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  #31  
Old 02-25-2021, 04:59 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by huntingfamily View Post
Exactly. The numbers posted can't be taken seriously by anyone with a basic understanding of reloading.
Even reloading data from manuals that use pressure trace equipment needs to be used cautiously as you approach max loads listed...
This thread is about the 6.5x55 SE, not all cartridges. That's pretty basic, isn't it?
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  #32  
Old 02-25-2021, 05:30 PM
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That's a crock.
Go load the program, and check the results against existing reloading data, You'll find the results are very close regardless of powder, Your variations of 10% or more are purely out to lunch. I realize you have a lot of experience, but me thinks it is time you may want to go back to the books. Change of powder will change the PRESSURE significantly, which in turn changes the VELOCITY. But the velocity calculated against the bullet parameters, barrel length, will still calculate the pressure very close.
Sorry my bad
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  #33  
Old 02-25-2021, 05:33 PM
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This thread is about the 6.5x55 SE, not all cartridges. That's pretty basic, isn't it?
The post is specifically about the Swedish 96 Mauser and the 6.5x55 cartridge.
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  #34  
Old 02-25-2021, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Sashi View Post
That's a crock.
Go load the program, and check the results against existing reloading data, You'll find the results are very close regardless of powder, Your variations of 10% or more are purely out to lunch. I realize you have a lot of experience, but me thinks it is time you may want to go back to the books. Change of powder will change the velocity significantly, which in turn changes the pressure. But the velocity calculated against the bullet parameters, barrel length, will still calculate the pressure very close.
If you load several powders to the same pressure, you will not get the same velocity with each powder. Look at any manual, and the max velocity will usually vary 10% or more from powder to powder at similar pressure. We aren't getting higher velocities with the newer powders because we are are loading to higher pressures, we are getting higher velocities with similar pressures, because of the burning characteristics of the new powders..
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  #35  
Old 02-25-2021, 06:01 PM
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If you load several powders to the same pressure, you will not get the same velocity with each powder. Look at any manual, and the max velocity will usually vary 10% or more from powder to powder at similar pressure. We aren't getting higher velocities with the newer powders because we are are loading to higher pressures, we are getting higher velocities with similar pressures.
Don't eat that Elmer it's Horse pucky.

http://www.closefocusresearch.com/ca...ty-gun-systems
Check out this company and their credentials, I am sure they don't support this program because it's garbage. But if they are wrong I'm sure you could straighten them out.
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  #36  
Old 02-25-2021, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If you load several powders to the same pressure, you will not get the same velocity with each powder. Look at any manual, and the max velocity will usually vary 10% or more from powder to powder at similar pressure.
Physics .. equal pressure and equal resistance results in equal velocity ..Various charge weights, various burn rates, various load densities equals various pressures, which equals various velocities. Have you actually tried loading different powders in the same case, for the same firearm with the same resistance and realized equal pressures /velocities ?
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  #37  
Old 02-25-2021, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Physics .. equal pressure and equal resistance results in equal velocity ..Various charge weights, various burn rates, various load densities equals various pressures, which equals various velocities. Have you actually tried loading different powders in the same case, for the same firearm with the same resistance and realized equal pressures /velocities ?
Have you ever heard of a pressure curve? While the peak pressure may be the same, the pressure curve varies, which provides varying velocity.
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  #38  
Old 02-25-2021, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
If you load several powders to the same pressure, you will not get the same velocity with each powder. Look at any manual, and the max velocity will usually vary 10% or more from powder to powder at similar pressure.
Physics .. equal pressure and equal resistance results in equal velocity ..Various charge weights, various burn rates, various load densities equals various pressures, which equals various velocities. Have you actually tried loading different powders in the same case, for the same firearm with the same resistance and realized equal pressures /velocities ?
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  #39  
Old 02-25-2021, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Physics .. equal pressure and equal resistance results in equal velocity ..Various charge weights, various burn rates, various load densities equals various pressures, which equals various velocities. Have you actually tried loading different powders in the same case, for the same firearm with the same resistance and realized equal pressures /velocities ?
Have you actually looked in a loading manual where they list the actual peak pressure of each load? Why do you suppose two loads can produce the same peak pressure, and yet produce different velocities with the same bullet? This happens because although the peak pressure is the same, the pressure curve is different. One powder produces pressures closer to peak pressure for a longer duration, which results in more total energy being used to accelerate the bullet.

Here is a chart from my Hodgdon manual which shows the actual pressures of some loads, notice that some powders produce more velocity with less peak pressure. H4831 actually produces 338fps more than h322, while producing 1800cup less. That is a difference of around 14% velocity wise, while producing over 3% less pressure. If you doubt the numbers, take it up with Hodgdon, they produce the powders, as well as the manual, so they should know what they are talking about. I used 30-06 data, because they didn't list the pressures for the 6.5x55.

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  #40  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Have you actually looked in a loading manual where they list the actual peak pressure of each load? Why do you suppose two loads can produce the same peak pressure, and yet produce different velocities with the same bullet? This happens because although the peak pressure is the same, the pressure curve is different. One powder produces pressures closer to peak pressure for a longer duration, which results in more total energy being used to accelerate the bullet.
Peak pressure is only part of the equation and usually takes place in the first three or four inches of barrel length. The remaining barrel length provides for most of the continuing pressure curve and resistance and the resulting projectile velocity , even though the peak pressure may take place at roughly the same time, the peaks will be different as will the duration.
Isn't a modest continuing pressure curve provided by the expanding gasses of a slower burning powder while a spikey pressure curve is the result of a powder with a faster burn rate ? I'm not looking for an answer, that's just how I see it.

Carry on !
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  #41  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:16 PM
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How does varget do this in the .223!


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  #42  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Peak pressure is only part of the equation and usually takes place in the first three or four inches of barrel length. The remaining barrel length provides for most of the continuing pressure curve and resistance and the resulting projectile velocity , even though the peak pressure may take place at roughly the same time, the peaks will be different as will the duration.
Isn't a modest continuing pressure curve provided by the expanding gasses of a slower burning powder while a spikey pressure curve is the result of a powder with a faster burn rate ? I'm not looking for an answer, that's just how I see it.

Carry on !
I will let the Hodgdon data that I posted speak for itself. They produce the powders and the manual, so they are much more qualified experts than any of us here.
Their H322 and H4831 data says all that needs to be said. 14% more velocity, while producing 3% less pressure.
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  #43  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:22 PM
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How does varget do this in the .223!


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Once again, the highest pressure, doesn't produce the greatest velocity.
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  #44  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:43 PM
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Once again, the highest pressure, doesn't produce the greatest velocity.
Right ! Highest pressure produces the quickest pressure. Often too quick.
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  #45  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Right ! Highest pressure produces the quickest pressure. Often too quick.
So what happened to this:

Quote:
Physics .. equal pressure and equal resistance results in equal velocity
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  #46  
Old 02-25-2021, 07:51 PM
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Just a side note for those who wish to convert CUP to PSI. Not exact, but fairly close..

1.516 x CUP minus 17,902
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  #47  
Old 02-25-2021, 08:09 PM
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Was just reading, maybe the Swedish Mauser isn’t the weak link.

I read that the Norwegian Krag rifle is the weak link.

If saami specs came out after the fact, they would have had to take pressure considerations for all rifles and actions in existence with all chamberings and if a bunch of weaker rifles were kicking around then that’s what the pressure would have to be based on
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  #48  
Old 02-25-2021, 08:14 PM
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Was just reading, maybe the Swedish Mauser isn’t the weak link.

I read that the Norwegian Krag rifle is the weak link.

If saami specs came out after the fact, they would have had to take pressure considerations for all rifles and actions in existence with all chamberings and if a bunch of weaker rifles were kicking around then that’s what the pressure would have to be based on
Some manuals have two sets of data for the 6.5x55, and up to three for the 45-70, depending on the rifle you have.
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  #49  
Old 02-25-2021, 08:39 PM
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So what happened to this:



Not a thing ! Add equal resistance
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  #50  
Old 02-25-2021, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I will let the Hodgdon data that I posted speak for itself. They produce the powders and the manual, so they are much more qualified experts than any of us here.
Their H322 and H4831 data says all that needs to be said. 14% more velocity, while producing 3% less pressure.

Wowsers ,comparing H322 with H4831.Now your're really reaching for it, aren't you? Nice try.
Like Sashi suggested... it's time to get back to the basics ,my man.
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  #51  
Old 02-25-2021, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
Wowsers ,comparing H322 with H4831.Now your're really reaching for it, aren't you? Nice try.
Like Sashi suggested... it's time to get back to the basics ,my man.
I just compared the data they listed, and it proves that different powders produce different velocities at similar pressures, which is why any calculation that doesn't account for powder, is at best a rough guess.
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  #52  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:30 AM
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Default pressure graph for write up below

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  #53  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:35 AM
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Last edited by Sashi; 02-26-2021 at 12:00 PM.
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  #54  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:40 AM
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Default 2nd pressure graph

https://i.imgur.com/rwoDVJF.jpg
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  #55  
Old 02-26-2021, 11:56 AM
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Default Pressure

Pressure

This is a graph of a simulation of the 5.56 mm NATO round, being fired from a 20-inch (510 mm) barrel. The horizontal axis represents time, the vertical axis represents pressure (green line), bullet travel (red line), and bullet velocity (light blue line). The values shown at top are peak values
Energy is imparted to the bullet in a firearm by the pressure of the gases produced by the burning gunpowder. While it seems to casual observers that a higher peak pressures should produce higher velocities, that is not always the case, since measures of peak pressure capture only a small fraction of the time the bullet is accelerating. To achieve maximum performance, the entire duration of the bullet's travel through the barrel must be considered.

There are hundreds of powders in existence because powders must be carefully matched to the case volume, case dimensions, bullet dimensions, bullet weight, barrel length, and special bullet features such as moly coating or driving bands. For example, long, heavy bullets are required to be seated so deep in the case that they displace powder, while at the same time requiring a slower powder which gives their greater mass more time to move down the barrel. If the bullet is banded or coated with a lubricant like moly, faster powders can be used as the bullet moves faster due to decreased friction with the barrel. All of these variables must be accommodated within the maximum pressure levels set for the platform. Finding the optimum combination is largely a trial and error process, and may take years to complete. New cartridges with significantly new internal ballistics often bring forth new powders engineered to maximize performance; examples of this are Accurate Arms 2230, designed for use in the .223 Remington, and #9, designed for use in magnum pistol cartridges[1][2].


Pressure vs distance traveled

This graph shows different pressure curves for powders with different burn rates. The leftmost graph is the same as the large graph above. The middle graph shows a powder with a 25% faster burn rate, and the rightmost graph shows a powder with a 20% slower burn rate.
Using powder that is too fast creates a destructive pressure spike that usually has a very short duration. Using powder that is too slow produces poor energy and leaves a lot of unburned powder.


Peak vs area
Energy is defined as a force exerted over a distance; for example, the work required to lift a one-pound weight, one foot against the pull of gravity defines a foot-pound of energy (lifting one newton, one meter gives one newton-meter of energy, called one joule). If we were to modify the graph to reflect pressure as a function of distance, the area under that curve would be the total energy imparted to the bullet. From this, it can be seen that the way to increase the energy of the bullet is to increase the area under that curve, either by raising the average pressure, or increasing the distance, the bullet travels under pressure (in other words, lengthen the barrel).

My summary of the above Closed Focus Research right up.
As you can see there is a difference between peak pressure and barrel pressure. Peak pressure may be much higher with fast burning powders, and can be very destructive. they occur in the first few inches of the barrel, where most pressure readings are taken. This is the reason we check for pressure signs when testing reloads, and back off when we see any. On the other hand the velocity of the bullet is directly related to the average barrel Pressure.
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  #56  
Old 02-26-2021, 08:46 PM
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Default Brass?

What I havent seen anyone talk about is brass quality. What difference would using Lapua brass make on this discussion.
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  #57  
Old 02-26-2021, 09:54 PM
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What I havent seen anyone talk about is brass quality. What difference would using Lapua brass make on this discussion.
I used Norma, Lapua, Winchester, Federeal and Hornady. Don't see any real difference. Non lasts more than 5x consistently. Cleared all inventory in 6.5x55 and ordered another batch of Winchester brass.
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  #58  
Old 02-28-2021, 10:50 AM
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For what it is worth Elkhunter11 is right different powders at the same pressure give different velocities. Salvee your equal resitance is the barrel not the powders pressure curve. When the big companies test loads it is with the same rifle for all the data per bullet weight. Some companies may change primers while gathering their data but very few.
I too thought it was a brass or case weakness problem with the 6.5x55 but I think it is a few weak rifles. Although I have an old Speer manual that has hotter loads in it for the military rifles than the newer Nosler manual has for modern rifles.
I like the 6.5x55 and wish I knew what pressure the modern rifles are to be loaded to. It should by all rights shoot faster than the 260 Rem and 6.5 CM but load data says no. If we look at that though the 270 Win is loaded to 65000 PSI and the 280 Rem only to 60000 PSI. Why they are loaded in the same kinds of rifles on the same case design.
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  #59  
Old 02-28-2021, 11:47 AM
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I used Norma, Lapua, Winchester, Federeal and Hornady. Don't see any real difference. Non lasts more than 5x consistently. Cleared all inventory in 6.5x55 and ordered another batch of Winchester brass.
I disagree Lapua is great stuff, not for the average loader but if your chasing precision, (there is a reason most if not all bench/precision guy's use it).

As for the other makes of brass they ALL work well. My hunting brass, I have multiple calibers which have 20-30 firings with no special prep work. But then again I don't chase the fastest velocities on the planet.. most if not all of my hunting /varmint rounds are loaded right in the middle of the recommended loads in the reloading manuals.

Lower pressures = longer brass/ barrel life.
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  #60  
Old 02-28-2021, 04:26 PM
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For what it is worth Elkhunter11 is right different powders at the same pressure give different velocities. Salvee your equal resitance is the barrel not the powders pressure curve. When the big companies test loads it is with the same rifle for all the data per bullet weight. Some companies may change primers while gathering their data but very few.
I too thought it was a brass or case weakness problem with the 6.5x55 but I think it is a few weak rifles. Although I have an old Speer manual that has hotter loads in it for the military rifles than the newer Nosler manual has for modern rifles.
I like the 6.5x55 and wish I knew what pressure the modern rifles are to be loaded to. It should by all rights shoot faster than the 260 Rem and 6.5 CM but load data says no. If we look at that though the 270 Win is loaded to 65000 PSI and the 280 Rem only to 60000 PSI. Why they are loaded in the same kinds of rifles on the same case design.
The way to estimate Muzzle velocity is to use measure muzzle exit pressure, not peak pressure. All else being equal , if exit pressures are equal , muzzle velocities will be equal.
I have yet to find two different powders, meeting the same resistance, that have identical muzzle pressures.
I can use a lot of different powders that produce identical chamber pressures, just by varying the charge weights but not so with muzzle pressure. Muzzle velocity begins at the muzzle. Peak pressures are noted for safety reasons, nothing else and corresponding muzzle velocities are only an approximation based on the various powder burn rates.
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