Joe Blow Accuracy

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Mateo

$50 sandbag would be more than ideal? Or are you referring to the adjustable rest with all the wheels and gizmos. I shoot off of an Atlas bipod for prone, Harris bipod for sitting, and rice filled bag for bench and some prone.

Two sand bags is all that is required to shoot groups under 1",
Cat

[Altaboy]

Originally Posted by Mateo

$50 sandbag would be more than ideal? Or are you referring to the adjustable rest with all the wheels and gizmos. I shoot off of an Atlas bipod for prone, Harris bipod for sitting, and rice filled bag for bench and some prone.

Yeah. You know the ones you get at Toys Are Us. Fisher Price I think. 👍🏻

[elkhunter11]

You don't need an expensive rest to shoot decent groups, but I still have to shake my head when someone shows up at the range with a wooden v-block that they rest the barrel on to shoot. Then they chase the point of impact around the target until they either run out of ammunition, or manage to get one impact near the bullseye, then they declare that good enough and go hunting.

[Canuck Bob]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

At 100 yards:
Bench rest at the range,2"
Off elbows at the range , 4"
Offhand at the range, 1 foot
On the Internet , 1/2" or better

Cat

I am in the same league!!

[JWCalgary]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

I was looking for this on the net and didn't really find what I was looking for so thought I would try here.

What size of group would you expect the average joe blow farmer firearm enthusiast (maybe fires 250-500rds/year from various rifles/shotguns) to have on a range target at 100 yds with a factory rifle w/ mid-range optics and factory ammo. I know there are a million variables here but what would you consider "average". To narrow it down a bit lets say he has 2 rifles, 1 is a 300 win mag and the other is a 22-250, just to have 2 very different recoiling cartridges, both rifles in the $1000 range and optics in the $1000 range as well.

What size group would be so bad that you would say, you need a lot of practice or there is something wrong with that rifle. What size would you say, yeah that kinda what I expected and what size would make you think wow that's pretty impressive?

Just curious as to what people categorize as poor, med, good.

OK from the bench, my shooting happiness at 100m is as folllows:

Excellent = .5 or better
Good = 1 to .5
Med = 1 - 1.5
Poor = anything beyond the above.

Calibre should make no difference imo. Rifle would matter, ammo would matter and the biggest factor if the rifle and ammo are good is of course the person on the trigger

Ps: sorry for the prior derail

[GotMopar]

No worries.

I would tend to think bigger rifles would be more likely to cause flinching issues, user pending of course. What do people think about lead sleds? Just for zeroing, I'm only interested to see what the rifle is mechanically capable of and then try to replicate from hunting positions.

[albertadeer]

If he can hit his empty beer can at 100 freestanding he's a crack shot...

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

No worries.

I would tend to think bigger rifles would be more likely to cause flinching issues, user pending of course. What do people think about lead sleds? Just for zeroing, I'm only interested to see what the rifle is mechanically capable of and then try to replicate from hunting positions.

If you want the ultimate in accuracy get a front tripod rest and rear bag set up.
Cat

[leo]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

No worries.

I would tend to think bigger rifles would be more likely to cause flinching issues, user pending of course. What do people think about lead sleds? Just for zeroing, I'm only interested to see what the rifle is mechanically capable of and then try to replicate from hunting positions.

I live 10 minutes north of you. I have a couple bags you can borrow. And even better, there is a homemade bench and stool in my back yard that needs to find a new home. If you want it you can have it, just PM me. I forgot. There is a target stand I built too. You can have it all.
Leo

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

No worries.

I would tend to think bigger rifles would be more likely to cause flinching issues, user pending of course. What do people think about lead sleds? Just for zeroing, I'm only interested to see what the rifle is mechanically capable of and then try to replicate from hunting positions.

I doubt that I am the exception ... having experience that low recoiling rifles group better than heavy recoil rigs. And, that "flinch" is not the cause. There are probably several additional factors, but I believe that the hold to control "torque roll", and slide makes repeatability more of a challenge.
Most experienced shooters will counsel a rest- bag combination over lead sleds. The key to overcoming flinch is to shoot lots.
Of course practice from field positions is crucial to developing field position competence, and the same is true of bench shooting ...but make no mistake, time at the bench is never wasted.

[222rem]

Most of us have falls dream we dream of 1/2 inch 1 inch group .
However in reality a 3 inch group is VERY acceptable accuracy for hunting deer up to 200 yards .
Vital area of deer is NOT 3/4 inch it is at least 6 inches that makes 3 inch group more then adequate at 200 yards to humanly kill a deer .
A $5000.00 rife that is capable of shooting one hole group is not going to kill a deer any better then a rifle that in shooting honest 3 inch group .
Can you handle reality ?

[leo]

Originally Posted by leo

I live 10 minutes north of you. I have a couple bags you can borrow. And even better, there is a homemade bench and stool in my back yard that needs to find a new home. If you want it you can have it, just PM me. I forgot. There is a target stand I built too. You can have it all.
Leo

Well the OP came and picked up the bench and stuff tonight. What a very nice young man. I was happy to see this stuff go somewhere and get used. Nice to meet you GotMopar.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 222rem

Most of us have falls dream we dream of 1/2 inch 1 inch group .
However in reality a 3 inch group is VERY acceptable accuracy for hunting deer up to 200 yards .
Vital area of deer is NOT 3/4 inch it is at least 6 inches that makes 3 inch group more then adequate at 200 yards to humanly kill a deer .
A $5000.00 rife that is capable of shooting one hole group is not going to kill a deer any better then a rifle that in shooting honest 3 inch group .
Can you handle reality ?

A 3 inch group off of a bench, and a 3" group under field conditions are very very different things.
That is reality.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by leo

Well the OP came and picked up the bench and stuff tonight. What a very nice young man. I was happy to see this stuff go somewhere and get used. Nice to meet you GotMopar.

Good of you to share some experienced equipment & help a guy out. Thanks for that

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by leo

Well the OP came and picked up the bench and stuff tonight. What a very nice young man. I was happy to see this stuff go somewhere and get used. Nice to meet you GotMopar.

That's great Leo, I'm sure the bench came with a bunch of good advice to boot.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For every person that shoots 1-3' with the 300winmag, there will be a person that flinches so bad that he shoots 3-4" groups.

1 to 1-1/2" is probably average for the 22-250.

Fixed it for ya...

[leo]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

That's great Leo, I'm sure the bench came with a bunch of good advice to boot.

And a promise of some reloading lessons if he so chooses.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

I was looking for this on the net and didn't really find what I was looking for so thought I would try here.

What size of group would you expect the average joe blow farmer firearm enthusiast (maybe fires 250-500rds/year from various rifles/shotguns) to have on a range target at 100 yds with a factory rifle w/ mid-range optics and factory ammo. I know there are a million variables here but what would you consider "average". To narrow it down a bit lets say he has 2 rifles, 1 is a 300 win mag and the other is a 22-250, just to have 2 very different recoiling cartridges, both rifles in the $1000 range and optics in the $1000 range as well.

What size group would be so bad that you would say, you need a lot of practice or there is something wrong with that rifle. What size would you say, yeah that kinda what I expected and what size would make you think wow that's pretty impressive?

Just curious as to what people categorize as poor, med, good.

Minute of barn wall... From the inside...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Fixed it for ya...

For the people that only shoot a few shots per year, that is about right, but the OP specified the person that shoots 250-500 rounds per year, and that rules out a lot of the really pathetic shooters.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

For the people that only shoot a few shots per year, that is about right, but the OP specified the person that shoots 250-500 rounds per year, and that rules out a lot of the really pathetic shooters.

I know folk who do shoot that much a year... 1-3 feet at 100 is reasonable...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by amosfella

I know folk who do shoot that much a year... 1-3 feet at 100 is reasonable...

And I know some that shoot about that much , and 3" is reasonable for them.

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

Originally Posted by GotMopar

I was looking for this on the net and didn't really find what I was looking for so thought I would try here.

What size of group would you expect the average joe blow farmer firearm enthusiast (maybe fires 250-500rds/year from various rifles/shotguns) to have on a range target at 100 yds with a factory rifle w/ mid-range optics and factory ammo. I know there are a million variables here but what would you consider "average". To narrow it down a bit lets say he has 2 rifles, 1 is a 300 win mag and the other is a 22-250, just to have 2 very different recoiling cartridges, both rifles in the $1000 range and optics in the $1000 range as well.

What size group would be so bad that you would say, you need a lot of practice or there is something wrong with that rifle. What size would you say, yeah that kinda what I expected and what size would make you think wow that's pretty impressive?


Just curious as to what people categorize as poor, med, good.

As you stated there are a million different variables, one persons average group compaired to the next guy can't really be compared the way I see it. Some have natural ability that others struggle with their whole lives. Mel Gibson and the smiley face would be a good example. To answer your question though I would say a four inch group in given conditions with no wind or temperature variables for a nube

[Brobee]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Or shoot it off the bench because they can't hit squat at 100 yards from the unsupported positions or off a pack, etc.......
Cat

I'm with Cat on this one.

Me personally....I change up my hunting rifles all the time as I like to try new things. If I'm not capable of shooting at 1.5 inch or smaller group at 100 meters with any new gun I'll swap/sell/trade it out right away, however I've almost never had a rifle, even a cheap one, that was not capable of this.

Once I'm comfortable that the rifle is capable of an inch and a half, I pour my range efforts into seeing how well I can shoot the gun under a variety of shooting positions. Most of the time this is pretty revealing, and lets me know in no uncertain terms what I need to practice. I'm always amazed when folks put all their effort into trying to take their rig from 0.75MOA down to 0.50MOA, but never put any practice into shooting it from anything other than ideal conditions.

Anyway, this dovetails nicely with another thread I just posted in this same forum on my "hunter marksman" project for school. I'd be thrilled if folks gave it a try... click here to go to the challenge

Cheers,

Brobee

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Brobee

I'm with Cat on this one.

Me personally....I change up my hunting rifles all the time as I like to try new things. If I'm not capable of shooting at 1.5 inch or smaller group at 100 meters with any new gun I'll swap/sell/trade it out right away, however I've almost never had a rifle, even a cheap one, that was not capable of this.

Once I'm comfortable that the rifle is capable of an inch and a half, I pour my range efforts into seeing how well I can shoot the gun under a variety of shooting positions. Most of the time this is pretty revealing, and lets me know in no uncertain terms what I need to practice. I'm always amazed when folks put all their effort into trying to take their rig from 0.75MOA down to 0.50MOA, but never put any practice into shooting it from anything other than ideal conditions.

Anyway, this dovetails nicely with another thread I just posted in this same forum on my "hunter marksman" project for school. I'd be thrilled if folks gave it a try... click here to go to the challenge

Cheers,

Brobee

I don't fit the Joe Blow description because I use hand loads and shoot much more than 200 to 500 rounds per year, but I won't own a hunting rifle that won't shoot sub moa with my hunting load. That being said, once I have a load developed, and the rifle is sighted in, I am done shooting groups off of the bench. If its a rifle that will be used with a bipod' I mount the bipod and verify the point of impact , and practice with the bipod. I then shoot at various ranges from field positions, until I am comfortable with the rifle. I don't believe that I have hunted with a big game rifle that I haven't fired at least 100 rounds through first, in a very long time.

[super7mag]

Hunting groups and bench rest are two completely different animals.
Last week I had a buddy that had bought his girlfriend a rifle for x-mas.
I nice Tikka T3 compact as she is short and shorter arms.
I mounted a Nikon monarch 3x9x40 and bore sighted it.
Went out in my back forty and we shot then patched the first 5 ( after each round) then we put it on paper at 25 . Backed up to 100 and made a couple of adjustments .
I then handed her her rifle , it's all yours , she put 3 shots 2" high in a 1-1/2" group straight above the bull. I'm thinking with some warm weather and a bit more practice she's will shrink that down. But for calling coyotes this winter which is why he bought it I'd say she's good to go..
That would be avg Joe Blow accuracy to me , I guess we will see if the yotes agree.

[synik]

IF: The rifle in question is bagged up properly AND: is shooting it's preferred factory ammo AND the shooter knows trigger control, the rifle should be able to print 1" to 1 1/2" groups no problem. maybe less.

[Shawnw]

With my weatherby vanguard 223 I'm around 1". With my weatherby vanguard 7mm rem mag I'm 1-2" not matter what bullet or grain I try can never close groups even bases and new scopes. With my browning xbolt medallion I'm 3/4-1" all shooting of bags or backpack

[GotMopar]

Originally Posted by leo

Well the OP came and picked up the bench and stuff tonight. What a very nice young man. I was happy to see this stuff go somewhere and get used. Nice to meet you GotMopar.

Thanks for the kind words and equipment! Definitely much appreciated!
Lots of helpful knowledge from Leo, hopefully I can get some free time soon to build some handloads with him.

[GotMopar]

Hey guys, just thought i would put an update here. I used the bench that Leo let me have on the weekend along with a "the rock" front rest and rear bag that was recommended to me by Cat and voila! I was shooting sub moa 5-shot groups pretty consistently, even had a couple that were pretty close to 1/2" at 100yds. So i am pretty happy thanks for your help guys!

One other thing i changed at the same time was that i sanded out the forend of my stock a bit more. I could only fit about 1 sheet of paper between the barrel and stock previously, so i sanded it out with sand paper on a metal rod until i could easily slip 4 sheets in between just to give some extra clearance with no real other impacts. Probably more the bench and rest than anything though.

[leo]

Glad to help. Good shooting!