elmer told Ross that was his 50th bull and gave him the fired case.

Ross killed his bull with his .375 H&H. Don’t know what bullet.

The pair of bulls was around 500yds but this was long before lasers.

Ross killed a bull with his .416 Rigby and it stayed on its feet long enough for more than one shot. This was in the late 80s or early 90s.

Ross also hunted with his .33 G&A in Montana but didn’t get a chance to shoot a bull with that rifle. This was a Don Allen Dakota and the first time I saw it Ross was getting ready for this elk hunt. He had been working on the zero and I remember him firing 3 shots at 200yds and placing all his shots on a 2 inch dot from a cold bore. The load was 225gr X bullets or possibly 225 Failsafes at 3200fps.

He may have done more elk hunting but not that I know of until moving to Oregon.

In Oregon he now gets to see maybe a dozen elk killed per year and the reality of hard recoil and bad shots is sinking in. The more elk you see killed, generally the smaller gun you recommend for elk hunting, within reason. Something about living and learning.

The 33 G&A was the first designed and Ross used the case that Remington later turned into the 300 Ultra Mag. Remington then moved the shoulder back on the following 338 Ultra Mag reducing capacity somewhat to prevent 300ultras from being loaded in the 338 chambers.

There was no way Ross would design a 30 cartridge with more capacity than the 338. I suspect Ross never owned a 30 G&A or a 300 Ultra. I at least never saw one while at his place in Colorado.

The idea of using an improved .404 was pioneered by Jack Lott with the .460 G&A and Ross was probably the first to use the case with the smaller 338 and 30 cals. This in turn led to the use of that case shortened for the WSMs.

My recollection was that Ross may have drawn up shortened versions before Jamison did his little patent trick but never pursued them because of the lack of advantage of the short actions in the real world. IE who wants a short action.

All of the above is just my remembrance of a lot of conversations over the shooting bench and is subject to my interpretation.

In all likelihood Ross knows more about guns in general than anyone who ever lived. In some areas he is defiantly not the leading expert but the breadth of understanding will amaze you.

I can remember him spending a whole day or more just to load a few cartridges for one of his pinfires to use it to hunt the monster whitetails on the Platte River or letting me shoot at a mile with the 300-416 Rigby that Mel Forbes of Ultra Light built him.

If he comes across as a guy with a big ego just remember there is some basis and justification for the attitude.

As everyone who reads his stuff can tell he can talk the talk and I my experience he can also walk the walk."

John Burns
Greybull Precision LLC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's funny, I actually think with the proper equipment and a small amount of coaching, most people are far better shots than they think. You put the proper rig in their hands, spend a few minutes going over the basics and most people can hit a grounghod sillouette at 500 yards pretty consistently. I've found that while most people sneer at poor shots at the range, if you'd just take a few minutes with them, they'd be shooting like they never imagined they could. You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong, you'll never get it right. Take a few minutes to pass along some tips and most people are quite capable at 500 yards....with the right gear of course. At least that's been my experience.

Lol even if they took all the names off the top of the posts you could still tell he was a gun writer That being said I've often wished I could get some pointers on things like shooting and flyfishing. Sadly despite all the .5 moa groups and expert casters you hear about on the internet whenever I meet guys at the range or on the water they are usualy not much better than me.

I liked the article, you cant buy skill and standard callibers are likely to see more range time. Sure owning a standard calliber doesnt mean you are going to practice more but a guy who doesnt practice very much is also better off with lighter calliber.

[Traps]

Seyfried grew up and realized he doesn't need a chest pounding cartridge for the task at hand.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Traps

Seyfried grew up and realized he doesn't need a chest pounding cartridge for the task at hand.

Or he found these calibers to be more popular with his readers...

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Or he found these calibers to be more popular with his readers...

Seyfried isn't into popularity contests believe me.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by chuck

seyfried isn't into popularity contests believe me.

lol!

[Pathfinder76]

Laughing here as well.

I always find it amusing that when a writer writes an artcle that supports a particular point of view, he becomes the ultimate authority and when he doesn't, he's just an unscrupulous hack that's on the payroll of the manufacturers....that's what's got me laughing this morning....

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I always find it amusing that when a writer writes an artcle that supports a particular point of view, he becomes the ultimate authority and when he doesn't, he's just an unscrupulous hack that's on the payroll of the manufacturers....that's what's got me laughing this morning....

Well that and the level of delusion that some people function at....

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I always find it amusing that when a writer writes an artcle that supports a particular point of view, he becomes the ultimate authority and when he doesn't, he's just an unscrupulous hack that's on the payroll of the manufacturers....that's what's got me laughing this morning....

Sorry, I missed the "ultimate authority" part. Could you point that out? Thanks.