Seyfried article

[flint]

I'm sure that there is only a small group of hunters in North America who consistantly shoot year around like Chuck, Elkhunter11, 209x50 and myself. We do it not shoot to keep our shooting eye tuned-up but it is the exploration of a new cartridges and reloads. To shoot a standard cartridge is much more comfortable than shooting a big old magnum, like my son's 300 Weatherby. I had a Blaser S2 side by side double rifle chambered for a 9.3x74R and I sold it because it kicked the poop out of me. (not a practical gun compared to the bolt action), Anyway, I truley believe that a person can and will be a better shot with a standard cartridge than a magnum, if practiced. As for the innovated magnums that were conceived in the past 15 years, the firearm industry needed to simulate the market because gun sales were exhaused with the same old boring 300Winchester Magmun, 30-06 and 270. Hunters need to practice more often.....they will become a better shooter and hunter.

[Stinky Coyote]

i quite liked that article, thanks for the link

i had a .270 first but in my quest for higher efficiency of my rifle combination i ended up moving to a .270 wsm...first and foremost i studied factory ammo ballistics as thats what i wanted to shoot, next knowing that i wanted a kenton speed dial knob for fast(no calculations required) field come ups for longer range work and knowing that you only get 15 moa of come up in one revolution of a leupold 1/4 moa turret i wanted to be able to have enough energy/velocity left near the tail end of the distance i could dial up in one rotation from best pbrz....while i hit well at 700yrds with my .270, it was pretty low on energy/velocity....i gained over 20% more range and can maintain over the nosler's recommended 1800 fps to around 750 yrds and with my pbrz set i can dial up to a bit over 800 yrds in one rotation with the wsm version

so sometimes cartridge choice really comes down to what you want to be able to do out there....i can hit as hard at 800 with my .270 wsm as the .270 could at 650....and i only went for as much horsepower as it took to achieve what i wanted to achieve...i wanted to be efficient all the way around and didn't want to burn extra horsepower or deal with extra recoil....so i found the minimum i could find that could do the job, if i never planned or wanted to be ready for 'just in case' over 500 yrd work etc. then i'd just stick to .270

however, for any average rifle set up (no holdover/dial up set up in equation), i would definitely choose a standard just as the article alludes....i prefer to set my gear up to its potential, the leupy/cartridge combo i set up maximize and come out even enough for speed dial up to where bullet runs out of gas and of course the accuracy had to be there to start and my rifle is up to task and so far i've been also

so where i agree with writer in that standard cartridges for average hunting are the way to fly for most people....he did not mention anything about the benefits of magnums or where they make sense and to whom they make sense as they definitely have a place in the stuff we do!!!!!

good article, just not much devils advocate going on or giving full spectrum imo....appeals to the broadest scope of hunters/hunting situations very well though

[altaberg]

Originally Posted by robfraser

Great article. Could not agree more.

X2

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Of course the opinion of a personal hero would be much louder in your ears than in someone else's less infatuated ears. LOL!

I'm a little fuzzy on this comment.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by chuck

I'm a little fuzzy on this comment.

You think real hard and it will come to you.

[Scar270]

I don't understand why people would have a problem with this article?

I don't think he says the mags won't do the job, or that people can't shoot the magnums. On the whole I would agree with him that it's easier to shoot well with a lighter kicking gun. Generally speaking the big magnums are more expensive to shoot, and less pleasant, which tends to mean they are shot less by the average hunter.

I hear the argument lots that the ammo is so expensive they won't shoot it more then to maybe check the zero, I also see guy's who give me their magnums to sight in, and I can only suspect it's because they don't like shooting them, not that they will admit it.

I've killed lots of game with moderate cartridges, I now hunt with a .375 H&H, not because I need to, but because I want too. Just because I hunt with a magnum doesn't mean I think the article is wrong, in fact it's the advice I give to people who are starting out and don't know what to get, but hey, if the fastest or biggest magnums float your boat, I'm not one to suggest to anyone they don't buy another gun.

If you can and do take out your magnums to hunt gophers in the summer, I don't think the gist of his article is aimed at you.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 209x50

You think real hard and it will come to you.

Let me see. I post an article by someone whom I don't think I've ever mentioned here before and you come up with this?

"Of course the opinion of a personal hero would be much louder in your ears than in someone else's less infatuated ears. LOL!"

The only thing I can come up with has nothing to do with me.

[Twisted Canuck]

Well, personally I got the drift of the articls and agreed with it before I read it. I have shot, and can shoot magnums, and have good consistent accuracy. But frankly, they stopped being fun for me quite a few years ago, particularily as I damaged my shoulder some years back. Now I shoot a 7mm-08, and I enjoy shooting it. I also have full confidence to use it on any game in Alberta, particularily with good bullets. At this point, even if my shoulder wasn't an issue, and I could chose to shoot whatever I wanted to, I'd still stick with what I have. It will get the job done, I know it's limits and mine. Making a critter 'deader' with a magnum is fine for those who like to, as long as those who shoot magnums can also concede that they aren't absolutely necessary to hunt, either. I don't see a problem with a person shooting either, as long as they are comfortable and confident with their chosen calibre/rifle.

I do think though, that the trend towards Uber Magnums (which is all about making money for the manufacturer by diversifying the product line) has fooled some people into thinking that if you don't hunt with one, you aren't being an 'ethical' or informed hunter.... Just my opinion.....

[bigd]

seems like a waste of time fellas. It's a free country, shoot what ever you want to and who cares what the 'other' guy shoots. As for me, I love every cartridge - I have a bunch from .17Mach2 on up to .375 Ruger. I use them all and I love them all. I don't need some fancy gunwriter (or anybody for that matter...) to tell me what's right or wrong with whatever caliber- that's up to me to decide on my own.

If you love your .270, fill your boots. If you love to use your .375, go nuts...who cares?? Just have fun and enjoy our rights while they last.

[flint]

Originally Posted by bigd

seems like a waste of time fellas. It's a free country, shoot what ever you want to and who cares what the 'other' guy shoots. As for me, I love every cartridge - I have a bunch from .17Mach2 on up to .375 Ruger. I use them all and I love them all. I don't need some fancy gunwriter (or anybody for that matter...) to tell me what's right or wrong with whatever caliber- that's up to me to decide on my own.

If you love your .270, fill your boots. If you love to use your .375, go nuts...who cares?? Just have fun and enjoy our rights while they last.

I do care what the other guy shoot's. I have guided American hunters for seven years and only two, I repeat only two were good shooters. The rest of them shot magnum cartridges and long story short........I had to track down wounded deer. The most utilized cartridges today is still the 30-06 Springfield and the 270 Winchester. Why? Well there are several reasons.......they don't have much recoil, hunters shoot better with them, ammo is less expensive than magnum cartridges, cartridges can be located in most small town's, larger selection of firearms, guns are lighter, and they kill just as good as any magnum within 400 yards or maybe more. As far as enjoying our rights, well it's not our right, it's a privilage, but that's another story.

[Dick284]

Practice, practice practice.
Guchi equiptment can only take you so far.
Chosing something middle of the road might be a good idea
Most hunters are less than good shots.


Interesting points.

All debated lots on here.

Certain folks claim practice is over rated.
Others claim the latest and greatest do dadd is all you need to be a top notched marksman.
Others claim anything that does'nt say magnum will even kill a jack rabbit.
And many profess to their shooting skill, but could'nt hit a beach ball at 150yds with a solid rest.


Who'd a thunk it.


Lets put this all together.

Relating what your eye see's, to trigger the brain to send the right impulse to your trigger finger in the right order, taking into account your heart rate and breathing. Wow I wonder how that seemingly super human skill gets developed.....Practice??

If you have no skill set, the latest and greatest add on or wonderfully complex reticle in the scope will do you about as much good as putting a 90 yr old grand mother in the seat of an F1 racing car.

I wonder how my Dad and his chronies put anything in the larder in their day, with wopnderfully inept cartridges like 30/30's, 300 Savages, and 303's, and gawd forbid a high stepping(to them) 270 Win.

And as for hunter's and their accuracy potential, well everbody on the internet has a 1/2MOA rifle, and certainly knows how to shoot it, it must be fact they write about it on these pages almost daily.

I see it every year, guys claiming 1/2 moa accuracy, only to see 1.5MOA groups, and such poor shooting form once off the bench that a 5 gallon bucket at 150yds might as well be at 600 yds.


Fact of the matter is most hunter do not shoot near enough, they are over gunned, and are infatuated with marketing and shinyness.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Fact of the matter is most hunter do not shoot near enough, they are over gunned, and are infatuated with marketing and shinyness.

Isn't that the absolute truth!

It's funny, I actually think with the proper equipment and a small amount of coaching, most people are far better shots than they think. You put the proper rig in their hands, spend a few minutes going over the basics and most people can hit a grounghod sillouette at 500 yards pretty consistently. I've found that while most people sneer at poor shots at the range, if you'd just take a few minutes with them, they'd be shooting like they never imagined they could. You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong, you'll never get it right. Take a few minutes to pass along some tips and most people are quite capable at 500 yards....with the right gear of course. At least that's been my experience.

[robfraser]

I srongly disagee sheephunter.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by robfraser

I srongly disagee sheephunter.

I agree to a point.

There is a WORLD of difference between shooting at live targets in the field and clay pigeons on a dirt bank.

Originally Posted by robfraser

I srongly disagee sheephunter.

Could be, that's just been my experience working with some novice shooters and a couple, well, not so good shooters. With a little coaching, they were hitting the 500 yard target with relative ease. I honestly believe most people are far better shots than they ever believed when the right gear and bit of coaching is offered to them. Several other experienced shooters whom I respect have told me the same thing.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's funny, I actually think with the proper equipment and a small amount of coaching, most people are far better shots than they think. You put the proper rig in their hands, spend a few minutes going over the basics and most people can hit a grounghod sillouette at 500 yards pretty consistently. I've found that while most people sneer at poor shots at the range, if you'd just take a few minutes with them, they'd be shooting like they never imagined they could. You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong, you'll never get it right. Take a few minutes to pass along some tips and most people are quite capable at 500 yards....with the right gear of course. At least that's been my experience.

I completely agree and would take it one step further. If you put a good setup in their hands, one that is a confirmed .5 MOA rifle most people are remarkable shots. Get them to practice properly with a good setup and many are capable 500 yards and beyond - easily. I've proven it at the range many times. You don't have to be a freak of nature or even gifted to make these shots, I'm living proof of that. Good gear and practice is the key.
The biggest problem today is that people don't shoot properly tuned and matched ammo and quality equipment. Worse many purchase too large of cartridges and shoot rifles that they are incapable of handling the recoil of. Many have no idea of what they should shoot or how to get there either and we end up with the worst case scenario of people who don't practice and attempt shots they have no business trying.

[flint]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I completely agree and would take it one step further. If you put a good setup in their hands, one that is a confirmed .5 MOA rifle most people are remarkable shots. Get them to practice properly with a good setup and many are capable 500 yards and beyond - easily. I've proven it at the range many times. You don't have to be a freak of nature or even gifted to make these shots, I'm living proof of that. Good gear and practice is the key.
The biggest problem today is that people don't shoot properly tuned and matched ammo and quality equipment. Worse many purchase too large of cartridges and shoot rifles that they are incapable of handling the recoil of. Many have no idea of what they should shoot or how to get there either and we end up with the worst case scenario of people who don't practice and attempt shots they have no business trying.

What position at the range are you stating?....bench, prone, sitting, kneeling, standing. I leave for Medicine Hat on August 27th to spend three days to help my nephew set up all of is new reloading equipment, reload, shoot and scout for buck antelope. When at the Medicine Hat rifle range there will be 100, 200 and 300 hundred yard shooting going on utilizing all the above positions. At 500 yards, no sir, maybe at 400 yards, I perfer to utilize more hunting than shooting skills, however to each their own. It gets the good old heart pumping to sneek up on that animal instead of resting the crosshairs tight behind the front leg. That's my experience.

[leo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's funny, I actually think with the proper equipment and a small amount of coaching, most people are far better shots than they think. You put the proper rig in their hands, spend a few minutes going over the basics and most people can hit a grounghod sillouette at 500 yards pretty consistently. I've found that while most people sneer at poor shots at the range, if you'd just take a few minutes with them, they'd be shooting like they never imagined they could. You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong, you'll never get it right. Take a few minutes to pass along some tips and most people are quite capable at 500 yards....with the right gear of course. At least that's been my experience.

Originally Posted by 209x50

I completely agree and would take it one step further. If you put a good setup in their hands, one that is a confirmed .5 MOA rifle most people are remarkable shots. Get them to practice properly with a good setup and many are capable 500 yards and beyond - easily. I've proven it at the range many times. You don't have to be a freak of nature or even gifted to make these shots, I'm living proof of that. Good gear and practice is the key.
The biggest problem today is that people don't shoot properly tuned and matched ammo and quality equipment. Worse many purchase too large of cartridges and shoot rifles that they are incapable of handling the recoil of. Many have no idea of what they should shoot or how to get there either and we end up with the worst case scenario of people who don't practice and attempt shots they have no business trying.

I agree for the most part. I have found it easier to teach someone to shoot accurately that doesn't have any experience shooting VS someone who has more gun /cartridge than they can handle and picked up a bushel of bad shooting habits, most are afraid of their firearm. As well there is no substitute for the best equipment your budget allows provided it fits properly,then match it with an accurate load. Followed by practise ,practise with good shooting form.

[robfraser]

I agree with Dick.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It's funny, I actually think with the proper equipment and a small amount of coaching, most people are far better shots than they think. You put the proper rig in their hands, spend a few minutes going over the basics and most people can hit a grounghod sillouette at 500 yards pretty consistently. I've found that while most people sneer at poor shots at the range, if you'd just take a few minutes with them, they'd be shooting like they never imagined they could. You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong, you'll never get it right. Take a few minutes to pass along some tips and most people are quite capable at 500 yards....with the right gear of course. At least that's been my experience.

Not only rifles, but this can apply to shotguns as well.
A few weeks back a friend came out the the club, and was having problems.
I stood behind him and watched him shot a bit, then showed him how to mount the gun and follow the bird.
He started hitting.

last week end, after having shot a box and a half of ammo without any birds at the Pointer Party, i took him out with my own 20 gauge O/U ( he was shooting a semi 12 gauge), and explained how he should mount the gun ans swing on the birds, etc.
first bird that went up went down with a single shot, simple like dat!
However, reinforcement is needed as well, and the next day he went out and we could here "BANG-BANG-BANG!!" from the Big 12 constantly, once again- dunno how many times he shot, but he DID get one bird!
A shooter sometimes needs to have a coach with him more than a few times to get the hang of things and to remember stuff, sometimes, and i also agree with the school of thought that regular and proper practise will give better results over using top notch gear only....
Cat

[elkhunter11]

Not only rifles, but this can apply to shotguns as well.
A few weeks back a friend came out the the club, and was having problems.
I stood behind him and watched him shot a bit, then showed him how to mount the gun and follow the bird.
He started hitting.

last week end, after having shot a box and a half of ammo without any birds at the Pointer Party, i took him out with my own 20 gauge O/U ( he was shooting a semi 12 gauge), and explained how he should mount the gun ans swing on the birds, etc.
first bird that went up went down with a single shot, simple like dat!
However, reinforcement is needed as well, and the next day he went out and we could here "BANG-BANG-BANG!!" from the Big 12 constantly, once again- dunno how many times he shot, but he DID get one bird!
A shooter sometimes needs to have a coach with him more than a few times to get the hang of things and to remember stuff, sometimes, and i also agree with the school of thought that regular and proper practise will give better results over using top notch gear only....
Cat

An improperly fitted gun is a huge part of this individuals problem,he actually shot a few right handed guns much better than his own left handed gun,and he is left handed.He ordered a custom fitted 20gauge o/u,but the order was messed up terribly,resulting in a gun that fits no better than his own gun.Hopefully the dealer will do what it takes to properly resolve this issue very soon.

Cat and myself have both worked with this individual,and once he has a properly fitted gun,we will have him shooting much better than he is now.

Could be, that's just been my experience working with some novice shooters and a couple, well, not so good shooters. With a little coaching, they were hitting the 500 yard target with relative ease. I honestly believe most people are far better shots than they ever believed when the right gear and bit of coaching is offered to them. Several other experienced shooters whom I respect have told me the same thing.

A huge problem with many people,is that they have no idea at all of the cartridge's trajectory out to 500 yards.Many of them simply sight the gun in at 100 yards,take a few shots at gongs at 200 yards or so,then go hunting and attempt 400 yard or 500 yard shots on game.It takes a bit of effort on their part to learn the trajectory of their load if they ever want to be competent at 500 yards.
Other problems include resting the barrel instead of the stock when shooting off of a rest,mixing loads,not realizing that different loads often shoot to different points of impact,flinching when firing the gun,yanking the trigger,etc.Some of these issues can be cured relatively quickly with a little coaching,but others take time,and effort on the shooters part to deal with.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

A huge problem with many people,is that they have no idea at all of the cartridge's trajectory out to 500 yards.Many of them simply sight the gun in at 100 yards,take a few shots at gongs at 200 yards or so,then go hunting and attempt 400 yard or 500 yard shots on game.It takes a bit of effort on their part to learn the trajectory of their load if they ever want to be competent at 500 yards.
.

With ballistic reticle scopes like the Rapid Z....you really don't need to have a clue about trajectory. It's just point and shoot as long as you need know the range. I can have most people hitting a 500 yard target routinely with 10 minutes of coaching. They don't even know what cartridge they are shooting...let alone its trajectory. Technology is a wonderful thing.

[elkhunter11]

With ballistic reticle scopes like the Rapid Z....you really don't need to have a clue about trajectory. It's just point and shoot as long as you need know the range. I can have most people hitting a 500 yard target routinely with 10 minutes of coaching. They don't even know what cartridge they are shooting...let alone its trajectory. Technology is a wonderful thing.

That is fine as long as it is calm out,what do they do if they have to shoot and there is wind present?10 minutes of coaching isn't going to teach them how to judge wind,and how to compensate for it.

As for ballistic reticle scopes,the shooter does need to know the actual muzzle velocity of the load in their gun as well as the BC of the bullet in order to select the proper reticle for their rifle.And if they change loads,to a load with a different trajectory,they need to compensate for the difference in trajectory.

Technology does not replace all of the skills necessary to be a competent shooter.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That is fine as long as it is calm out,what do they do if they have to shoot and there is wind present?10 minutes of coaching isn't going to teach them how to judge wind,and how to compensate for it.

As for ballistic reticle scopes,the shooter does need to know the actual muzzle velocity of the load in their gun as well as the BC of the bullet in order to select the proper reticle for their rifle.And if they change loads,to a load with a different trajectory,they need to compensate for the difference in trajectory.

Technology does not replace all of the skills necessary to be a competent shooter.

Actually the reticle is graduated for wind in 10mph increments and if they are shooting factory loads they don't need to know BC or velocity. The computer program is amazingly accurate...at least in my experience. If they change loads, they just punch in the new load. It's so simple even a caveman could do it. I'm guessing your experience with Rapid Z is limited or non existent? I agree technology doesn't replace all of the skills but it sure makes a lot of old school shooters feel threatened.

[Arn?Narn.]

Just to get .02 $ in here..

I agree, a little coaching can go a long way...but honestly, I know many decent shooters who have never been coached nor have they ever shot a round of clays or silhouette. They do not have properly fitted shotguns or notice the difference on a 1200 fps and 1300 fps load...

Are they gonna go to the Canadian Trap finals or whatever?

Doubt it,...probably not even if they were invited.

I respect guys knowledge of loads and rifles and such, but there is also a point where stuff is made more complicated than it needs to be.

Is holding on the hump to 400yrds a technical or highly accepted way of shooting,..maybe not, but I have seen a lot of animals drop this way.

I applaud those who know the exact trajectory of their load and make the appropriate adjustments on the Turrets etc....

[elkhunter11]

Actually the reticle is graduated for wind in 10mph increments

Which isn't a great deal of help,unless you know the wind speed and direction all the way to the target.Estimating the wind speed and direction takes experience.There are wind measuring devices,but unless you take measurements all the way to the target,they are of little use,since wind speed and direction can vary considerably over 500 yards.

and if they are shooting factory loads they don't need to know BC or velocity.The computer program is amazingly accurate..

The computer program has no way of knowing the velocity that a given load will produce in a given rifle.There are too many variations in chamber and barrel dimensions,as well as in lot#s of ammunition for a computer to compensate for them.Without the proper muzzle velocity,you can't know if the data produced by the computer program is accurate.Or are you suggesting that a given load will produce the same velocity in all firearms with the same barrel length?I know for a fact from chronographing many loads in many different guns,that this isn't the case.Even with the same length barrels,the velocity can vary by over 100fps from the velocity provided by the manufacturer.Some guns will produce more velocity with a given load,and some less.And of course the velocity varies with temperature,some loads by over 100fps when the temperature changes by 40degrees C.

Does the computer even have every factory load for every cartridge in it's data bank?

I'm guessing your experience with Rapid Z is limited or non existent? I agree technology doesn't replace all of the skills but it sure makes a lot of old school shooters feel threatened.

I have some experience with more than one ballistic reticle scope,both Zeiss and Leupold,and I prefer calibrated turrets like the Leupold CDS,or BDS system,where you supply the exact muzzle velocity and BC,and a custom dial is made for that particular load.Even with them,they aren't perfect due to velocity changes with temperature,and other atmospheric conditions.

I do use a laser rangefinder,and I do use a chronograph to measure the muzzle velocity,so I am not really an old school shooter.I even have a CDS equipped scope on order to install on my varmint rifle.And I don't feel threatened at all,since I have seen for myself that although technology ,can make longer range shooting simpler,it can't replace shooting skills and experience,especially at longer distance,and in windy conditions.

[Bushrat]

Shooting at the range is one thing when the winds and angles are known, thats fine but often times the ballistic tables and multiplex scope reticles go out the window in hunting situations where there could be a 10 mph wind in one direction where your at and a 30 mph wind in the opposite direction where the target/animal is, add in 38 degrees of angle angle down a hill across a valley 631 yds away. Are you sure you can do that without windflags, wind meters at those varoius distances without the ballistics laptop out on the mountain? I've seen so many guys proud of their abilities at the range wonder why they missed one of those shots they claim are easy. We all have watched the videos of someone shooting an animal 500-1000 yds away, looks easy and it can be if conditions are right, they neglect to show you the footage of all the critters they miss in the videos. All I wish is for people to shoot within their known abilities whether it's 50 yds or 1000yds, many don't. The more you shoot long range, the more you begin to realize how unpredictable it can be.

Which isn't a great deal of help,unless you know the wind speed and direction all the way to the target.Estimating the wind speed and direction takes experience.There are wind measuring devices,but unless you take measurements all the way to the target,they are of little use,since wind speed and direction can vary considerably over 500 yards.

Thanks for making my point.....I couldn't agree more...experience or technology don't help you much here. Watching mirage angle and direction is about yout best indicator to 10 mph but after that it's all guessing anyhow. Technology or old school, the wind isn't the place for long-range shooting. That's part of the 10 minute coaching session and I still have 9 1/2 minutes left...

although technology ,can make longer range shooting simpler,it can't replace shooting skills

Haven't heard anyone say anything different....In fact that's the exact point I've been making since day one. All I've said is that in 10 minutes I can have someone routinely hitting a 500 yard target with a Rapid Z and they don't need to know anything about trajectory or ballistics, and I can... Not doubt I could do the same with a Huskamaw scope. Both are pretty user friendly...basically so simple a caveman could use them. They sure are threatening to some though.

[209x50]

The more you shoot long range, the more you begin to realize how unpredictable it can be.

You know I used to think like that until I started doing a lot of long range shooting with the proper gear.