Trapper Legal Fund

[Brian Bildson]

Dave - easy solution for your issues

#1 don't take the course

#2 move to one of those cheaper provinces

or what I'd recommend:

#3 Become an instructor and move to one of those cheaper provinces with all the money you'll make in a year

[The Spruce]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

The ATA is not supposed to be a for profit business, it's supposed to be a non profit ADVOCACY. Your ideas (ie tent) would have been valid back when the course was made mandatory without the proper resources in place. Now, there are instructors scattered around the province. Besides, I don't think that the per diem/hotels are included in that $1300 instructor's pay, that would be separate, additional costs. Now that, for the most part, the hotels are eliminated, so do the expenses to conduct the course. Does turning a larger profit for the ATA trump using that money to lower the cost of the course?

How much do you want to bet that Wolfcrazy will instruct this course right in his backyard and not be living in a tent and cooking his own meals?

Peace River
October 7-9, 2017
Call 780-349-6626 for more information or to register.



As would I, but not if the cost of the course remained at $399. I'm willing to bet that there are good people in every Local in Alberta who'd be willing to give up one weekend per year to conduct a course for free. Knocking off $1300 from a course of 10 students would put the cost of the course at $269 per student. Take the per diem/hotel out of it and the cost would even be lower. Then you apply the free MOU money that is provided by the GOA for training to the cost of the course and it drops a whole lot more after that. IMO, a $250 Basic Trapping course is possible and still turn a bit of a profit for the ATA.

The problem is with people on the Executive also being instructors, how many would be willing to give up their $1300 three day gig and support something like that? I know of two Directors who would not.

Dave,

You are an id... There I said what everyone else was thinking. You are everything that is wrong with Trapping in this province. You and the do nothing friends you carry should go hide under a rock and never come out. Your simple minded campaign to make trapping courses free is stupid. It solves nothing, and is just a cry for attention. Wah, Wah look at me, I'm over here! Try doing something productive with your day, like maybe trapping? You should be better than 1-2 beavers a day by now...geez you don't even have a job, I try not to run that many over while I am out checking traps after work. You worry about the "little guy", because you are the little guy. Man up and take some initiative withinthe ata is it bothers you so much.

And as for becoming a trapping instructor...I laughed when you said that. Your whopping 2 years of internet trapping experience doesn't translate to very much "real life" trapping. Leave that to the experts that have learned the hard way, not the read and repeat like yourself.

[braggadoe]

Originally Posted by The Spruce

Dave,

You are an id... There I said what everyone else was thinking. You are everything that is wrong with Trapping in this province. You and the do nothing friends you carry should go hide under a rock and never come out. Your simple minded campaign to make trapping courses free is stupid. It solves nothing, and is just a cry for attention. Wah, Wah look at me, I'm over here! Try doing something productive with your day, like maybe trapping? You should be better than 1-2 beavers a day by now...geez you don't even have a job, I try not to run that many over while I am out checking traps after work. You worry about the "little guy", because you are the little guy. Man up and take some initiative withinthe ata is it bothers you so much.

And as for becoming a trapping instructor...I laughed when you said that. Your whopping 2 years of internet trapping experience doesn't translate to very much "real life" trapping. Leave that to the experts that have learned the hard way, not the read and repeat like yourself.

Best post i've seen on this forum in years!

well said spruce.

[st99]

Originally Posted by The Spruce

Dave,

You are an id... There I said what everyone else was thinking. You are everything that is wrong with Trapping in this province. You and the do nothing friends you carry should go hide under a rock and never come out. Your simple minded campaign to make trapping courses free is stupid. It solves nothing, and is just a cry for attention. Wah, Wah look at me, I'm over here! Try doing something productive with your day, like maybe trapping? You should be better than 1-2 beavers a day by now...geez you don't even have a job, I try not to run that many over while I am out checking traps after work. You worry about the "little guy", because you are the little guy. Man up and take some initiative withinthe ata is it bothers you so much.

And as for becoming a trapping instructor...I laughed when you said that. Your whopping 2 years of internet trapping experience doesn't translate to very much "real life" trapping. Leave that to the experts that have learned the hard way, not the read and repeat like yourself.

x2.... the trapping section is becoming unpleasant to visit, all thanks to 1 whinny baby

[209x50]

Originally Posted by The Spruce

Dave,

You are an id... There I said what everyone else was thinking. You are everything that is wrong with Trapping in this province. You and the do nothing friends you carry should go hide under a rock and never come out. Your simple minded campaign to make trapping courses free is stupid. It solves nothing, and is just a cry for attention. Wah, Wah look at me, I'm over here! Try doing something productive with your day, like maybe trapping? You should be better than 1-2 beavers a day by now...geez you don't even have a job, I try not to run that many over while I am out checking traps after work. You worry about the "little guy", because you are the little guy. Man up and take some initiative withinthe ata is it bothers you so much.

And as for becoming a trapping instructor...I laughed when you said that. Your whopping 2 years of internet trapping experience doesn't translate to very much "real life" trapping. Leave that to the experts that have learned the hard way, not the read and repeat like yourself.

Perfect!

[13mileranch]

Well this thread seems to have started about the Legal Fund. So how much are the members giving?

How much loot will get whatever strategy, which doesn't seem to be clear yet but hopefully so, be kicked off.

Seems like guys like Brian Bildson, Richard Mellon, Jason Parker et al are on board. How much should a member send and how much are the proponents of this fund giving?

Certainly challenging the Govt. of Alberta won't be cheap. I'm guessing 200-400K at a minimum to complete litigation will be required with no guarantee of outcome. Take the regime that makes the laws and legislation to Court..lots of luck.

To just launch an appeal of legislation won't cost much, it is taking the challenge to completion that will test the true cost.

It would be interesting to see how many challenges like this ever even get to first base. My guess not many.

My opinion...Peeing in the wind especially with this Govt..

[HunterDave]

Here comes the shills! They can't argue against people's ideas or the facts so they have to attack the individuals expressing them instead. That's how they operate.....systems normal. And you wonder why the ATA is struggling with a credibility issue and why no one is interested in joining Locals and attending meetings.

There's really no point. I think that a fella would have more luck selling the virtues of eating red meat to a group of vegans than selling any positive change to a room full of bobble heads at an ATA meeting who've been told what direction they are going to go. Today's newsletter reiterated the Executives desire for transparency and gaining input from the membership. You fellas are working counterproductive to the ATA trying to regain their credibility with the same old attitudes and modus operandi. Who in the hell wants to subject themselves to that?!

You can attack me all that you want, you won't hurt my feelings. I assure you that I am not alone on this issue. Where do you think that I get all of my info from?

The Spruce......Obviously you are adamantly opposed to reducing the cost of the trapping course to make it more accessible to new Trappers so, instead of attacking me, why don't you state why? Why is having the highest costing trapping course in all of Canada important to you? Are you an instructor as well? Why is this not a good idea......:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

As would I, but not if the cost of the course remained at $399. I'm willing to bet that there are good people in every Local in Alberta who'd be willing to give up one weekend per year to conduct a course for free. Knocking off $1300 from a course of 10 students would put the cost of the course at $269 per student. Take the per diem/hotel out of it and the cost would even be lower. Then you apply the free MOU money that is provided by the GOA for training to the cost of the course and it drops a whole lot more after that. IMO, a $250 Basic Trapping course is possible and still turn a bit of a profit for the ATA.(

[tonnage]

Dave, the ATA isn't struggling with a credibility issue, you are. Give it a rest. You're turning a place where trappers should be coming together in support of each other into your own little soapbox. Attacking the ATA does nothing to further trapping in Alberta. These people are putting an incredible effort into protecting our rights, you're just further diminishing them and making their jobs, and our jobs as trappers, harder.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Dave, the ATA isn't struggling with a credibility issue, you are. Give it a rest. You're turning a place where trappers should be coming together in support of each other into your own little soapbox. Attacking the ATA does nothing to further trapping in Alberta. These people are putting an incredible effort into protecting our rights, you're just further diminishing them and making their jobs, and our jobs as trappers, harder.

Bingo.

[Trappingman]

Originally Posted by st99

x2.... the trapping section is becoming unpleasant to visit, all thanks to 1 whinny baby

Yup it is unfortunate that the mods allow one guy to destroy what used to be a good place to discuss trapping.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Trappingman

Yup it is unfortunate that the mods allow one guy to destroy what used to be a good place to discuss trapping.

With all due respect there was only one or maybe two reports sent on this and not until late last night and those people and sete deleted .
Personally I let this roll because fir the most part the rants were kept to a minimum but blaming the moderators " for letting this go on"
Is not the only problem here .

Cat

[The Spruce]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

And you wonder why the ATA is struggling with a credibility issue and why no one is interested in joining Locals and attending meetings.

The Spruce......Obviously you are adamantly opposed to reducing the cost of the trapping course to make it more accessible to new Trappers so, instead of attacking me, why don't you state why? Why is having the highest costing trapping course in all of Canada important to you? Are you an instructor as well? Why is this not a good idea......:

Same old same old hey Dave? You base your opinions on speculation, because you have nothing else to do all day. The ATA is as strong, if not stronger then ever before, heck there are even new locals popping up. Of course you wouldn't know this unless something was published that you could read and repeat. As for me, if the trapping course was $1000 I would have still taken it, and no I don't teach, no vested interest what so ever. It is mandatory now, so stop pouting and get on with your soap operas. The fact is you need something to bitch about. I think you are still sore over getting ribbed for not taking the course....and trying to teach newbies about trapping techniques that you have read on here but never actually used. I am done feeding the troll, go under your bridge for a nap. You will have some weak response that is all speculation and hearsay....usual Dave response.
As trappers we are strong together, its high time we had surgery and removed cancerous tumors like Dave.

Spruce

[The Spruce]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

With all due respect there was only one or maybe two reports sent on this and not until late last night and those people and sete deleted .
Personally I let this roll because fir the most part the rants were kept to a minimum but blaming the moderators " for letting this go on"
Is not the only problem here .

Cat

Thanks Cat, discussion needed.

[PCP_ECOM]

Yes I to used to like coming on this forum and getting help and giving some of my experiences for all to see and enjoy,and maybe pick up a couple tricks or pointer's,cause there are lots to pick from,but lately it's just been like parliament,alot of bickering and nothing getting done or accomplished,so ill check back in fall and see if it has subsided,cheers Peter Wild Land Trapping

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by The Spruce

Spruce

Still no comment on my idea to reduce the cost of the trapping course eh? I'm not surprised. As a President of a Local I thought that you might have shown a little interest in it.

If you can't address the issues then you are just wasting bandwidth.

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by The Spruce

Thanks Cat, discussion needed.

x2 There are a lot of people interested in this thread and are following it.

[blgoodbrand1]

Originally Posted by HunterDave

x2 There are a lot of people interested in this thread and are following it.

Yes there are. And maybe you should take a minute and read what they are saying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marty S]

This thread has been horribly derailed from it's original intention. How about we let this freakshow thread continue and the grown ups can start another Legal Defense Fund thread that stays on track and Dave can have this one, along with whatever audience he has?

It is an important topic to discuss.

[wolfcrazy]

Originally Posted by Trappingman

Yup it is unfortunate that the mods allow one guy to destroy what used to be a good place to discuss trapping.

X3

[HunterDave]

Here ya go.....The last post before the derail.

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Is that where this comes from, "Will be setting up large cash reserve fund to protect any trappers with major problem with latest changes."? I figured that money would come from the profits generated from Trapping courses.

[Wolftrapper]

Honestly all of this is very disheartening to follow and does leave a bad taste in your mouth. I for one will be away from it for quite awhile.
Happy, safe trapping to you all.

[tonnage]

So Dave, you're suggesting that the ATA uses money that it "might" generate from its MOU with government to supply a Legal Defense Fund that would be needed to challenge the very government that it holds the MOU with? Think about what you're saying, it makes zero sense. How long do you think the government would fund a Legal Defense Fund that, if needed, would be used against them? All Legal Defense Fund monies are coming directly from the trappers themselves and are held in trust entirely separate from ATA operations. The ATA has my $1000.

[nube]

Originally Posted by PCP_ECOM

Yes I to used to like coming on this forum and getting help and giving some of my experiences for all to see and enjoy,and maybe pick up a couple tricks or pointer's,cause there are lots to pick from,but lately it's just been like parliament,alot of bickering and nothing getting done or accomplished,so ill check back in fall and see if it has subsided,cheers Peter Wild Land Trapping

Peter this place was doomed long before. The only time you get a picture on here it is from the same few people.
There is a ton of info to be learned but the fact is it's the same handful of people that will ever share. Take a look at a lot of the frequent posters and there are a lot that like to talk but nothing of importance. I find it pretty sad especially when all a few of them can do it put people down for doing something right or wrong, never giving good feedback and basically adding nothing to the forum.
I'd love to see guys Like JAWA, 209, SPRUCE, Bragg, Bildson and many others posting like they used to. At Least I belong to other forums or facebook and can see them there

I used to think this was the place to come to learn and get better but it's not. People will only pipe up usually to put others down and be condecending. There is a lot of knowledge from guys that could be passed along and be very helpfull but for some reason it doesn't happen here unless u PM a guy. This is a real issue because all it does is make guys learn by trial and error and learn from mistakes along the way.

As for this topic. I am glad we have some support for fighting anyone who wants to shut down trapping or change things for the worse. I will support them! My trust in certain individuals and choices at times raise an eyebrow but I think we are better off with what we have than nothing at all.
There are bigger fish to fry than the costs involved in a trapping course. Nobody likes high prices. Who am I to judge if they are high or not here in Alberta. Maybe costs are that much more than other provinces but I don't know.
My main concern is the future of trapping in Alberta and I have said it numerous times before, the future does not look too bright with some massive changes that will affect us all.

Hopefully this snow melts quick so I can get back to smacking some rats and beaver again!!!

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by tonnage

So Dave, you're suggesting that the ATA uses money that it "might" generate from its MOU with government to supply a Legal Defense Fund that would be needed to challenge the very government that it holds the MOU with? Think about what you're saying, it makes zero sense. How long do you think the government would fund a Legal Defense Fund that, if needed, would be used against them? All Legal Defense Fund monies are coming directly from the trappers themselves and are held in trust entirely separate from ATA operations. The ATA has my $1000.

No, I never suggested that at all. What I was talking about was applying the education MOU money towards the Basic Trapping course to lower the cost of it. As people have mentioned this thread is supposed to be about the proposed Legal Defense fund and I'll leave you guys to it.

EDIT* Has anyone thought about the GOA holding back the MOU money for education if you take them to court?

[drake]

Being dependent on government funding is a bad idea (like the conflict of interest Dave's edit points out). Government money can be taken away as quickly as it is offered. I support efforts to increase ATA revenues including the current pricing model for the Basic Trapper Course and would also support increasing the cost of an ATA membership to $50 or $60 annually ($35 is pretty darn cheap considering the mag is included).

Lawyers don't work for free. The whole point of the defense fund is to create the financial means to fight if and when the need arises without jeopardizing the operational side of the ATA. Seems like a good plan to me. As someone who wants to see our trapping rights (resident and RFMA) protected I will be contributing.

[dugh]

Dave, if I were unhappy with something at the ATA I would ask to be added to an agenda at a board meeting and bring my beefs forward there, not here. I don't believe there are members on the board that won't discuss the possibility of improving something. As for the course being the most expensive in the country, don't forget Alberta has had the highest wages in the country for quite a while and may soon have the highest taxes/levies in the country. Also if we educate and license close to 500 new trappers a year, well that speaks for itself.
If you were pushing for a seniors discount at the store I'd be your biggest supporter.
Thanks for listening.
Doug

[jhaensel]

I heard about the legal defense fund at our local meeting. I think it is a very good idea. We need to be ready to protect our rights and our way of life. Also would like to say that a lot of trappers locals have been covering part or all of the cost of trapping courses for youths. I think that the amount of work that volunteers put in to the ATA needs to be talked about more as well, Guys like Brian Bildson and Gordy Klassen have given a lot of their time to support this way of life. I don't write on here much and don't even know how to post a picture, but I love trapping and I hope we can stop fighting among ourselves and see the big picture. Nothing wrong with having different opinions but by now we all know that certain people don't like the cost of the Mandatory Trappers Course. Lets move on

[bender]

x2 i will fully support the ATA in fighting for our survival. The antis are way more organized and funded than us , and our infighting distracts us from the true enemy.

[Thunder Elk Hunter]

Originally Posted by PCP_ECOM

Yes I to used to like coming on this forum and getting help and giving some of my experiences for all to see and enjoy,and maybe pick up a couple tricks or pointer's,cause there are lots to pick from,but lately it's just been like parliament,alot of bickering and nothing getting done or accomplished,so ill check back in fall and see if it has subsided,cheers Peter Wild Land Trapping

x2

[209x50]

Originally Posted by bender

x2 i will fully support the ATA in fighting for our survival. The antis are way more organized and funded than us , and our infighting distracts us from the true enemy.

Gordy is discussing the legal defense fund with local 1070. I've sent my check.